Sisters, you need to be aware that concerted efforts are being made to confuse your instinct and your good judgement on a range of issues, so that you can be got for cheap!
Someone wrote in recently sneering at some sisters here for being worried about their advancing age and needing to secure themselves a relationship before it was too late. She said the tone of the blog was desperate and implied that this was an unnatural, and shamimg response.
Now my first thought towards her entry was, “Oh dear, I really don’t want us to appear desperate”, however I had a thought override, and I said to myself, “Why shouldn’t I be concerned if I am forty and haven’t married and had children (when this is what I have always wanted), why am I and we bw being made to feel that our anxiety is an unnatural reaction that needs to be 'suppressed'. I have a cousin who turns forty next month and she has real anxieties in this regard, why is her concern and that of women like her being scoffed at? Indeed, every other woman on earth would be understood for worrying at 40 and any action taken at this point (and at 70% singleness!) would be granted them, but not black women, because perhaps we are not human beings with blood in their veins; we are robots, we must be stoic and unruffled. And so our natural, normal healthy responses are denied us. Thank goodness another sister echoed my internal thinking and responded:
If a woman is 42 and she wants to have a family and has been unsuccessful so far doing what she has been doing, what is wrong with her changing her approach to get what she wants? What is wrong with that? People have gotten married for far less noble reasons than to have a husband and family.
You see, some sisters are emancipating themselves from the manipulations of those in the community that want to make us too strong for our own good! Folks want us to question ourselves for having normal reactions to situations and feel these are unnatural or disproportionate, and our legitimate and healthy wants, needs and desires ( which are not in anyway dissimilar to that displayed by women all over the world) are an aberration. I mentioned in the anniversary post that bw are beginning to be 'psychologically prepared' to take further cuts in the area of relatinships. Doctines are being 'spun' to get us to normalise and be more accepting of all sorts of dysfunctions and worsening situations with bm, because this is the only way the black community responds to bw needs; by getting them to endure more rather than unyoke them from the unfair demands of community servitude at this point, and giving them their blessing to find happiness.
Note their reactions:
70% singleness? "So what, the Sheroro tribe of north eastern Timbucktu has 76% singleness!" (in other words, why are you making a big deal of nothing)
“What! you want a man who went to college like you! Girl you are way too superficial, what’s up with that?
Or you say you find George Clooney attractive and they say “Ewwww” ie you seeing a white guy as attractive is somewhat unnatural! On this last point alone, many of you have stories to tell on how your sanity was questioned because you found a wm who was obviously and clearly good looking, attractive!
These types of reactions recalibrate our normal instincts and confuses our internal compass as bw, and this can be as dangerous as removing a human beings natural pain receptors and thus impairing their ability to detect when we are seriously injured. So many sisters have had their internal wires confused that their initially healthy logic becomes warped. Thats why to some sisters a busted man is ‘still worth consideration’, an abuser, is not written off, and a trifling man who announces his approach with bells and whistles still is taken in.
Notice how some folks reactions never matches the urgency of your situation. When you cried about reaching 35 with no immediate prospects, they tried to make you feel ashamed to be rightly concerned about your situation and feel you were not a 'woman of faith'. 70% singleness in the community, they shrug shoulders and tell you to pass the salt. Your head is bleeding from an assault, they respond as if you had arrived to chat about the weather. Worse still, you were raped and they found a way to bring it back to it being your fault. Indeed I sometimes fear for where sisters go for help because many times, folks will give you advice not to rescue you, but to reinforce you take more 'punches' or stay hanging on to some unrealistic dream, because paramount to them is not your well-being, but you staying in the place mapped out for you e.g. within your race or by the side of a bm no matter how abusive.
Why does the community play mind games with bw in this way? Clearly it makes bw more ‘useable’ and makes them put up with things they shouldn’t and wouldn’t in their right minds. It all comes right back to the same ‘mammy’ issue and how the society knows that it can ‘trap’ bw in eternal servitude by confusing their internal compasses and reprogramming their healthy expectations. BW end up not even taking their health and well-being into consideration because it is reprogrammed to be selfishness!
Your instincts and wits are so important in life like you will never believe! It helps you to make the right choices and the right decisions for you, but when your compass is confused, you become a prey for misusers. The worst thing is that at the end of the day, the same community will reprimand bw or laugh at bw for making faulty judgements, yet someone was there urging them against their good judgements in the first place! How many of you have not heard of how bw are blamed for ‘opening their legs’ to a trifling bm, but guess who was telling them never to look at the other options they had, therefore increasing the likelihood of Mr trifling becoming a strong contender!
Right now, many black folk are trying to force bw into silence by shaming them as being weak for expressing their fears about their dating prospects, they say, “How can you bw be so insecure/display your insecurity to the world.” And some of us are falling for it, we don’t want to speak up about issues that would make us appear less like the strong, 'together' bw we are told we should always be. However we bw should never penalise ourselves for displaying human emotions and reactions of which include insecurities and fears. Indeed why is it unnatural for us as bw to have self doubts, when we live in a society that tries its hardest to bring us down. I challenge anybody to explain to me how they expect bw can be so 'together' about everything. By owning up to our fears and insecurities we actually set ourselves on the path to overcoming!
Keep it up Halima.
ReplyDeleteExcellent post! There's so much truth in what you've written.
Wow! This is a wonderful post and a wonderful blog! Keep it up! Although, I never thought about the confused Internal Compass. Thanx a bunch!
ReplyDeleteAnother excellent post. Black Women are the pack horses of the race and are not expected to out shine the failures we call DBR Black men. We just have to be strong and endure until these men race can get their act together.
ReplyDeleteThe American Black church is patriarchal so it has a vested interest in keeping The American Black Woman where she it. There is a financial incentive. Just add up all of the money tithed by Black Women to churches each year and you can see why it is so important to keep the ladies in the fold. Black males are not in the church in large numbers and do not contribute the sums that Black women do.
And what does the Black Women get for her efforts. A chance to share the attentions of the minister, to do what she is told and to serve. Oh and by the way keep those dollars and free labor coming into the church.
I agree. Awesome post.
ReplyDelete"By owning up to our fears and insecurities we actually set ourselves on the path to overcoming!"
ReplyDeleteI agree with this wholeheartedly! I feel there is no shame in acknowledging where you are and seeking help, clarity, and new direction!
It is sad and pathetic that people will coerce bw into situations and then blame them when it doesn't work out.
I have gotten into many arguments on boards previously (prior to discovering this blog) because a lot of the black men, probably DBR BM were slamming BW for sticking by men in prison.
Although I would never be involved with that type of man, my feeling was that they were doing this to keep their families together and not to "give up" on black men as many BW are trained to do.
I saw the double talk and was irate. I mean these guys would say in one breath that BW had to save the black community and then slam women who more than likely felt they were doing just that by "supporting" their men.
I think the confused internal compass thing happens a lot. I think that is a majorly abusive tactic designed to keep a person a victim. As long as you can't make sense of or have clarity about what's happening to you or the signals/messages you are being sent- you can't take decisive action in your favor. It keeps you in a stupor, a mind fog, and it is a catch 22 that you will never win. It is a mind game. The horrible thing is that it isn't a game. The effects wreak havoc on women's lives.
Nobody is controlling bw and stopping them from dating nonbm. The bottomline is that if bw aren't dating nonbm, there are ONLY 2 reasons why, either nonbm aren't approaching, OR the type of nonbm who bw find attractive aren't approaching. It is a simple as that.
ReplyDeleteYou are coming up with all these theories that paint black people as dysfunctional just because more bw aren't dating nonbm like you would like.
You paint this picture that isn't REAL, that bw are never loved, are never respected, are never listened to, are ONLY used, are only abused, are never protected, are never etc within the black communty, and that is just not the truth.
Take the issue of the 70% single bw/lack of marriage that is happeninng in America, that stat isn't just MERELY about the wishes of bm. You have to take into account the employment levels of bm, the earning power of bm. The fact is the GREATEST PREDICTOR of whether a man will marry isn't RACE, but income, the more money a bm earns the MORE likely he is to marry, and usually a bw. In many ways, the lower marriage rates of bw are caused by increasing numbers of bm being unable to financially support a family, and IS NOT some attack against bw, sprung up by the black community to keep bw single and unhappy. It is a byproduct of the employemnt, and education discrimination that bm collectively suffer, but on here that stat is USED like a weapon, to say "see bm don't love bw, or want to marry them and this stat is PROOF of that", when in reality that stat doesn't AT ALL support the conclusions you have reached. The same with your black people are stopping bw from dating nonbm idea, the ONLY proof you have of such a thing is based on the fact that the ir dating/marriage levels for bm and bw are different. So according to YOU defacto that means black people are stopping bw from doing what bm do.
Nothing could be further from the truth, the reality is that because of racism and sexism, NONBM view bw in a bad light, this has NOTHING to do with bm/black people and everything to do with the racism and sexism that NONBM engage in. Because of sexism or socialization the things that make MEN good marriage partners to women are different qualities than what men value in women. Men are much more appreciated for their earning ability, their financial prowess, where as women are valued for their beauty and femininity. IF you have sexist/racist culture that devalues the beauty of bw then OF COURSE fewer nonbm will be willing to marry bw than nonbw willing to marry bm, merely because the bm can do things within this racist culture to improve their standing in the eyes of a VERY SMALL percentage of nonbw that leads to more bm marrying ir than bw. Again that is ALL there is to the different ir marriage rates between bm and bw, but you take it and run the Boston in creating these fantasies that black people are preventing grown women from dating non bm.
I just think that WHY do you have to mention BM so much in making your case that bw "expand their horizions". Why can't you speak about how wonderful nonbm are instead of always downing bm and the black community? In a website supposedly dedicated to ir between bw and nonbm, why are BM spoken about MUCH more frequently than those nonbm you all are interested in dating?
I have gotten into many arguments on boards previously (prior to discovering this blog) because a lot of the black men, probably DBR BM were slamming BW for sticking by men in prison.
ReplyDeleteYes, I've observed this too on boards. I think that those bm are the same types who are jealous of how SOME sistas are attracted to thugs or bad boys. LOL! That's another discussion in itself. I'll just touch on it because it's an internal compass issue.
Okay, so thugs are considered bad boys aka DBRbm, but many folks don't seem to realize that thugs are just one type of DBRbm. Some DBRbm have college degrees or other credentials or other community/societal stamps of approval and some wear 3-piece suits or some have other pseudo "good guy" covers. There are various types of bm out there these days who "SEEM" to pass inspection, so to speak. Many sistas who've dated for a while realize that many of these non-thug bm are also DBR.
So the DBR-thug blends into the DBR non-thug.
Some sistas who've dated for a while also get into this "better than the worst" mode. You hear sistas say, "At least, my man stays out of jail!" Or "At least, he only went to jail that one time."
When you have so many bm in a typical black community--or even some who are outside the community--who are in and out of prison, or "done time" it becomes NORMAL. If bw in that type of community or those who only date bm didn't date any bm who's been in prison, there would be virtually no dating/sexing going on. LOL!
Therefore, if a prison record is NORMAL, then why not stick by a bm with a prison record just like you would stick by a bm who's served time in the military or one who's gone to college. I know it sounds bizarre to people outside of "the community," but prison, military, college are pretty close in the minds of some people in the black community. Many black people in typical black enclaves do NOT elevate a bm with a college degree over a bm who's been in prison because prison is SO NORMAL for bm. A typical bm with a college degree who lives in a black community may even keep his accomplishment a secret because others will pounce on him and call him a "white boy," "soft" or a "faggot."
Just crazy, but if you interact in a typical black community, this is common knowledge. When sistas, in these settings start talking about their boyfriend, husband, or babydaddy, virtually ALL of the men have prison records. A man with a drug habit is a man you stick by. A man who hasn't worked for the last year is a man you stick by. A man who can only give you plenty good loving (sex) is a man you stick by. A man with a prison record is a man you stick by. A man who thinks that ho and bitch are pet names for you is a man you stick by.
So, just imagine how many young black girls grow up in these environments where a man with a prison record is no biggie. Many of their daddies, uncles, half-brothers, cousins, etc. have done time or are currently doing time in prison.
This really clouds the issue for a LOT of black females--most of whom are conditioned from day one to feel compassion and loyalty towards "brothas." It would be interesting to find out how many sistas on these various blogs and boards have dated men who've done time in prison. Does doing time make a bm totally off limits? Not for a lot of them.
It most definitely would for me, but I've felt free for ALL of my dating years to choose men from ALL men in the global village. I've never felt I had to compromise or settle one iota and would have NEVER considered dating a man who has done time. If you consider that MOST sistas have not felt free to do that, then it's only natural that they'll just choose men in their "black" environments, many of whom have done time. And many, many of these inmates or ex-inmates are DBRs. So of course, the typical forever-loyal sista will stick by these black men in and out of prison.
Also, whenever a typical bw even tries to become selective in her choice of bm, she's accused of being too "snooty" or "uppity". She's reminded that she has to "understand" that life is tough for a black man because of 'de evil wm'. She's pressured to relax her standards and not judge a bm by the same criteria that other women use, and just be with him simply because he's stayed out of prison or is "trying" to make it.
Now, this is just me, but in my book, ANY man has to be able to do MUCH more than "try," because have you noticed that these guys who are "trying" to make it don't want to wait until he actually makes it before he sexes you? LOL! OH NO!! He wants to sex the woman NOW, and if he doesn't "make it," then OH WELL, at least he "tried." Yeah, right! IMO, both the woman AND the man are EQUALLY responsible for pregnancy prevention, but sometimes she gets pregnant. No matter what type of contraceptive is used, pregnancies still happen--sometimes. Nature is simply going to win. LOL!
Bw avoiding pregnancy is another topic that needs to be discussed because it's just unconscionable to to me that millions of black babies are aborted every year!! This, in iself, is another cause of severe depression among sistas.
So much of this happens because SO MANY bw don't feel free to choose from among ALL men in the global village for the best mates possible. (smh) Sistas, you have the RIGHT to do this, so just do it!!
the lower marriage rates of bw are caused by increasing numbers of bm being unable to financially support a family, and IS NOT some attack against bw, sprung up by the black community to keep bw single and unhappy. It is a byproduct of the employemnt, and education discrimination that bm collectively suffer,
ReplyDeleteY'all need to STOP!! This is a CROCK!! There's nothing STOPPING the BULK of bm from going to school or getting credentials. If a man has more education and/or credentials, he can even CREATE his own employment opportunities and this happens, but FIRST he must be DISCIPLINED enough to go to school. Immigrant BLACK MEN risk their lives to come here to GO TO SCHOOL and many of them get high paying employment, marry (sometimes AA women like my Nigerian husband married me)and support their families very well. THEY don't abandon their children which means that their sons have ROLE MODELS and therefore learn better how to be husbands and fathers. These BLACK immigrant men, for the most part, DO NOT EXPECT their black wives to be able to raise those children ALL ALONE as most AA men do. These BLACK immigrant men REMAIN totally involved with their children--protecting, supporting, guiding-- even IF the relationship with the woman fails. These BLACK immigrant men are just as BLACK and some have THICK ACCENTS and other factors working against them. In 2007, AA men need to STOP blaming de evil wm even if they stub their toe!!
Also, MANY times when AA men do get their credentials and "move on up," THEY DISCRIMINATE AGAINST AA WOMEN. It's interesting that you didn't mention that as a reason why some sistas are still in the 70% single stat. These "brothas" select out white and other nonblack women, and I don't want to hear that ONLY 10-15% of AA men marry out. That's a WHOPPING BIG number when AA women have a 70% single rate!! This is like feeding someone else's children when your own children are starving to death!!
Sistas, this is why I and some other sistas are ADVOCATING that bw MUST NOT support or defend ANY AA man who invests his resources (that the AA community has helped him to get)in any other community. We must not support or defend men who don't support and defend us.
The fact is that many AA women have been CONDITIONED to stick by AA men. Yes, racism and discrimination against AA women by some nonblack men does play a part in the low bf-other man marriage rates, BUT I also KNOW that MANY AA women don't even consider that they SHOULD "betray" bm by looking at other men. We've been taught not to even see wm as attractive. We were taught this EXTREMELY WELL as regards white men, in particular. This is why white men were INVISIBLE to me as romantic partners for a while. I didn't even give them a chance with me. I rebuffed them and I see many sistas doing that STILL--both mentally and physically. I have sistas who write to me every day confiding in me that they find wm attractive, as if they're going to get arrested if they shouted this out to the world.
So there are various overlapping factors that keep down the rates of AA women outmarrying. It's not ONLY that white men (the largest group of potentially available non-AA men) are not interested as you're still trying to sell here.
Y'all need to STOP!! This is a CROCK!! There's nothing STOPPING the BULK of bm from going to school or getting credentials.
ReplyDeleteMy comments: Yes, there is. For every level of education, and job skill level bm are paid less, more likely to be underemployed(in jobs that based on their education and skills are below what they should have), and UNEMPLOYED than wm with similar education and job skills. Now how is it possible that bm AT EVERY LEVEL of education and jobs skills would be more unemployed than their white counterparts? There is clearly employment discrimination going on(this not only effects bm, but bw also).
If a man has more education and/or credentials, he can even CREATE his own employment opportunities and this happens,
My comments: True, more educated men have more opportunities, but IN America over 70% of wm DON'T have college degrees, and aren't well educated. Yet their employment, earnings, have not suffered the same fate as bm's. Again we want to tell bm to get educated without LOOKING at the large amount of wm who only have a high school diploma and who have been able to secure employment. Why aren't black people afforded that same opportunity? Lastly EVEN educated bm EARN less than similarly educated wm, even EDUCATED bm are more UNEMPLOYED than similarly educated wm. So just saying get an education doesn't address any of those over riding issues. Issues that DO prevent more bm from a financial standpoint of being able to marry.
but FIRST he must be DISCIPLINED enough to go to school. Immigrant BLACK MEN risk their lives to come here to GO TO SCHOOL and many of them get high paying employment, marry (sometimes AA women like my Nigerian husband married me)and support their families very well. THEY don't abandon their children which means that their sons have ROLE MODELS and therefore learn better how to be husbands and fathers. These BLACK immigrant men, for the most part, DO NOT EXPECT their black wives to be able to raise those children ALL ALONE as most AA men do. These BLACK immigrant men REMAIN totally involved with their children--protecting, supporting, guiding-- even IF the relationship with the woman fails. These BLACK immigrant men are just as BLACK and some have THICK ACCENTS and other factors working against them. In 2007, AA men need to STOP blaming de evil wm even if they stub their toe
MY words: I am not going to engage in the false idea pitting of immigrant bm and native born black American men against one another. First, these are 2 different populations with different histories, not only that many immigrants are a self selected population, and therefore it is disingenious to compare a few men with MILLIONS of men. That would be like saying that Chinese immigrants represent the chinese people in TOTAL, when in fact that is not the case. The only way to compare native born bm and bm who are immigrants, is that you have to compare ALL of the bm from each group, not a small sample of one vs, the whole of the other.
Plus your need to lie on bm is very annoying. Most bm have NOT abandoned their children, most bm DO marry, and most bm Don't think that a woman should raise their chldren alone. Again, why the need to stereotype bm? Why are bm and the women who "might" like bm the main targets for scorn and judgement?
@Anon--who's trying to make the case for the po' underpaid bm and underemployed bm, then why don't these men keep their zippers up? If y'all and your mammy supporters can argue so forcefully that you cannot afford to make, defend, and support your babies, then why are you out there getting them? Some of y'all keep blaming the babymamas, calling the women all kinds of names. Y'all don't cut these sistas any slack, yet y'all keep blaming de evil wm and want folks to have a pity party for you for pulling down your zippers when you KNOW you're not able to deal with the consequences of effing. LOL! You simply don't care what you put those poor aborted infants and abandoned and neglected black children through.
ReplyDeleteThis is EXACTLY one of my points. See this is the crux of the matter!! If so many bm are going to keep blaming de evil wm for their failures, just EVERYTHING, as many of them do, then sistas become surrounded by a sea of DBRbm. Why would any bw with any kind of smarts even want to be bothered with one of these whining bm? Whining does not feed children or pay the bills!! This is is just why I always kept these whining men at a distance.
Any black female and virtually all other woman who have been taught to evaluate men want a man who can produce!! Not whiners. Yet many of the bm who have been supported by the black community to produce, don't choose to produce for black women. LOL! But bw are pressured to "understand" why bm can't or don't produce, but still open her legs and give these "brothas" a chance. This is just why so many sistas get caught up out there. (smh)
And as for those black immigrant men--those men are STILL BLACK. You're claiming racial discrimination. You can't have it both ways. Nothing erases their BLACKness!! They face discrimination just like all other black people!! But they still find a way in this big country that is flowing with all kinds of opportunities. I see some of those immigrant men selling "legal" products at large flea markets to create capital for other ventures. Most often, they even have their sons with them. AA men could do this instead of selling drugs to poison, debilitate and kill their own folks. Y'all apologists for DBRbm need to go among them and TEACH them things like that instead of coming here in the midst of us women who have moved on.
Those men are the ones who need you whereever they congregate and whine. You're not needed here.
Women who have been taught to evaluate men want men who can find a way!!
And all of these apologizers for the DBRbm on all of the blogs, sites, boards where all of these bm hang out need to go on there and tell these men to LEARN how to maneuver in this system. Tell them to go to school DESPITE de evil wm. Tell them to guide, support, and protect their black children. Tell them DON'T ABANDON their children, NO MATTER WHAT!!! According to all the stats, most AA children DO grow up in single parent homes that the dads have ABANDONED!! If I'm wrong about that, I'll be thrilled to hear it!
the lower marriage rates of bw are caused by increasing numbers of bm being unable to financially support a family, and IS NOT some attack against bw, sprung up by the black community to keep bw single and unhappy. It is a byproduct of the employemnt, and education discrimination that bm collectively suffer
ReplyDelete___________________________________
This is true in part, but only in part. After all, as Evia pointed out, black immigrant men, and certainly Hispanic men as well, also face discrimination in education and employment--and yet they still marry in much higher proportions than AA men.
One important difference is that,
(1) these men come from cultures in which marriage is considered a healthy, expected part of a normal, happy adulthood, and
(2) these men don't view the women in their group as the "enemy," goldiggers out to "stick them for their paper," bitches and hoes unworthy of common human decency, let alone love, respect and a lifelong commitment.
The reality is that DBRBM have an incredibly negative view of marriage, an incredibly negative view of black women, and are detached from black children and the black family--to a much greater extent than other men. These viewpoints are not simply the byproduct of reduced employment opportunities or discrimination in education.
There has arisen among DBRBM an almost boarderline sociopathic mentality with a singular focus on "getting mine," that ranks other human beings by their potential for exploitation and the value accorded them by the larger society. In this ranking, black women and children are at the bottom.
If decent, responsible BM are unwilling to face and confront the destructive force that DBRBM wreck inside our community, then you can no longer make a claim to be decent and responsible. You need to be just as resolute in confronting internalized racism as you are in pointing out it's external manifestations.
And yes, Halima, the "po' black man" is exactly one of the chief tactics used to make the internal compass of a typical bw go crazy. This is EXACTLY what this Anon is using. Yet the po' black man is definitely out there trying to sex bw and become a babydaddy.
ReplyDeleteSistas, beware of the "po' black man tactic" because one thing that's virtually certain is that if that po' black man EVER becomes a rich black man or even one with a few pennies, the chances are that he mos def won't be looking at you!!
@Anon--who's trying to make the case for the po' underpaid bm and underemployed bm, then why don't these men keep their zippers up?
ReplyDeleteMy words: Most bm take care of their children. So I don't know where you getting that I advocate that any of what you have written. My point is as sound as can be. Income is a MAJOR determinant of marriage in men, and that employment discrimnination has an aggregae impact on the earning power, educational opportunities, umemployment rates of bm, which adversly impacts their ability to marry, which inflates the number of unmarried bw. This is simply a point rooted in FACT.
If y'all and your mammy supporters
My words: Is the name calling necessary?
can argue so forcefully that you cannot afford to make, defend, and support your babies, then why are you out there getting them?
My words: I think you are unaware of certain facts. Right now 40.5% of bw ages 15-44 are childless, probably a similar percentage of bm are CHILDLESSS as well. The marriage rate for bw is about 30%, that means that right now 60% of bw are either married or single and childless. The birth rate for unmarried bw is at a 40 year low. Not to mention the women who are divorced, seperated, widowed. Most bw are not being abandoned. In fact right now while most black children don't live in 2 parent homes, ONLY 31% of those households fit the picture of a single NEVER married bw. The other 69% consist of married couples, divorced moms and father headed households, widowed mom and dad headed households, seperated mom and dsd households, single unmarried fathers, and grandparents.
Some of y'all keep blaming the babymamas, calling the women all kinds of names. Y'all don't cut these sistas any slack,
My words: The demonization of single black mothers is indeed problematic, and some bm DO engage in that ignorance. If they do it in my presence I correct them.
yet y'all keep blaming de evil wm and want folks to have a pity party for you for pulling down your zippers when you KNOW you're not able to deal with the consequences of effing. LOL!
My words: I have no sympathy for men who don't take care of their children and neither do MOST bm.
You simply don't care what you put those poor aborted infants and abandoned and neglected black children through.
My words: That is an evil thing to say, and untrue.
This is EXACTLY one of my points. See this is the crux of the matter!! If so many bm are going to keep blaming de evil wm for their failures, just EVERYTHING, as many of them do,
My words: But I didn't do that. I was speaking about employment discrimination. Do you deny its existence? Do you think it has no impact on the ability for individual bm to earn a living? What exactly is blaming the wm when speaking about REAL discrimination that adversly impacts the lives of bm, bw, and black childrn. Understand despite this rampant employment discrimination MOST bm ARE working.
then sistas become surrounded by a sea of DBRbm. Why would any bw with any kind of smarts even want to be bothered with one of these whining bm? Whining does not feed children or pay the bills!! This is is just why I always kept these whining men at a distance.
My words: HOw is discussing how employment discrimination might impact the aggregate ability of bm to support their families, thus contribute to some bm NOT forming families, whining?
Any black female and virtually all other woman who have been taught to evaluate men want a man who can produce!! Not whiners. Yet many of the bm who have been supported by the black community to produce, don't choose to produce for black women.
My words: I don't kwow how you got out of my point that I suggest whom bw should or shouldn't date, that is for them to decide, but understand I have daughters, and as a father clearly I will impart the idea that a good man has a plan and is working towards that. In other words, I wouldn't advise any woman to get with a perpetually unemployed man.
LOL! But bw are pressured to "understand" why bm can't or don't produce, but still open her legs and give these "brothas" a chance. This is just why so many sistas get caught up out there. (smh)
My words: Again, you seem to not be responding so much to what I have written as some predetermined points you want to raise. I have not suggested any of the sort, and BLACK people don't suggest bw get involved with unemployed bm.
And as for those black immigrant men--those men are STILL BLACK. You're claiming racial discrimination.
Those black immigrant men DO suffer discrimination. I can assure you that they are paid LESS than similarly educated wm just as native born bm are. I merely am going to refrain from comparing the economic, family condition of those men to the MILLIONS of native bm that reside in this country, because that is not comparing apples to apples.
You can't have it both ways. Nothing erases their BLACKness!! They face discrimination just like all other black people!! But they still find a way in this big country that is flowing with all kinds of opportunities. I see some of those immigrant men selling "legal" products at large flea markets to create capital for other ventures. Most often, they even have their sons with them. AA men could do this instead of selling drugs to poison, debilitate and kill their own folks.
My words: Your need to associate immigrant bm with xyz characteristics, and native born bm with worst values is exactly what I am against. It is a false comparision. That ultimately lies on the behavior of both groups. I won't engage in that type of discussion.
Y'all apologists for DBRbm need to go among them and TEACH them things like that instead of coming here in the midst of us women who have moved on.
My words: Most bm are not criminals, don't need to be taught those things. If bw have moved on, why is the behavior of bm THE HOT topic on this blog? I mean I honestly came here expecting not to see bm referenced at all, but sadly that is not the case. Why is that?
Those men are the ones who need you whereever they congregate and whine. You're not needed here.
Women who have been taught to evaluate men want men who can find a way!!
And all of these apologizers for the DBRbm on all of the blogs, sites, boards where all of these bm hang out need to go on there and tell these men to LEARN how to maneuver in this system. Tell them to go to school DESPITE de evil wm. Tell them to guide, support, and protect their black children. Tell them DON'T ABANDON their children, NO MATTER WHAT!!! According to all the stats, most AA children DO grow up in single parent homes that the dads have ABANDONED!! If I'm wrong about that, I'll be thrilled to hear it!
My words: You are wrong, now you should be thrilled. The majority of bm have not abandoned their children, and don't behave in the way you imagine, but oh well.
"You are wrong, now you should be thrilled. The majority of bm have not abandoned their children, and don't behave in the way you imagine, but oh well."
ReplyDeleteSistas, be smart. Who are you going to believe? An anonymous liar on the internet or what YOU'VE seen with YOUR OWN TWO EYES and experienced personally?
meant to post it here
ReplyDeleteA blog like this is dehumanizing and anti black man, but rap, black movies, and the like aren't dehumanizing to black women even though they are produced and promoted on a global, everyday level.
This is the monster bw have helped to create -- all black man, all the time.
I think they should just be ignored. Answering them and arguing and trying to get them to see your way seems to imply that you care for their opinion or good favour. That's whay some of them come to blogs and sites like these and give their "blessing" and "support" because they feel it is needed.
There can be no autonomy if the underlying message is that some of us still need to be seen as good little women in their eyes.
Let their black, white, or whatever wife or figment of their imagination cater to them.
When they can come here and post dissertations and get immediate responses and derail from the more important topic with their tripe, they accomplish their goal. They don't want to dialogue with us, they want to disrail our dialogue.
This is the one thing they can be assured of ---always gaining audience from bw. This is the last thing you must let go of--thinking that if a bm said it it is worthy of being heard.
This is true in part, but only in part. After all, as Evia pointed out, black immigrant men, and certainly Hispanic men as well, also face discrimination in education and employment--and yet they still marry in much higher proportions than AA men.
ReplyDeleteMy words: But that part is a HUGE part. Immigrant men and women are coming at marriage/money/wealth/and what kind of lifestyle a husband is expected to provide from a different reality. The standard of living, and other basic lifestyle patterns in general are NOT as high as those in America, therefore the expectations that those immigrant men and women have are EASIRE to obtain.
Native born bm and bw have different expectations of what kind of lifestyle a husband and father should provide. So the immingrnat comparison just is not VALID in my opinion. Having written that, there is NO question that amongst bm there has been cultivated a culture that devalues marriage, that over values sexual conquest and that ultimately leads to as an unintended consequence to emotionally hurting MANY bw. There is no question that bm have to call upon ourselves more accountability in our relationships with bw, and there is NO question that bw have a RIGHT to demand that accountability.
One important difference is that,
(1) these men come from cultures in which marriage is considered a healthy, expected part of a normal, happy adulthood, and
My words: You are not seeing the big picture. In this sexist culture, men are expected to provide for their families. There can BE no denying that bm are HAMPERED in their pursuits to do that. This leads some bm to a painful realization that the MAJOR way that manhood is measured by other men, they are lacking. In part because of their own actions(maybe), but definitely because this culture is against them fulfilling that role. In that environment some bm start to find other ways to express their masculinity, and some of those ways are NOT good. So even though bm might value marriage less than other men, I think that might be because many bm FEEL that marriage from a financial standpoint is something that they might not be able to provide this upper middle class lifestyle that MANY black people expect a husband to provide.
(2) these men don't view the women in their group as the "enemy," goldiggers out to "stick them for their paper," bitches and hoes unworthy of common human decency, let alone love, respect and a lifelong commitment.
My words: Come on, you really believe that MOST bm view bw in this manner?
The reality is that DBRBM have an incredibly negative view of marriage, an incredibly negative view of black women, and are detached from black children and the black family--to a much greater extent than other men. These viewpoints are not simply the byproduct of reduced employment opportunities or discrimination in education.
There has arisen among DBRBM an almost borderline sociopath mentality with a singular focus on "getting mine," that ranks other human beings by their potential for exploitation and the value accorded them by the larger society. In this ranking, black women and children are at the bottom.
My words: Wow, some of you all are in fantasyland, with your views. I can agree that some bm are abusive towards bw and children and NEED to be stopped and called out, but that is about it.
If decent, responsible BM are unwilling to face and confront the destructive force that DBRBM wreck inside our community, then you can no longer make a claim to be decent and responsible. You need to be just as resolute in confronting internalized racism as you are in pointing out it's external manifestations.
My words: I am resolute in that bm have to do better, but I am not resolute in allowing bm to be demonized.
In fact right now while most black children don't live in 2 parent homes,
ReplyDeleteYou said these children hadn't been abandoned. You can't have it both ways.
The only parent in these cases, a black mom, is almost always struggling ALONE with the child or the children, yet many times these sistas are BLASTED for being babymamas whereas the baddydaddies are not even mentioned. BOTH a man and a woman are responsible for contraception. Neither one has more responsibility than the other to prevent unwanted pregnancies. This is certainly what we are teaching our sons. So, those black children have been ABANDONED by their black fathers. If you talk to some of these elementary age children they'll swear to you that they don't even have fathers. They don't believe it when you tell them that everybody has a biological father.
Anon, you're simply creating fiction because you don't want bw to talk about OUR experiences. This is what we do on blogs such as this. Women TALK! Talking is healing for women, but you, a man, think you should be able to dictate to us what we can talk about and what we can't. You can't. If some sistas have had bad experiences with black men, then they have freedom of expression to talk about THEIR EXPERIENCES. It's absolutely therapeutic for them to talk about their pain. I'm certainly going to talk about what I observe, what I hear, what I experience. If you can't bear this, then go away. I don't go to sites where I can't bear to read what I see. I stay away from them.
I don't understand why you, a black man, would come on a site where bw are trying to heal and move on to lecture, reprimand, and litter here with your concocted view of black life as you want it to be.
Employment discrimination? Yes, I've been a victim of it at least twice. It was very painful. I've knowingly been discriminated against by a white man once and a white woman once. I often talk about institutional racism on my blog. I've probably been discriminated against by other white folks too, but wasn't aware of it. I've also been discriminated against by black men--even one at the NAACP who refused to help me when I refused to "party with him" when I went there to file a discrimination complaint against the white male discriminator. LOL!!
Since you think you know so much about discrimination, you should KNOW that many bw are routinely discriminated against on the basis of race AND gender AND this discrimination is done against us by white folks and BLACK MEN. You only want us to focus on the pain of the bm, but I'm not the type of woman who will focus on your pain unless you also focus on mine, but this is not the place for that, however the door swings both ways. Your pain is no worse than a bw's, but so many bm won't ever acknowledge that because many bm are the ones inflicting pain on bw. So you come on here with that "po' black man tactic" just to confuse bw's internal compass.
The fact is that many bm who are gainfully employed are REFUSING to marry because they want the freedom to take advantage of the surplus of black and other women available to them, so it's a crock that de evil wm won't give any of these single bm a job and that this prevents them from proposing marriage to those sistas they're sexing. LOL!! You should realize that some sistas, like me, KNOW bm like that too, and they also contribute to that 70% single stat for bw. They REFUSE to marry.
BTW, discrimination MOTIVATES me to succeed; it doesn't motivate me to whine and fold. I'm not going to be sitting around whining about po' me. I hope you're not teaching your daughter that life is fair because it's not and this is just why I'm saying to sistas on here that if you can't find a loving, loveable, suitable, and compatible man in one place or among one group, GET UP and go find him in another place, another group. Broaden your options!! Don't sit around mad at folks. Life offers abundance in all things and particularly in men.
Sistas, be smart. Who are you going to believe? An anonymous liar on the internet or what YOU'VE seen with YOUR OWN TWO EYES and experienced personally?
ReplyDeleteMy words" They don't have to believe me, and nobody can see the behvior of MILLIONS of people. They can go to the US census website and all that I have claimed is there.
I always find it interesting how bm can find the time to defend all their misbehaviors to bw and fight and belittle bw's opinions but when it's white men and women they shut their mouths and go along.
ReplyDeleteThe same bm coming here and making a ruckus are probably the same ones telling all their white friends and lovers how f'ed up black women and people are. They're probably the blak friend cosigning this mess.
Instead of fighting wm and white supremacy for your nutsack back, they are here trying to tell bw how to think and feel despite all the personal experiences of these women.
This should clearly tell youladies how they feel about you and how unintelligent they feel you are.
This is the one thing they can be assured of ---always gaining audience from bw. This is the last thing you must let go of--thinking that if a bm said it it is worthy of being heard.
ReplyDeleteAMEN.
I think they should just be ignored. Answering them and arguing and trying to get them to see your way seems to imply that you care for their opinion or good favour. That's whay some of them come to blogs and sites like these and give their "blessing" and "support" because they feel it is needed.
ReplyDeleteThere can be no autonomy if the underlying message is that some of us still need to be seen as good little women in their eyes.
Let their black, white, or whatever wife or figment of their imagination cater to them.
So ON POINT!! I obviously agree with you, and this is why I'm in a fulfilling relationship.
I think that both these DBRbm, their mammy-mule supporters, and their apologists need to be overlooked, avoided, and ignored, but they keep intruding and actually try to dictate what you can talk about. This is why I just started deleting them from my blog. That stops them.
Even then, some write me privately, so I now just delete their messages without reading them whenever they pop up in my mailbox. Thank heavens for that delete key. LOL!! They're just like a bunch of whining gnats!
In fact right now while most black children don't live in 2 parent homes,
ReplyDeleteYou said these children hadn't been abandoned. You can't have it both ways.
My words" Come on, the father not being in the household is NOT the same as abandonment. Why do you want to equate the 2 in this manner? The bottomline is that the stereotype that most black children are being raised by single never married women is JUST not the truth. There is ample proof that divorced/sepreated men are involved in their children's lives even though they are not with the mom.
The only parent in these cases, a black mom, is almost always struggling ALONE with the child or the children, yet many times these sistas are BLASTED for being babymamas whereas the baddydaddies are not even mentioned. BOTH a man and a woman are responsible for contraception. Neither one has more responsibility than the other to prevent unwanted pregnancies. This is certainly what we are teaching our sons. So, those black children have been ABANDONED by their black fathers. If you talk to some of these elementary age children they'll swear to you that they don't even have fathers. They don't believe it when you tell them that everybody has a biological father.
My words: You are raising points I have not made, then assuming I am against or for something I have not expressed an opinion about. I have already said that single moms are unfairly attacked as immoral and are unfairly blamed for the ills of this society, and that some bm/black people participate in that tearing down of those single moms. I don't think they are more responsible than the men. I don't agree with any of those things and have stated and defended such women before.
Anon, you're simply creating fiction
My words: I have not created fiction. Again, everything I have written can be found at the US census.
because you don't want bw to talk about OUR experiences. This is what we do on blogs such as this. Women TALK! Talking is healing for women, but you, a man, think you should be able to dictate to us what we can talk about and what we can't. You can't. If some sistas have had bad experiences with black men, then they have freedom of expression to talk about THEIR EXPERIENCES. It's absolutely therapeutic for them to talk about their pain. I'm certainly going to talk about what I observe, what I hear, what I experience. If you can't bear this, then go away. I don't go to sites where I can't bear to read what I see. I stay away from them.
My words: A woman speaking about her personal experiences with abuse are one thing, coding that abuse as "bm" doing this to bw is another. One deals with the rampant sexism and the evil that some men do in abusing women. The other tries to paint abuse of bw in racial terms, that most bm engage in that behavior. That is the crux of the criticism. Why do bm have to be portrayed as demons for some bw to date nonbm?
I don't understand why you, a black man, would come on a site where bw are trying to heal and move on to lecture, reprimand, and litter here with your concocted view of black life as you want it to be.
Why are you on here? Again, I didn't know that bm weren't allowed in the blog. I didn't knoww when I first came here that the opinions of inidividual bm would be cast as this bm made control mode against bw. I saw bm BEING discussed, didn't agree with that discussion, and thought I would add my idea to the mix.
Employment discrimination? Yes, I've been a victim of it at least twice. It was very painful. I've knowingly been discriminated against by a white man once and a white woman once. I often talk about institutional racism on my blog. I've probably been discriminated against by other white folks too, but wasn't aware of it. I've also been discriminated against by black men--even one at the NAACP who refused to help me when I refused to "party with him" when I went there to file a discrimination complaint against the white male discriminator. LOL!!
MY words: Here is yet another example of you assuming that I would be against you speaking about the individual bm who discriminated against you. That man was wrong, as are all men who practice sexist hiring practicies against bw
Since you think you know so much about discrimination, you should KNOW that many bw are routinely discriminated against on the basis of race AND gender AND this discrimination is done against us by white folks and BLACK MEN. You only want us to focus on the pain of the bm, but I'm not the type of woman who will focus on your pain unless you also focus on mine, but this is not the place for that, however the door swings both ways. Your pain is no worse than a bw's, but so many bm won't ever acknowledge that because many bm are the ones inflicting pain on bw. So you come on here with that "po' black man tactic" just to confuse bw's internal compass.
My words: Again, you put thoughts and ideas onto me that I have not expressed. All I did was supply what I think is a fact based point, that the employment and educational discrimination that black endure has an adverse effect on the marriage rate of black people. I don't think there is any question that is correct. So why are you assuming that I think bm have it worse, or that I don't care about bw's pain?
The fact is that many bm who are gainfully employed are REFUSING to marry because they want the freedom to take advantage of the surplus of black and other women available to them, so it's a crock that de evil wm won't give any of these single bm a job and that this prevents them from proposing marriage to those sistas they're sexing. LOL!! You should realize that some sistas, like me, KNOW bm like that too, and they also contribute to that 70% single stat for bw. They REFUSE to marry.
My words: You are correct, that there are individual bm who make enough money to marry but don't. Now as to the reason, they don't. I don't think it is to punish bw,
There are many reasons for the declining marriage rate amongst black people, MOST of the decline is rooted in economics in my opinion.
BTW, discrimination MOTIVATES me to succeed; it doesn't motivate me to whine and fold. I'm not going to be sitting around whining about po' me. I hope you're not teaching your daughter that life is fair because it's not and this is just why I'm saying to sistas on here that if you can't find a loving, loveable, suitable, and compatible man in one place or among one group, GET UP and go find him in another place, another group. Broaden your options!! Don't sit around mad at folks. Life offers abundance in all things and particularly in men.
That is good for you, but we aren't spaking about a single individual, we are talking about a large group of men. I am talking about the aggregate effect that employment discrimination has on the MILLIONS of bm in this society. That discrimination HURTS black people, stops us, limits us, that is why we have to fight it.
"the lower marriage rates of bw are caused by increasing numbers of bm being unable to financially support a family, and IS NOT some attack against bw, sprung up by the black community to keep bw single and unhappy. It is a byproduct of the employemnt, and education discrimination that bm collectively suffer
ReplyDeleteAimee, your reply to this anon was right on target. This man's comments are countered by what is called "The Mexican Marriage Paradox" which has found that even though they are poorer than all non-white groups in the U.S. Mexicans have the highest marriage rates, even higher than whites. This underlines your point very well. Their culture is based upon the idea that healthy people need families and that pride is found in the achievement of raising a family, not just making babies.
I live in California and each day, I watch illegal immigrants who can't speak English (most are illiterate in Spanish as well)figure out a way to work and provide for their wives and children. Even more surprising, they earn less than "da po black man" because they have no skill except their strong back for hard work and no primary education. I nearly cry when I see little Mexican woman with 2-3 kids whose husbands are so proud that the woman can stay home to take care of the kids and his home. While I know that this isn't perfect for women to be subservient, I applaud those men for their sense of responsibility. Before "da po' black man" starts to whine again, many of these immigrants earn barely $10-15 per hour and most of the ones I know work 2 jobs. These men's pride would not allow them to try to live on some woman's paycheck the way that many "po black men" do. For them, the pride in being a man is tied to not whining but in making a way. These men don't seek pity, they "just do it". What makes me cry is that so many sisters can't even have find a man with that level of integrity, so after the bm has sexed them, he moves on to the next one while the bw has to be her own kids' provide and protector. How pathetic our community has become. We can't even match the work or family values of these people.
Even if a bm earns less than a white peer, that's no reason for bm to entirely abandon the concept of working for a living.
Lastly, immigrant men don't call their women "gold diggers" for raising their children and managing their households, they hold a mother in the highest esteem and she gets her respect for it. I've dated my share of hispanic men to have learned that there is a better model out there than what our community is doing. That's why hispanics are prospering while bm have double their unemployment rate.
Oops, a correction. It's called "The Mexican American Paradox". The study which cited the issue found black and hispanic men to be equally poor, and lacking in any real "human capital", yet found that Mexican-American men marry their women more often than black men marry. In fact, Mexican-American marriage rates were nearly equal to whites at 49%. Basically, it's cultural. Mexicans, backed up by Catholicism and their family structures, expect marriage and are proud of it. The paradox only seems to hold true for Mexican-Americans not other hispanics.
ReplyDeleteHalima, your post about the our internal compus is right on. I admit to being a 36 year old bw with no kids who makes great money, but I'm on my own. As I watch the clock tick down to 40, I wonder if I'll get what I want. All around me, my similarly educated bw friends who are waiting for bm are still just as single as I am. The only bw I know who have kids haven't married. People are trying to convince me to make the best of the situation by adopting and moving on without a spouse. Somehow, that seems like the least desireable option to me, but they won't listen and tell me that my goal of doing things the right way is just too lofty and will prove disappointing.
Again, I am always saddened when I see Latinas pushing a baby carriage, and can look at the young woman's wedding ring. She and her husband may be poor, but they are rich in their priorities and are doing it together. I sat on a bus yesterday in front of a young Hispanic woman who had just graduated from H.S. last month and she and her best friend were giggling about the fact that she's marrying her boyfriend in a week. I almost cried because she has more than many of us bw have since young black men don't commit nearly as much as in her culture. Why are immigrant communities better at seeing the value of families and working together to fight poverty than the black community? The answer is bm and their selfishness and obsession with calling women "gold diggers".
anon said
ReplyDeleteMost bm have NOT abandoned their children, most bm DO marry, and most bm Don't think that a woman should raise their chldren alone.
Wow Anon, I would love to get a ticket to your fantasy island because it sounds a whole lot better then the real world the rest of us live in.
I know enough about statistics to know that they can be skillfully manipulated to support any argument and that because of the limited nature of surveys like the census they tell a lot of half truths.
There is no question whatsoever that black men have failed as husbands and fathers at greater rates then any other group of men in this country. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of good bms out there (frankly you sound like a pretty thoughtful thinker). It does mean that African American men are less likely to be good partners and parents then men in other groups.
Not to mention that just because a woman is married to a black man means she's in a good relationship. The vast majority of my black friends married to black men have had to contend with infidelity, financial irresponsibility, disengagement from parenting, verbal, physical, and emotional abuse, among a host of other issues. That's not to say that men of other races don't do these things as well. But it is to say that these types of behaviors are far, far more prevalent in our community.
I know the truth hurts, but rather than arguing with the reality of the women on this board, why don't you engage your fellow black men in a dialog about what is going on within your community? In other words, clean up your own house first.
Personally I believe African American men are very wounded, afraid, and insecure which is why they behave in the way they do. Some of this is societal, some is familial, and some is just the individual choices a man has made in his life.
I have some compassion for bms pain. But I will not sacrifice my happiness to service their fragile sense of masculinity.
Black men need to stop blaming everybody under the sun, stop making excuses for their bad behavior and take steps to make the necessary changes in their lives.
I spent several years of my professional life working with young black men around these issues and you know what? Unless the desire to change and to embrace new values and behaviors comes from within, it is a big waste of time.
Again, you sound like a thoughtful brother. Your battle is not with the women on this board, it is within your own community of men.
Aimee, your reply to this anon was right on target. This man's comments are countered by what is called "The Mexican Marriage Paradox" which has found that even though they are poorer than all non-white groups in the U.S.
ReplyDeleteMy words, I already addressed that issue, and why the comparision is an invalid one, but understand that what you are doing by holding up Mexican American men as above, better than bm, is the SAMETHING that many ignorant bm do to bw when they hold nonbw as being "better" than bw. We have got to stop doing that to ourselves. There are simply explainations that don't reside in our race to example these differences, but if you want to believe Mexican American men are better be my guest.
Mexicans have the highest marriage rates, even higher than whites. This underlines your point very well. Their culture is based upon the idea that healthy people need families and that pride is found in the achievement of raising a family, not just making babies.
I live in California and each day, I watch illegal immigrants who can't speak English (most are illiterate in Spanish as well)figure out a way to work and provide for their wives and children. Even more surprising, they earn less than "da po black man" because they have no skill except their strong back for hard work and no primary education. I nearly cry when I see little Mexican woman with 2-3 kids whose husbands are so proud that the woman can stay home to take care of the kids and his home. While I know that this isn't perfect for women to be subservient, I applaud those men for their sense of responsibility. Before "da po' black man" starts to whine again, many of these immigrants earn barely $10-15 per hour and most of the ones I know work 2 jobs. These men's pride would not allow them to try to live on some woman's paycheck the way that many "po black men" do. For them, the pride in being a man is tied to not whining but in making a way. These men don't seek pity, they "just do it". What makes me cry is that so many sisters can't even have find a man with that level of integrity, so after the bm has sexed them, he moves on to the next one while the bw has to be her own kids' provide and protector. How pathetic our community has become. We can't even match the work or family values of these people.
Even if a bm earns less than a white peer, that's no reason for bm to entirely abandon the concept of working for a living.
MY words: That was not my point. Again, you have to look at the big picture. There are MILLIONS of bm in this country, if at every level bm are more likely denied employment no matter their education, if bm are underpaid, etc, that has an aggregate effect of LOWER The earnings OF ALL bm. So a consequence of that is that fewer bm are able to fulfill that role. This is NOT about excuses. This is about recognizing a HUGE part of the problem and thinking of ways to correct/combat it. For the last time black Americans both men and women are NOT willing to be with a partner and experience the levels of poverty that MANY Mexican American families, because they come from a different country don't see as being all that poor. This means that both the husband and the wife don't EXPECT the husband to provide this upper middle class lifestyle. With bm and bw, WE expect that of potential husbands, a man who is poor and with a job as MOST bm are is NOT necessarily seen by women or by bm as a good husband.
Lastly, immigrant men don't call their women "gold diggers" for raising their children and managing their households, they hold a mother in the highest esteem and she gets her respect for it. I've dated my share of hispanic men to have learned that there is a better model out there than what our community is doing. That's why hispanics are prospering while bm have double their unemployment rate.
My words: Sadly, you are romanticizing Mexican Immigrant families. This is not done to put Mexican people down, but YOU really ought to check their oow birth rates, their divorce rates, their educational attainment rates. Mexican men are NOT doing better than bm. Not that this is a competition between the 2 groups of men.
Annon Male, I think this article supports your argument. Below is an excerpt.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/us/06marry.html?ex=1183953600&en=1d6d86f0102bc276&ei=5070
Once, virtually all Americans had married by their mid-40’s. Now, many American men without college degrees find themselves still single as they approach middle age.
Doug Thomas, 45, has concentrated more on job responsibilities and earnings than on finding a wife.
About 18 percent of men ages 40 to 44 with less than four years of college have never married, according to census estimates. That is up from about 6 percent a quarter-century ago. Among similar men ages 35 to 39, the portion jumped to 22 percent from 8 percent in that time.
At virtually every level of education, fewer Americans are marrying. But the decline is most pronounced among men with less education. Even marriage rates among female professionals over 40 have stabilized in recent years.
The decline in marriage can be traced to many factors, experts say, including the greater economic independence of women and the greater acceptance of couples living together outside of marriage.
For men without higher education, though, dwindling prospects in the labor market have made a growing percentage either unwilling to marry or unable to find someone to marry them.
"My words: Sadly, you are romanticizing Mexican Immigrant families. This is not done to put Mexican people down, but YOU really ought to check their oow birth rates, their divorce rates, their educational attainment rates. Mexican men are NOT doing better than bm. Not that this is a competition between the 2 groups of men."
ReplyDeleteDear "po black man", you missed the point. It was, that even doing just as poorly as bm, Mexican men still do one thing right, they MARRY their women. As for the negatives, they are real, and the research suggests that the divorse rates and out of wedlock births increase as they "assimilate" to the U.S. So, if the African man is still doing right and the Mexican man does too, then maybe the marriage problem is a byproduct of American culture which presents itself in DBR bm.
As for the poster who gave you an "assist", an overall decline in marriage among 18% of all men (the stat seems to apply to all American men, not bm) does not explain the disparity of 70% of bw in America being single.
"Could there be another reason why you're still single ... such as obesity?
ReplyDeleteMost men (of any race) are not attracted to fat women. It's the sad truth just like women don't give short men the time of day."
And now you've shown your true colors. You really are a DBR bm. You had to insult me when you couldn't make your arguement. By the way, have seen the Latina women, they are big women and thier men still don't discriminate against them. Why is that?
Wow Anon, I would love to get a ticket to your fantasy island because it sounds a whole lot better then the real world the rest of us live in.
ReplyDeleteMy words: Not fantasy, but reality. Not to say that WE don't have way too many children and women who are abandoeed, but it is NOT most. Why is that so hard to acknownledge?
I know enough about statistics to know that they can be skillfully manipulated to support any argument and that because of the limited nature of surveys like the census they tell a lot of half truths.
My words: I don't support blind faith in stats, but how else are we to judge the things that are spoken about concering black people? I didn't post stats to show bm in a good light. I posted statst that also should that RIGHT now about 60% of bw are not simgle never married moms. I don't think that is manipulation.
There is no question whatsoever that black men have failed as husbands and fathers at greater rates then any other group of men in this country.
My word: These racial comparisions that are done with out TAKING race into to account are perplexing to me. These same charges can be leveled at bw as a group. What would that prove? The bottomline is that bm as a group HAVE been collectively DENIED THe VERY things that MAKE marriage more likely. Again lets, look at this from a logical perspective. Throw out race, lets just look at what is know about marriage. Poor peole tend to get married less frequently, have less satisfying marriages, and tend to get divorced at higher rates. Are bm and bw poorer than the average American? Yes, what effect DO YOU think that has on our marriages?
Less educated people tend to marry less, have less satifying marriages, and higher rates of divorce. Again are bm and bw less educated than the average American? Yes, so what effect do you think that has on black marriage rates? Do you understand? To state that bm have failed as fathers/ husbands at greater levels than others without looking at REALITY is just not correct.
That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of good bms out there (frankly you sound like a pretty thoughtful thinker). It does mean that African American men are less likely to be good partners and parents then men in other groups.
I don't know about that, but what difference does it make? In the end, do you REALLY think that given this HIGHLY segregated, highly RACIST SOciety called America that either bm or bw WILL not be the ones who Marry each other most frequently? We have to work together. Now understand, I am not telling any individual bw who she should date that is her choice. I am not against ir dating/marriage. So for those bw who want that, they should have those relationships.
Not to mention that just because a woman is married to a black man means she's in a good relationship. The vast majority of my black friends married to black men have had to contend with infidelity, financial irresponsibility, disengagement from parenting, verbal, physical, and emotional abuse, among a host of other issues. That's not to say that men of other races don't do these things as well. But it is to say that these types of behaviors are far, far more prevalent in our community.
My words: How would you know such a thing? Obviously,you probably know more about the inner workings of black households than you do others. I just don't support the idea that bm are "worse" than other men.
I know the truth hurts, but rather than arguing with the reality of the women on this board,
My words: I am not arguing with any of these ladies. I have not once put any of them down nor have I put down bw in general. I am against some of the erroneous conclusions they have reached about bm and black people. I think some of those ideas are DAMAGING to the women expousing them. I don't see how any bw can feel good with the idea that bm as a group are AGAINST them. If bw in general acccepted that idea, we'd be in BIG trouble. That would literally depress, MILLIONS of bw. How can that be good?
why don't you engage your fellow black men in a dialog about what is going on within your community? In other words, clean up your own house first.
My words: I am not telling bw to clean up their own house. I see our interests as one and the same. To me bm and bw are in the SAME house. I am critical of other bm when they do or say things about bw that I don't agree with.
Personally I believe African American men are very wounded, afraid, and insecure which is why they behave in the way they do. Some of this is societal, some is familial, and some is just the individual choices a man has made in his life.
I have some compassion for bms pain. But I will not sacrifice my happiness to service their fragile sense of masculinity.
My words: Thank you and I agree, many bm are in great pain(not that I am trying to focus on that pain to the detriment of bw) and they DON'T realize it.
Black men need to stop blaming everybody under the sun, stop making excuses for their bad behavior and take steps to make the necessary changes in their lives.
I spent several years of my professional life working with young black men around these issues and you know what? Unless the desire to change and to embrace new values and behaviors comes from within, it is a big waste of time.
Again, you sound like a thoughtful brother. Your battle is not with the women on this board, it is within your own community of men.
My words: You make good points many that I agree with, but understand, I am not battling any woman on here.
Could there be another reason why you're still single ... such as obesity?
ReplyDeleteMost men (of any race) are not attracted to fat women. It's the sad truth just like women don't give short men the time of day."
And now you've shown your true colors. You really are a DBR bm. You had to insult me when you couldn't make your arguement. By the way, have seen the Latina women, they are big women and thier men still don't discriminate against them. Why is that?
My words: That was NOT me, that was a different poster. I understand howw it is easy to confuse, since both of us are anonymous, but this anonymous poster does NOT attack women online. Whoever wrote that was a big JERK.
By the way, I have proven my point in regards to comparing bm and Mexicans.
The comments left by the male anons reminds me of that joke: Who are you going to believe - me or your lying eyes?
ReplyDeleteWhen I was kid everyone was married, and getting married, even the black and white welfare families. Single black mothers were an anomaly.
However the dysfunctional black family came decades before today's group of men (regardless of race) who are reluctant to marry. Senator Moynihan wrote about single black mothers many years ago.
The marriage deficit is becoming mainstream but the problem within the "black community" is unique.
And Evia and Halima have eloquently expressed why many, many times on their blogs.
Dear "po black man", you missed the point. It was, that even doing just as poorly as bm, Mexican men still do one thing right, they MARRY their women. As for the negatives, they are real, and the research suggests that the divorse rates and out of wedlock births increase as they "assimilate" to the U.S. So, if the African man is still doing right and the Mexican man does too, then maybe the marriage problem is a byproduct of American culture which presents itself in DBR bm.
ReplyDeleteMy words: But you just admitted, what I was getting at, that once those men become Americanized, they start to behave like American men. So now cam you admit that the you CAN'T make these comparisions between bm and Mexicans, because of the EFFECT that American culture has on marriage.
As for the poster who gave you an "assist", an overall decline in marriage among 18% of all men (the stat seems to apply to all American men, not bm) does not explain the disparity of 70% of bw in America being single.
My words: Sure it does, you just don't want it to. The racial disparities between black and white people are TOOOOO numerous to list. Marriage is just another example of those disparities.
Could there be another reason why you're still single ... such as obesity?
ReplyDeleteMost men (of any race) are not attracted to fat women. It's the sad truth just like women don't give short men the time of day.
Hmmm. . . This sounds EXACTLY like yellamon again who writes me private messages talking about how obese and otherwise undesirable bw are and goes into detail re how ww are so much more desirable. You do try to get in a jab at every opportunity, don't you? You're such a hater of bw, masquerading as pro-bw and black male community activist on your blog.
BTW, you've inadvertently confirmed your identity. LOL!
anon said
ReplyDeleteThe bottomline is that bm as a group HAVE been collectively DENIED THe VERY things that MAKE marriage more likely.
Historically black men were denied. Today it is a very different story in many respects. I have seen within my professional work and in my own private life black men literally HANDED the tools and the means to improve their lives and they toss them aside behind some silly notions of what it means to be a "man" or other such nonsense. Over and over again.
I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist or that it doesn't still effect our lives. I am saying that racism or classism or whatever other ism is not the cause of the dysfunction we see among so many black men today.
I just don't support the idea that bm are "worse" than other men.
Well of course you wouldn't you don't live it or experience it as a woman, but that doesn't mean there's not some truth to it.
If bw in general acccepted that idea, we'd be in BIG trouble. That would literally depress, MILLIONS of bw. How can that be good?
If bw in general accepted this we would all be set free.
First off black women already have high rates of depression largely due to the fact that so many men have abandoned their communities and families and we have been left to hold it all together. I can't imagine it would be any worse than it is now.
You're assuming that a woman alone will be more depressed than a woman with any black man...I am here to assure you that this is not the case. We would be better off alone or with men of our choosing regardless of race than choosing partners based on some old 1960s black nationalist agenda of saving the race. For me that boat has sailed.
I truly believe that one of the reasons some black men don't clean up their acts is because so many women are there to house them, feed them, sleep with them, raise their children. Folks want to go on and on about welfare queens and welfare dependency but very few want to talk about the economic dependency of so many black men on black women (mothers, sisters, lovers, etc). The John Singleton movie only scratched the surface of this phenomenon.
And yes, even though I do think you're a thoughtful poster, I think you are on this board "arguing" with the women here. I believe the women here have already decided how they will be living their lives.
Even though many men who post, such as yourself, seem to have good intentions, at the end of the day we have voted with our feet and we are walking away from the ideas you and many others are promoting.
So again I say, if you are truly about "change" in the black community and and "doing it together" you are posting on the wrong board. You need to be bringing that message to your fellow black men.
"Historically black men were denied. Today it is a very different story in many respects. I have seen within my professional work and in my own private life black men literally HANDED the tools and the means to improve their lives and they toss them aside behind some silly notions of what it means to be a "man" or other such nonsense. Over and over again."
ReplyDeleteTotally agree. While I do think there are beautiful black men who are supportive and loving, I simply do not buy the arguements that things are so bad that black men can't marry if they want to.
Do you know that the highest rates of marriage between blacks was during Reconstruction? So am I to believe that black men of the past who were faced with lynchings, mutilation, torture, and other indignaties; who were unable to even look at white people the wrong way nevertheless ask for a job from them, are better off to marry than black men today? I'm not even comparing to other races here, I'm comparing to our own anscestors who married and had families under the most dire of circumstances. That honestly make no sense to me. It really doesn't.
I think some of those ideas are DAMAGING to the women expousing them. I don't see how any bw can feel good with the idea that bm as a group are AGAINST them. If bw in general acccepted that idea, we'd be in BIG trouble. That would literally depress, MILLIONS of bw. How can that be good?
ReplyDeleteLOL! I can't believe you asked this? Here's the answer.
As more and more bw realize the vast numbers of DBRbm that are out there, then more sistas will broaden their options and seek out men in the global village who are much better able to meet the challenges of being a high quality spouse and father. Bw's survival is at stake.
Yes, I'm selfish because before I can help anyone else, I must help myself. For ex. you, Anon, are still whining. Whining here with women is meaningless and unappealing in a very competitive world where you, as a man, are competing for resources to enable your children to not just survive, but thrive.
I began to see this profile of the DBRbm years ago, and I therefore dealt with them carefully and easily deflected their attempts to bring me low. It's CRITICALLY important for as many AA women as possible to grasp the fact that they are surrounded by many DBRbm. Sistas must spread this knowledge because it may very likely save them from a predator. This is why so many sistas are going under. They have no idea what's happening to them until it's too late.
So the first loving and loveable mate/husband I chose was an African man and my present husband is white. These men come from backgrounds that have better equipped them to be a wonderful mate to me and excellent father material for my children. I wasn't about to sacrifice myself or my children for the sake of the community or to be loyal to bm who I saw weren't even thinking about being loyal or protective towards me and other bw. As a result, I don't have ANY of the problems or concerns that ALL of my AA girlfriends have. I don't have man problems, children problems, money problems, stress, depression, weight related issues, etc. These men have demonstrated great love for me and our children. I have such a sense of safety and security--as much so as any woman anywhere and moreso than many.
Some AA men manage to do this for sistas, but there aren't nearly enough AA men like that. More of them that I've observed or heard or read and heard about about do just the opposite. Let's face it: many of them don't even try and increasingly they have a laundry list of whines, excuses, and hate towards bw. A huge number of them expect women to cater to them and their children are treated by them as afterthoughts. Most sistas can do a LOT better than this.
So this knowledge about the sea of DBRbm who are on the prowl out there is not depressing to sistas who want to survive and thrive. Quite the contrary. It's comforting because it will protect them and it's LIBERATING because it will free them--IF the knowledge is put to good use! Sistas--Forewarned is forearmed!!
anon said
ReplyDeleteI simply do not buy the argument that things are so bad that black men can't marry if they want to.
Or can stay out of prison, or can finish school, or can be employed, or...fill in the blank.
I completely agree with you anon there are many loving black men (my father is an angel...if I could find a man like him I'm snap him up in a heartbeat). And the array of isms are still a factor in our community. But the challenges we face today are NOTHING compared to the unsurmountable odds we all faced in the past. And yet more black men were ready, willing, and able to do what needed to be done to provide and protect their families and their communities.
For example, my grandfather was a mississippi sharecropper, he brought his whole family (wife and six kids) to California in the 40's. He worked full time as a laborer and cut grass on the weekends to provide for his family. In his fifties he went back to school to get his HS diploma because that was the only way he could get a promotion. He saved his money and bought a small storage and ice making business. When he died 15 years ago his net worth was well over $1 million dollars!
If he were born today I wonder if his story would be one of prison, drugs, abandonment, etc rather than courage, hope, and triumph.
"My words" Come on, the father not being in the household is NOT the same as abandonment. Why do you want to equate the 2 in this manner? The bottomline is that the stereotype that most black children are being raised by single never married women is JUST not the truth. There is ample proof that divorced/sepreated men are involved in their children's lives even though they are not with the mom."
ReplyDeleteYour premise that men who aren't present haven't abandoned their children is flawed. If the men who were non-custodial parents were involved in their kids' lives, then the kids would not be in poverty and the sistas would not to be on AFDC. If you look at the child support arrears of black men, you'll find that they aren't taking care of their kids. Bm abandon their children financially, and no matter how much you whine, kids eat every day.
anon said
ReplyDeleteCome on, the father not being in the household is NOT the same as abandonment...There is ample proof that divorced/sepreated men are involved in their children's lives even though they are not with the mom
Anon, this is a perfect example of how men and women see the role of being an "involved" parent differently.
As the other poster mentioned, most black women are lucky to see a dime of child support, even if the father pops in on occasion.
Secondly, what exactly does it mean to be an involved parent? A lot of men (regardless of race) think if they show up once every other weekend and take the kid to the amusement park and feed them a hot dog they've done their part in parenting. Or worse they show up even more sporadically, but just enough to confuse their child and cause some havoc in the household.
Parenting is much more then just "showing up" and "having fun with your kids", and I've seen way too many men of any race renege on their parenting responsibilities.
So I really question just how "involved" all of these "involved" men are.
Halima,
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately black women need to realize they cannot count on the "black community" to help them, especially if they date outside "the race." I've also realizied that as a white man who is attracted to black women that I can longer count on "the white community" to stick up for me. We have to go are own ways and find good people, regardless of color, that we can count on in our lives.
whitemenforblackwomen.blogspot.com
Anonymous @ I: 17
ReplyDeleteTake the issue of the 70% single bw/lack of marriage that is happeninng in America, that stat isn't just MERELY about the wishes of bm. You have to take into account the employment levels of bm, the earning power of bm. The fact is the GREATEST PREDICTOR of whether a man will marry isn't RACE, but income, the more money a bm earns the MORE likely he is to marry, and usually a bw. In many ways, the lower marriage rates of bw are caused by increasing numbers of bm being unable to financially support a family, and IS NOT some attack against bw, sprung up by the black community to keep bw single and unhappy.
On a level, i agree with your analysis of worklessness and its impact on marriage because i can see the sociologist angle, however the pure and simple solution is that it is unfair to mortgage bw's relationship ambitions to this fact. If bm cannot find work for whatever reason then bw should be freed to seek men who can fulfill their needs and it would be inconsiderate of us to 'block' bw psychologically or otherwise from her wider option because simply put, she isnt here on earth to 'serve' anyones agenda.
and i dont agree that bm unemployment levels are totally as a result of discrimination, that is making it all too easy and once again, allows the whole burden to fall on bw shoulders. also as has been mentioned on this and similar blogs, when bm do have means and are well employed they show a consistent trend of choosing AGAINST the average looking sister in fact some stats suggest that high earning bm are more likely to date out than in the race! To such a group of men bw owes nothing certainly not loyalty!
Nothing could be further from the truth, the reality is that because of racism and sexism, NONBM view bw in a bad light, this has NOTHING to do with bm/black people and everything to do with the racism and sexism that NONBM engage in.
Yes a negative ligh that bm are doing their best to encourage others to have of bw by saying the most vile things about them on and off line. You see bm are not your poor little put upon bm, even if they are in some ways, they sure know how to look after their ineterst when it comes down to it, and will sell bw down the river in a heart beat, indeed i am very sure that this theme of telling bw that no one wants them, has a lot ot do with creating a 'surplus' of bw, so they can devalue their rates (applying the social theory analogy now), therefore the 'class' ineterst of bw should definitely lie with resisting this sitation. unfortunately when bw are filled with romatic notions about their common inetersts with bm (false consciousness according to weber), they end up in dire straits.
And while there is some sense in th idea that the negativity attached to race might act against bw, i dont think bw have yet 'maxed' out the numbers of wm who are 'deviant' from general paradigms. Indeed bw have access to a standard deviation (bell curve analysis) of about 5% of wm, which would be too much for them to handle, so for now i dont think bw shuld be concerned about reaching the limit of their 'credit' of wm!
I just think that WHY do you have to mention BM so much in making your case that bw "expand their horizions".
Well isnt the reason obvious, many bw need to be disabused from the ideas handed them by the community about their rightful place by bm, in order to be freed up to access their wider option. Thats why bm get a good mention here.
Anonymous @ I: 17
ReplyDeleteTake the issue of the 70% single bw/lack of marriage that is happeninng in America, that stat isn't just MERELY about the wishes of bm. You have to take into account the employment levels of bm, the earning power of bm. The fact is the GREATEST PREDICTOR of whether a man will marry isn't RACE, but income, the more money a bm earns the MORE likely he is to marry, and usually a bw. In many ways, the lower marriage rates of bw are caused by increasing numbers of bm being unable to financially support a family, and IS NOT some attack against bw, sprung up by the black community to keep bw single and unhappy.
This statement is only partially true. The more money an African American male earns the LESS likely he will marry a black female. 60% of African American males earning 100,000 or more wil marry a non black female. Half of all African American doctors are married to a non black female. In the U.K. HALF of all black men marry a non black woman.
This is a very good blog, pointing out a lot of truthful facts, and enlightenning a lot of readers I am sure.
ReplyDeleteGood luck to you Halima, don't let yourself intimidated by angry, bitter posters.
Thank you for all your inspired, intelligent articles.
I wish you the best.
I truly believe that one of the reasons some black men don't clean up their acts is because so many women are there to house them, feed them, sleep with them, raise their children. Folks want to go on and on about welfare queens and welfare dependency but very few want to talk about the economic dependency of so many black men on black women (mothers, sisters, lovers, etc). The John Singleton movie only scratched the surface of this phenomenon.
ReplyDeleteYes Yes and Yes, great point this!
My words: Not fantasy, but reality. Not to say that WE don't have way too many children and women who are abandoeed, but it is NOT most. Why is that so hard to acknownledge?
ReplyDelete70% oow and 70% singlenss is not most? Do you actually want us to take you seriously here?
I think some of those ideas are DAMAGING to the women expousing them. I don't see how any bw can feel good with the idea that bm as a group are AGAINST them. If bw in general acccepted that idea, we'd be in BIG trouble. That would literally depress, MILLIONS of bw. How can that be good?
No these ideas will liberate bw and launch them into so much more, but i can understand how bm would be afraid of such liberating ideas, since it works against their monopoly on bw!
60% of African American males earning 100,000 or more wil marry a non black female.
ReplyDeletePlease state your source for this statement.
Indeed bw have access to a standard deviation (bell curve analysis) of about 5% of wm, which would be too much for them to handle, so for now i dont think bw shuld be concerned about reaching the limit of their 'credit' of wm!
ReplyDelete--------------------------
What is your source? If you can't provide a source for these statements then you are not credible.
What is your source? If you can't provide a source for these statements then you are not credible.
ReplyDeleteApparently the concept of statistical analysis eludes you. Never mind, i was engaging with someone who i think has a grasp of statistical theory, not you!
Apparently the concept of statistical analysis eludes you. Never mind, i was engaging with someone who i think has a grasp of statistical theory, not you!
ReplyDelete---------------------------
We're all educated here Halima ... you made a statement you want people to take as fact. How do you know what you know? Did you do a study and come to these conclusions.
You and Evia play a good game on these blogs. You make these sweeping statments and quote stats which you provide no sources for. I would buy your argument if you stated sources or posted links to back up what you say.
Let's see how you respond to this ... more of the same nonsense probaby.
http://www.diversityinc.com/public/1982.cfm
ReplyDeleteOf the interracial marriages, the census found that the largest amount, 23 percent, consist of a white husband and an Asian wife. Next most popular was a black husband and a white wife, 12.5 percent. Asian husbands and white wives were 7.6 percent, while white husbands and black wives were 5.1 percent. For more pairings, go to www.census.gov.
We're all educated here Halima ... you made a statement you want people to take as fact. How do you know what you know? Did you do a study and come to these conclusions.
ReplyDeleteYou and Evia play a good game on these blogs. You make these sweeping statments and quote stats which you provide no sources for. I would buy your argument if you stated sources or posted links to back up what you say.
Let's see how you respond to this ... more of the same nonsense probaby.
Lol! You are a trip! The mere fact that you are asking me to explain standard deviation for you is the clear sign that you havent got a clue, and my explanation wont help.
bell curve analysis or standard deviation is an etablished mathematical theory that doesnt require any further proof. Google if you must!
Lordy, next thing you will be asking me is to prove pythagora's theory lol!
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2000.00792.x
ReplyDeleteRecent declines in the rate of marriage among Black women have been accompanied by substantial increases in rates of interracial marriage, especially between Black men and non-Black women. Explanations for the retreat from marriage among Black women have focused on deficits in the quantity and quality of available partners, and the role of racial intermarriage largely has been ignored. This study examines the impact of interracial marriage by Black men on the marriage prospects of Black women. First, our analysis of data from the 1990 Integrated Public Use Microdata Series (IPUMS) reveals that intermarried Black men are selective of those with the highest levels of education, income, and occupational prestige. Second, multilevel analyses, using both the IPUMS and Panel Study of Income Dynamics, show that the level of intermarriage in metropolitan areas is significantly related to the marital behaviors of Black women. Local rates of intermarriage among Black men reduce the likelihood that Black women currently will be married and that they will make the transition to marriage. These effects are especially acute for highly educated Black women whose marriage markets are defined by those Black men who are most likely to intermarry. Finally, our analyses indicate that intermarriage affects the marital prospects of Black women by negatively affecting the pool of economically attractive marriage partners in the metropolitan area.
Lol! You are a trip! The mere fact that you are asking me to explain standard deviation for you is the clear sign that you havent got a clue, and my explanation wont help.
ReplyDeleteI'm not asking for you to explain SD ... again, what makes you think or where did you learn that black women specifically have access to 5% SD of white men? Why can't you answer that? lol
We're all educated here Halima ... you made a statement you want people to take as fact. How do you know what you know? Did you do a study and come to these conclusions.
ReplyDeleteYou and Evia play a good game on these blogs. You make these sweeping statments and quote stats which you provide no sources for. I would buy your argument if you stated sources or posted links to back up what you say.
LOL! Now why are you lying?!! You know you wouldn't buy our argument--no matter what.
I used to spend time keeping stats and posting them, but I don't waste my time posting the sources these days--even when I have the source at my fingertips because I learned that NO MATTER WHAT, folks like you will still try to wiggle and discount the stats and say the stats are lies and that all stats can be twisted or something like that. So since you apparently have so much at stake,(for whatever reason) you DISPROVE what we're saying.
Let's see how you respond to this ... more of the same nonsense probaby.
LOL! This is exactly what I mean. You've already started discounting the stats even before they're posted. So no matter what's posted, you've got to save face now by dismissing the stats. What I don't get about y'all is why are you here if you don't believe what we're saying. I'd really like to know why this is such a compelling topic to y'all.
I certainly hope that more and more sistas are absorbing the message here that many of y'all need to broaden your options to find the best mate possible. Don't settle because you don't have to do that. Please send other sistas to this blog and/or to mine. Tell other sistas to read the material and let them make up their own minds. They know their reality.
And Halima, you made a great point!! If all of these bm can't afford to get married, as is being argued here, then sistas definitely need to leave them alone. Don't date those men . and don't sex them. There's no future in that for you. Find men--of whatever background--who believe they can afford to get married. I just wish these bm who are claiming they can't afford to get married would just say this upfront to y'all, but they won't. Sistas, they'll be playing with your minds and your heart while they use your body. Forwarned is forearmed! !
First, our analysis of data from the 1990 Integrated Public Use Microdata Series (IPUMS) reveals that intermarried Black men are selective of those with the highest levels of education, income, and occupational prestige. Second, multilevel analyses, using both the IPUMS and Panel Study of Income Dynamics, show that the level of intermarriage in metropolitan areas is significantly related to the marital behaviors of Black women. Local rates of intermarriage among Black men reduce the likelihood that Black women currently will be married and that they will make the transition to marriage. These effects are especially acute for highly educated Black women whose marriage markets are defined by those Black men who are most likely to intermarry.
ReplyDeleteBAM! The TRUTH wrapped up in a nutshell.
Sistas - especially those of you who are highly educated and accomplished - you can wait (while your clock is ticking) and delude yourselves into believing a "black prince" (right LOL) is right around the corner waiting to sweep you off your feet if you want to, but chances are he's ALREADY found his princess.
And it's most likely NOT a sista.
This study speaks for itself. And even if it wasn't conducted, you've most likely come to the same conclusion based on your own two EYES.
It makes absolutely NO sense (and it's the height of stupidity) for black women to continue to be loyal to a population that has NO intention on reciprocating.
Halima, you don't honestly want us to take what you say on this blog on faith alone?
ReplyDeleteEither you are very opinionated or you're a scholar and if you’re a scholar then show us your research. Don't confuse people with misdirected statements.
That's the problem with blogs, no one is held accountable for what they say. However, I will hold you accountable and you look foolish when you can't produce adequate sources. If it's your opinion go ahead and state that.
However, don't think you can brain wash the women here with your unchecked statements.
"@Anon--who's trying to make the case for the po' underpaid bm and underemployed bm,"
ReplyDeleteIf people are going to make this case then I wonder how did previous generations of bm support their families when they had even less education than is available today? How did bm who didn't get to the 8th grade much less the 12th, who were probably functionally literate; go out and work doing whatever was necessary to build a home or family?
I think saying that bm are under/un employed is kind of an insult to the men who came before - who faced a heck of a lot more overt racial discrimination in prior generations.
"So the DBR-thug blends into the DBR non-thug."
ReplyDeleteI agree. I have met a lot of men who say they are good black men because like you said they have the degree, suit, and tie, but can be so nasty towards women. They are damaged as well.
"However, don't think you can brain wash the women here with your unchecked statements.?
ReplyDeleteDon't think YOU can brain wash the women here.
It's clear that you are a either a DBR BM or a DBR BM a** kissing troll.
You (and your ilk) have contributed NOTHING positive , educational, or of any substance what so ever to the conversation.
Your sole purpose being here is to attempt to derail the positive and important purpose of this blog.
SISTAS DO NOT LET YOUR INTERNAL COMPASS BE CONFUSED.
IF YOU DO IT'S TO YOUR DETRIMENT.
It's clear that these trolls are frightened that sistas are finally waking up out of the fog.
PLEASE continue to awake.
"Halima, you don't honestly want us to take what you say on this blog on faith alone?
ReplyDeleteEither you are very opinionated or you're a scholar and if you’re a scholar then show us your research. Don't confuse people with misdirected statements.
That's the problem with blogs, no one is held accountable for what they say. However, I will hold you accountable and you look foolish when you can't produce adequate sources. If it's your opinion go ahead and state that.
However, don't think you can brain wash the women here with your unchecked statements."
You fail to recall that most of the women reading this blog have self-selected to do so. Therefore, we already believe Halima and Evia, and most importantly, we believe what we are living with and seeing in our daily lives. We're not brainwashed, most of us have already turned the corner on waiting for a black man. We have decided to broaden our dating pool. I come here for encouragement which you are rudely interrupting. You're the one who isn't changing any ladies' minds on this blog.
I'll repeat the question of the day, "why are you here?". It would be more helpful if you'd speak to your purpose or let us engage with one another in a beneficial discussion since that's what I came here for. I'm receiving no benefit from your meddling. Right now, I deduce that your purpose is that black women with anything positive in our lives should keep on waiting for a "piece of man" to get his self together and maybe wanna shack up and have some kids since he can't afford to marry me.
Interestingly enough, I'm not that aquainted with black men who cannot afford the things they want, but what I do see each day is black men with similar education, and financial resources married to black women. Or better yet, I watch my bw friends who attract these bm who supposedly "have it going on" only to find out that they are "man sharing" because the odds are in his favor with bw. This sad situation led to a catfight between my friend and another bw that the other woman instigated because the shortage is so accute. Worse yet, he turned out to be a dope head and I can only scratch my head because my friend is a firm "only a bm will do". Good luck to her, but she's older than I am and still has no prospects for marriage.
Now can you give it a rest? There are women who want to dialogue with one another and be supportive of each other. Is this so hard for you to allow to happen?
I made an error in my frustration, I meant to say I see bm with similar education and resources married to nonbw or choosing to stay single for life in order to play the field. This wastes time for women.
ReplyDeleteYou fail to recall that most of the women reading this blog have self-selected to do so. Therefore, we already believe Halima and Evia, and most importantly, we believe what we are living with and seeing in our daily lives.
ReplyDeleteExactly. No one's pointing a gun at our heads making us come here and to Evia's blog. We've self-selected to do so.
And no one's pointing a gun at the head of trolls either.
The tone and subject matter will NOT change here - unless Halima the owner of this blog wishes it to - so trolls can deal or leave.
So, from what I am gathering from this is that black men who are incarated started to get married, while those black males that are employed stop, while those that are in interacial marriage take up the other part of the increase of black males getting married.
ReplyDeleteInteresting, isn't it? Clearly, BM are QUITE willing to marry: non-BW, and BW who can fill up their prison commissary accounts and support them through periods of chronic unemployment. Clear up that internal compass ladies with the TRUTH!
Now can you give it a rest? There are women who want to dialogue with one another and be supportive of each other. Is this so hard for you to allow to happen?
ReplyDeleteTruthfully, I can't do that ... you all are our women and I won't let you go that easy.
You can call me DBR and every other word, but I still believe in black family and black men. That is why I question every factoid posted on here.
You all will have to get an invisible blog or something to get me to stop.
"Do you know that the highest rates of marriage between blacks was during Reconstruction? So am I to believe that black men of the past who were faced with lynchings, mutilation, torture, and other indignaties; who were unable to even look at white people the wrong way nevertheless ask for a job from them, are better off to marry than black men today? I'm not even comparing to other races here, I'm comparing to our own anscestors who married and had families under the most dire of circumstances. That honestly make no sense to me. It really doesn't."
ReplyDeleteOn point Anon!
evia said
ReplyDeleteI used to spend time keeping stats and posting them, but I don't waste my time posting the sources these days--even when I have the source at my fingertips because I learned that NO MATTER WHAT, folks like you will still try to wiggle and discount the stats and say the stats are lies and that all stats can be twisted or something like that.
Preach girl! Somebody must have posted this blog on some college board cuz the wanna be statisticians are coming out of the woodwork! LOL
Evia I'm with you. Personally I don't think a stat has ever changed someone's opinion. Folks typically find some way to refute it or discount it or just ignore it.
I also can't help but wonder whether demanding statistical
"evidence" isn't part and parcel of the strategy to put us in the defensive position of having to rationalize or explain our position, fully knowing that NOTHING we say will alter what they think anyway.
Regardless of the statistical evidence of the outmarriage rates of black men, the women here are interested in interracial marriage and dating. I don't care if there are thousands upon thousands of great black men. I will still choose to date whomever I want regardless of race. If my partner ends up being black, great...if not, great.
What I find so amusing is that I can guarantee you that all of these men questioning the stats, throwing up one sorry argument after another would date a non-black woman at the drop of a hat. What I don't understand is why they find this blog so threatening?
Clearly we are staring the scared little black boy in the face. What exactly are you all afraid of? If you're a fabulous, educated, tight, handsome, brother you will find a woman...so why are you so interested in stalking and harassing a small group of black women conversing about our own experiences, opinions, and interest in interracial relationships?
Yet another example of black men trying to deny black women the same freedoms that they enjoy.
anon said
ReplyDeleteTruthfully, I can't do that ... you all are our women and I won't let you go that easy.
And we have a winner for the most deluded statement of the day!
Brother, we are not YOUR women. That attitude is a big reason why we have the problems we have today. The women on this Board are escaping from the tyranny of race based mating...sisters like Halima and Evia are running this little underground railroad to freedom and there's nothing you all can do to stop it.
Ladies,
Maybe we can brainstorm and come up with a strategy for dealing with those who try to hijack our board.
"Truthfully, I can't do that ... you all are our women and I won't let you go that easy."
ReplyDeleteI must admit I have a problem with you using our as it denotes an ownership I am not comfortable with nor do I really like the implication that it is up to black men to decide when to let me go as if I have no choice in the matter. I am my own woman and I belong to no one. Nor does any person on the planet belong to another when the reach the age of adulthood, especially in the United States. Ethnicity doesn't give anyone the right to ownership for anyone. Just the same way I don't trip if a black man falls in love with a white woman, I don't own him so I really don't care if he is pursuing a life he wants to live. That's his choice and up to him.
If a sista wants to maintain and have a black family, I have no issue with that. In fact I think it's great. But I'm not going to demand that she marriage only a black brother if that's not what she wants. Nor do I want her to wait indefinately for something that may never come when there are wonderful men of all hues out there for her to love and care for. If that person happens to be a brother, great. If not, great too.
"What I find so amusing is that I can guarantee you that all of these men questioning the stats, throwing up one sorry argument after another would date a non-black woman at the drop of a hat. What I don't understand is why they find this blog so threatening?"
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting because I was having a discussion with my brother and he said something that clarified this matter rather nicely. He said point blank:
"Black men date whoever they want, it really doesn't matter the color. Why do you think you can see a black man at a white club or a spanish club with no problem more often than black women?"
Why is it so wrong if a sista wants to do the same and have the same freedom as a black man in dating other races? Is it really that big of a deal?
I'm not hatin' on black men. My father is a black man. My brother is a black man. But this double standard kills me. It honestly does.
Great post! *Sigh* Ladies, I am soo over this conversation with these men. I am tired of the back and forth. I agree that we need to stop engaging them, and focus the conversation on our own needs and strategies. Everytime we engage them and repeat what has already been said here, we give them a chance to spew their venom and confuse the internal compass of yet another bw. There is more than enough evidence here, of the lack of care in their hearts. I think women who don't believe can be directed to threads like these and almost any other blog, forum, chat room, newspaper, media source, daily event, street corner, etc. where bm can be found, to highlight their behavior. Afterall no one forced them to come here and make negative comments about our physical features, they did that of their own accord. Similar to how racists will come out of the woodworks to post inflammatory comments on blogs discussing high profile incidents of racism. They have in essence proven the validity of Halima's new term, racio-misogyny. I realize all the women here are at different stages in their development, but I am ready to dialgoue about things that we do and can do better, and I think other single black women here could benefit a lot from that as well, regardless of what stage they are at. I have to say, I thought I had a handle on dating IR, but since reading these blogs I have become more aware of more subtle things that I do, to put bm before other men (and hang onto them a little to long after I have identified inexcusable traits), and hinder growth in my relationships with non-black men. As a result, my current relationship with a Latino guy, has been progressing in a way that I am really enjoying right now. In the end, isn't that what we want to accomplish? So, let's stop focusing on responding to them and focus on the strategies we can employ to be more selective of caring and compatible mates. If women come here and need convincing, I would suggest sending them over to any one of the previous articles by Halima, Evia, and others like them to view the comments thread.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you emerging phoenix,
ReplyDeleteOf course this is Halima's blog (although folks like me act like it's there's LOL). Halima you are so generous with your time and so patient with some of the nonsense going on on your blog. But maybe we can come to some agreement about how to deal with the persistent trolls. Maybe just agreeing to ignore them. Hard to do (I'm one of the worst offenders) but I'm willing to try.
Also, I have to say I'm uncomfortable with the term DBR black men. I truly believe everyone has the capacity to be healed, not that we have that responsibility. I also think it's one of those terms that triggers a negative reaction and multiple troll posts. Although maybe we won't be talking about them much in the future, I'm up for brainstorming other possible terms. Just a thought.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteNow can you give it a rest? There are women who want to dialogue with one another and be supportive of each other. Is this so hard for you to allow to happen?
Truthfully, I can't do that ... you all are our women and I won't let you go that easy.
You can call me DBR and every other word, but I still believe in black family and black men. That is why I question every factoid posted on here.
You all will have to get an invisible blog or something to get me to stop.
Men DO NOT OWN WOMEN, just becuase you are the same color skin as a female, they are your women? Hah! That has no basic in logic or reality considering all "races" are mixed to begin with. This the 21st Century, not the stone ages, any white woman can marry whomever she likes and it's NONE OF MY BUSINESS and the same is true of you buddy. The more you keep up with that attitude and the more of "your women" you will lose.
http://whitemenforblackwomen.blogspot.com/
Man, Anon 1:17 is dropping some wisdom on this board.
ReplyDeleteOf course my comment is made respectful of Halima's blog and whatever course you want it to take. I am also grateful for this blog (and others like it), and considerate of the time and energy you all put into them to keep them going. =)
ReplyDeleteFor those of you show know of the radio talk host, Tom Lyekis, although he's not black - would you consider him to have similar dysfunctional qualities as the DBR BM?
ReplyDeleteDespite classical one's blog, he will, in all likelihood, marry a white woman. This is simply a case of him eating up all this attention from an extremely small group of women who put him on some white supremacy pedestal.
ReplyDelete^^^^If that is classicalone's destiny, then that is his destiny. But it wasn't beyond him to celebrate us. Unlike the bm who come here to spread their virus, make their excuses, and then do absolutely nothing to uplift the bw they claim to love so much.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, he puts you all to shame. To think, a white man, yet again, had to show you how it's done.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that if this was a blog dedicated to trashing white men (as it does black men), he either wouldn't post or would be antagonistic toward you ladies.
ReplyDeleteFrom Tim Wise:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-02/12wise.cfm
“The reason for the increase in the share of black children born out-of-wedlock in recent decades is that two-parent black couples are having fewer children than ever, meaning that a growing share of the children who are born in the black community will be out-of-wedlock, even though sexual behavior hasn’t changed, and fertility rates among single black women have been falling.”
“Indeed, eighty percent of the increase in out-of-wedlock childbirths in the black community is because of the falloff in children born to intact black families: a falloff that has been even steeper than the decline among single moms.”
I've been posting today as a female anon, but I'm tired of that since this interloping male also uses it.
ReplyDeleteI plan to keep visiting and engaging in positive dialogue with other ladies who either have something to share that uplifts me or can advise me in my search for a fuller, married life with a man of any race who is a good match and appreciates me.
Halima, I like this blog and today's exchange has shown me a lot about the motives of others.
While my compass is not confused, I have to admit that my esteem is bruised and has been by the "white men don't want you when they can get a white woman" mantra. I won't voice negativity to myself anymore and see how that works.
Switching to positive topics, does anybody have any suggestions for IR with European men? Any dating sites or social organizations? I've lived in France and would LOVE to return there if I found the right guy? I don't think I learned I was beautiful until my study abroad at 24 years old.
I'm sure that if this was a blog dedicated to trashing white men (as it does black men),
ReplyDeleteThe black men being "trashed" (that is spoken honestly about) on this blog earn it.
he either wouldn't post or would be antagonistic toward you ladies.
Classical One can speak for himself.
Shameless plug coming...I just wanted to let Halima and others know, I updated my blog to include your links on my sidebar. I can't say I will blog much or even at all, but at least the trickle of traffic I still get, may find themselves over here.
ReplyDeleteImmigrant BLACK MEN risk their lives to come here to GO TO SCHOOL and many of them get high paying employment, marry (sometimes AA women like my Nigerian husband married me)and support their families very well.
ReplyDeleteOh, please. Unlike Hispanic immigrants, African immigrants are overwhelmingly the cream of the crop. They are the ones financially secure enough to make the flight here and have the pull to gain legal residency. Many, or most, come as foreign exchange students.
Blacks who do risk their lives to come here are mostly Hatians and they are among the poorest Americans are very involved in crime.
Also, this is a Haitian rapper named Won-G. Tell me what stands out about his music video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS-CcyW4-UI
And regarding Nigerian men, please read this article.
http://www.nigeriansinamerica.com/articles/717/1/Why-Do-African-Men-Go-Home-to-Marry/Page1.html
And this article, which you may be familiar with, about brutality against women in Nigeria:
http://web.amnesty.org/actforwomen/nga-180705-action-eng
Including Female Genital Mutilation:
http://www.rufarm.kabissa.org/articles/fgm.htm
Here is someone's very emotional personal account of an experience with someone damaged beyond repair. It almost brought me to tears.
ReplyDeletehttp://207.36.215.233/letter.html
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI've decided it's time to start ignoring any post by anonymous, so that I can focus on the real topics that matter to my life. I'm sick of the drama that this troll brings, so I won't read his posts or any replies to him.
ReplyDeleteThis is a wonderful blog with lots to share with bw that can help us open up our availability. My pledge to myself going forward is to ignore the troll who (unhealthily) feeds on attention and sucks the life out of bw who just want to do better for ourselves.
@caligirl94117 - Here Here to that! I have made it a point to skim right past the anon bm posts, although I inadvertently read the last few. =)
ReplyDeleteAre you still in that zip code? I am in the bay area. If you ever wanted to chat shoot me an e-mail. Just click on my profile to find it.
As I have said before this is about what is best For Black Women. Not focusing on Black men's problems. Black women know what they are dealing with when it comes to Black men. What they do not know is what it is like to be involved with a White one. Concentrate on posting about that and ignore the knuckleheads who do not like Black Women Crossing the color line. Who care what they think, we don't want then in any case.
ReplyDeleteWhen I met my husband his race was not a good enough reason to discount him as a potential partner. We approach each other from the point of giving each other the benefit of a doubt when it comes to race matters. We are of different cultures and see the world differently and use language differently.
When we speak and are not clear about what really is meant we do not jump to conclusions but will stop the conversation to get an explanation. Nine times out of then there has been misinformation or stereotypes that have to be worked through but we do the work and it does get easier the longer you are in the relationship.
You go through an adjustment period at least we did early in our marriage. After ten years together we are old hands at it. People who date and marry across religious and culture lines have to go through the same thing. If you are open to dating and marrying across the race lines you have to be open to listen, to educate and to be educated. It takes both of you wanting to make it work and putting in the effort. That is why Black Women are increasingly are looking elsewhere for partners. They want some one to work with them and meet them half way. We deserve men who are bring as much to the table as we bring. We should not be expected to marry down. I never did. I have a BA degree. My husband is a PhD. Financially we are on par and have the same goals. We want the same things in life and have built a secure life with each other.
Black women want the same things every other race of woman wants. We are the only ones expected to accept less and that is nonsense. That way of thinking was not anything that I wanted a part of and I an glad I thought for myself and went after the life I wanted. There in not a human being walking the face of the earth that can convince me I made the wrong choice. The proof is in my life I would not five back one second of the life I have with My husband. Not for anything.
^^^ All you BW make me so proud to be one. The creator created a special breed in bw i swear.
ReplyDeleteEmerging and others i totally agree with everything you have said about progressing from this point. The truth is that this blog is but STEP1 on the journey to relationship success for bw. this is were they come to be clued up about the basics regarding the reality surrounding bm and the wider choice. therefore many of you who have been here for a while have grasped hold of the basics and are ready for another stage, while other women who are still having problems around the basics will continue to come here to work it out and become enlightened.
we need to look at a plan for stage 2 which i have some intitial thoughts, needs to be about
BW mentoring other BW into Relationships
Do any of you think that this is a good idea. i know this is a thankless job but i think some of you have the knowlege and skills to assist other women at least begin dating again (you would be suprised how many bw havent dated in excess of 5 years and are in 'non-dating mode' (another blog entry coming).
So would any of you be willing to provide support to sisters out there who are seeking to get into relationships. While we here on evia and my blog deal with the theoriticals and lay the foundations. it might involve some hand holding i must warn!
Hey Caligirl!
ReplyDeleteI have never been to France, but I can agree with the European appeal. I guess I could say I now have recently developed a crush on a certain English actor whom I now have as a screensaver. =)
Hello Halima,
ReplyDelete" BW mentoring other BW into Relationships
Do any of you think that this is a good idea. i know this is a thankless job but i think some of you have the knowlege and skills to assist other women at least begin dating again (you would be suprised how many bw havent dated in excess of 5 years and are in 'non-dating mode' (another blog entry coming)."
I think this could be a good thing. I don't know about the logistics, but I would appreciate whatever is shared even via blog articles.
I must confess I have no clue how to date. I haven't dated in like 5 years or had sex in 7 or it may be more because I wasn't allowed to date as a teen.
I surely didn't get much from my mom on how to date.
Honestly the thought of dating strikes terror and fear in my heart! LOL
I have had so many negative experiences in just flirting (I now realize they were probably DBR BM) that my confidence is just gone.
Why Our Black Families Are Failing
ReplyDeleteBy William Raspberry
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article
/2005/07/24/AR2005072401115.html
Monday, July 25, 2005; Page A19
"There is a crisis of unprecedented magnitude in the black community, one that goes to the very heart of its survival. The black family is failing."
Quibble if you will about the "unprecedented magnitude" -- slavery wasn't exactly a high point of African American well-being. But there's no quarreling with the essence of the alarm sounded here last week by a gathering of Pentecostal clergy and the Seymour Institute for Advanced Christian Studies. What is happening to the black family in America is the sociological equivalent of global warming: easier to document than to reverse, inconsistent in its near-term effect -- and disastrous in the long run.
Father absence is the bane of the black community, predisposing its children (boys especially, but increasingly girls as well) to school failure, criminal behavior and economic hardship, and to an intergenerational repetition of the grim cycle. The culprit, the ministers (led by the Rev. Eugene Rivers III of Boston, president of the Seymour Institute) agreed, is the decline of marriage.
Kenneth B. Johnson, a Seymour senior fellow who has worked in youth programs, says he often sees teenagers "who've never seen a wedding."
The concern is not new. As Rivers noted at last week's National Press Club news conference, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan sounded the alarm 40 years ago, only to be "condemned and pilloried as misinformed, malevolent and even racist."
What is new is the understanding of how deep and wide is the reach of declining marriage -- and the still-forming determination to do something about it.
When Moynihan issued his controversial study, roughly a quarter of black babies were born out of wedlock; moreover, it was largely a low-income phenomenon. The proportion now tops two-thirds, with little prospect of significant decline, and has moved up the socioeconomic scale.
There have been two main explanations. At the low-income end, the disproportionate incarceration, unemployment and early death of black men make them unavailable for marriage. At the upper-income level, it is the fact that black women are far likelier than black men to complete high school, attend college and earn the professional credentials that would render them "eligible" for marriage.
Both explanations are true. But black men aren't born incarcerated, crime-prone dropouts. What principally renders them vulnerable to such a plight is the absence of fathers and their stabilizing influence.
Fatherless boys (as a general rule) become ineligible to be husbands -- though no less likely to become fathers -- and their children fall into the patterns that render them ineligible to be husbands.
The absence of fathers means, as well, that girls lack both a pattern against which to measure the boys who pursue them and an example of sacrificial love between a man and a woman. As the ministers were at pains to say last week, it isn't the incompetence of mothers that is at issue but the absence of half of the adult support needed for families to be most effective.
Interestingly, they blamed the black church for abetting the decline of the black family -- by moderating virtually out of existence its once stern sanctions against extramarital sex and childbirth and by accepting the present trends as more or less inevitable.
They didn't say -- but might have -- that black America's almost reflexive search for outside explanations for our internal problems delayed the introspective examination that might have slowed the trend. What we have now is a changed culture -- a culture whose worst aspects are reinforced by oversexualized popular entertainment and that places a reduced value on the things that produced nearly a century of socioeconomic improvement. For the first time since slavery, it is no longer possible to say with assurance that things are getting better.
As the Rev. Jesse Jackson said in a slightly different context, "What began as a problem has deteriorated into a condition. Problems require solving; conditions require healing."
How to start the healing? Rivers and his colleagues hope to use their personal influence, a series of marriage forums and their well-produced booklet, "God's Gift: A Christian Vision of Marriage and the Black Family," to launch a serious, national discussion and action program.
In truth, though, the situation is so critical -- and its elements so interconnected and self-perpetuating -- that there is no wrong place to begin. When you find yourself in this sort of a hole, someone once said, the first thing to do is stop digging.
BLACK WOMEN CAN STOP DIGGING TODAY - CLIMB OUT OF THE HOLE - AND START FISHING IN THE GLOBAL SEA.
As I have said before this is about what is best For Black Women. Not focusing on Black men's problems. Black women know what they are dealing with when it comes to Black men.
ReplyDeleteBrenda, I agree with you, except that I really don't think that the younger sistas and non-thinking older sistas do know what they're dealing with. Maybe we should just let them find out the hard way about the DBRs??? Even my male cousins (one is 30 and the other is 23)wonder why these young black women don't know better by now. It bothers them because they say so many young sistas with lots going for them are so distrustful of any bm, and even become embittered by the time they're in their late twenties because a DBR man has already abused them--emotionally and/or physically/financially, and many of them already have a child.
My male cousins wonder why it is that this STILL happens to so many young sistas. They ask me because they figure I'll know because I'm a black woman too. The only thing I can tell them is that apparently these young sistas DON'T KNOW--that no one is warning them of the danger around them. This is why I decided to start talking about the DBRbm issue, warning sista about them and simultaneously letting them know that they have other options, that there are plenty of loving and loveable men of other races and nationalities who are interested. I also tell my cousins that they must talk to their male peers about this, but they always say that the women should get smarter and just shouldn't let these DBR men use them.
Naturally, DBRbm like the trolls here and their mammy-supporters are going to try to plant suspicion in sistas' minds about white men, Nigerian men and any other men that AA women say anything positive about. We should EXPECT this. Sistas, that should be a very good sign. This tells you that they KNOW how desirable typical bw are to other men. If bw weren't desirable, they wouldn't need to follow us around on these blogs trying to wreak your compass. They would need to keep reminding sistas of how undesirable we are. LOL!! So, the motives behing their madness are crystal clear to me because I don't pay much attention to what people say; I watch what they DO. They just don't want us to know our beauty and desirability. They're just trying to keep plenty of AA women available in the box for cheap. We should thank them for their unintended vote of confidence.LOL!!
Sistas, we've got to get really sophisticated about this. This is just the beginning. These are just the retarded, lightweight trolls here. The heavyweight, intelligent trolls--both males and females--are yet to come. As a matter of fact, I suspect that the worst trolls are going to be other sistas who are miserable themselves and are not going to take it lightly that you're likely to escape the coffin that they're in.
What they do not know is what it is like to be involved with a White one. Concentrate on posting about that and ignore the knuckleheads who do not like Black Women Crossing the color line. Who care what they think, we don't want then in any case.
Brenda--okay, but honestly, I guess I don't exactly know what other sistas want to know about being involved with a white man. Since I've been in 2 loving relationships (one with a Nigerian and now with a white man), I can't say they're really so different. I guess, to me, a loving man is a loving man. I can say that after a short while, you don't really look at his complexion as being "white" or if you do notice it, it's not anything significant because of the loving way he treats you, the way he makes you feel--special, protected, secure, excited, happy, content, etc. You know that he wants you to be happy; he wants to keep you satisfied and is willing to do whatever to keep you in a satisfied state of mind. A loving man makes you feel good almost all of the time. This is to be expected because love is supposed to make you feel good. He's attentive, considerate, always sensitive to your feelings, etc.
Sistas, a loving man is a joy because you have another adult in your life who's looking out for your interests and your children's interests 24-7-365. He's always got your back. You can always depend on him and you KNOW it. He's ALWAYS there for his children--guiding, planning, protecting, etc. them. He goes out of his way to accommodate your wishes. Even when he wins the argument, he's sad if you're unhappy or annoyed with him. LOL!! At times like that, he'll do something to make you laugh or feel better. LOL! Just being near you makes him glow. You know this because he might start acting like an excited 5th grade boy. LOL! He loves touching you. He loves looking at you. He loves those quiet times with you. He works overtime to relieve any stress you might feel for any reason. This is critical because a stressed out woman is not going to be able to provide the quality or amount of nurturing to children or her man as a woman who is not stressed or only momentarily stressed. A loving man makes you feel beautiful by what he says to you and the way he treats you.
I may be as ugly as sin, but I feel beautiful because I've had 2 loving men in my life who've made/make me feel beautiful and highly desirable.
Darren makes me feel beautiful. Regardless of how I really look, he tells me often that I'm beautiful or that I look "cute" in a particular outfit. LOL! He is very romantic. He LOVES to surprise me. He plans these long-term surprises that blow me away. I'm going to post a picture of one of his surprises in a few days on my blog. He makes me coffee every morning and brings it up to me on a tray. He keeps my toenails polished LOL! in the summertime. He loves to massage my shoulders. He loves for me to sit on his lap.
He just loves being near me. He always carries the bags when we go shopping. He always wants to hold my hand when we're walking somewhere--sometimes even when I don't want to hold hands like when it's too hot. LOL!
He's witty, very bright--with tons of common sense and book sense. He writes poetry; he cooks better than me; can fix and operate just about any machine, can fix anything in a house, can do any home renovation, is extremely articulate, reads voraciously, loves the arts, etc.
I could go on and on and on.
The main thing is that when a man loves you, he SHOWS it and you feel it. A man who loves you will make sure that you KNOW that he loves you. I've drawn this from some of my experiences. Likewise, I've dated men who obviously didn't appreciate me and they tried to mistreat me. I quickly walked away.
"I guess, to me, a loving man is a loving man. I can say that after a short while, you don't really look at his complexion as being "white" or if you do notice it, it's not anything significant because of the loving way he treats you, the way he makes you feel--special, protected, secure, excited, happy, content, etc. You know that he wants you to be happy; he wants to keep you satisfied and is willing to do whatever to keep you in a satisfied state of mind. A loving man makes you feel good almost all of the time. This is to be expected because love is supposed to make you feel good. He's attentive, considerate, always sensitive to your feelings, etc.
ReplyDeleteSistas, a loving man is a joy because you have another adult in your life who's looking out for your interests and your children's interests 24-7-365. He's always got your back. You can always depend on him and you KNOW it. He's ALWAYS there for his children--guiding, planning, protecting, etc. them. He goes out of his way to accommodate your wishes. Even when he wins the argument, he's sad if you're unhappy or annoyed with him. LOL!! At times like that, he'll do something to make you laugh or feel better. LOL! Just being near you makes him glow. You know this because he might start acting like an excited 5th grade boy. LOL! He loves touching you. He loves looking at you. He loves those quiet times with you. He works overtime to relieve any stress you might feel for any reason. This is critical because a stressed out woman is not going to be able to provide the quality or amount of nurturing to children or her man as a woman who is not stressed or only momentarily stressed. A loving man makes you feel beautiful by what he says to you and the way he treats you."
I couldn't have said it better myself. We are truly blessed Evia. As are ALL women (regardless of "race") who have married well.
It truly adds years to ones life to be in a happy, healthy, and satisfying marriage.
And there's nothing mysterious or different about an "IR" relationship vs. a "same race" one.
A loving good man is a loving good man PERIOD. Regardless of "race"/nationality.
It's just that beautifuly simple ladies.
I am the anon male poster from yesterday, who would put "MY words" before my comments. The last time I posted there were about 30 comments. I have not posted since then. There was MORE than one anon poster.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I was not trying to derail anyone's discussion, or put "doubt in anyone's minds", or control bw who want to date IR, or put down bw who want to date IR.
I came to this blog because its address was posted on a popular black website. I was interested in what the dating experiences, or whatever of bw who "exclusively" date nonbm would be. Instead the first 2 blog entries I read from the originator of this blog were ABOUT bm and the black community. I know about bm and the black community. Now if I would have posted a comment to a blog entry about dating Russian immigrant men and brought UP bm or the black community, I could understand the response I received as that of me trying to get the discussion of track, but the BLOG entry that I commented on WAS ABOUT bm.
I didn't putdown bw, or any of the black female bloggers in my response. I merely spoke from MY perspetive as to what I saw as a potential danger of this blog to become anti-bm(which it already is) and ultimately anti-black period. I raised points about some of what I feel are erroneous conclusions reached about bm and the black community.
This will be my last contribution to this blog because obviously BM just are not wanted around here, because were are BM. How can it be that bm are the ONLY group of men called out for their treatment of bw, the ONLY men collectively criticized, the ONLY men portrayed as being against bw, the ONLY men portrayed as hurting bw? I presume that bw who date IR have had experiences with non bm that weren't good that weren't positive, that HURT. Surely as a bw that dates non bm you have had to had experiences of being "putdown, not being accepted taken for granted" by some of these individual non black men. Where are those experiences, where are non bm taken to task for THEIR sexism, and general hatred of bw? Yet, the ONLY negative comments concerning MALE behavior FOCUS LIKE A LASER BEAM ON BM.
In my opinion, many of you all really do see individual bm or bm as a group as YOUR personal enemy. Every comment I made I feel was viewed in that light, That uh oh, he is a bm so whatever he says is automatically going to be against the best interests of bw.
I see there are calls to ignore this or ignore that. Again, I can understand ignoring bloggers who are disrespectful, or who are just mean and condescending, but there is a DANGER in anyone being unwilling and unable to hear from people with different perspectives then themselves, with different ideas from themselves, that is called a cult. Now you all won't form a cult in the traditional sense, but you all could form a cult around these ideas that you have about black people and specifically bm.
I saw several references to the dbr bm, their mammy supporters, and apologists, ARE scared of the ideas presented in this blog, and about bw waking up. It is quite the opposite, no idea I read SCARED me, but CLEARLY some of the things that I wrote so shook some of YOU ALL's thought processes so much that you can't BARE to read them. So you decide you will ignore any opinion or idea that isn't in LOCK STEP with your own.
Ask yourself if you are so confident, of the rightness of your ideas, why should anyone questioning them(in a respectful manner) bring out all of these ridiculous feelings of he is trying to control us, or derail us, or trick us etc?
To all of the ladies who read this and who are single good luck in your search for love, but understand BM are not your enemy, and hating us won't make your life any better, no matter what this blog tells you.
The last two post are very positive ones and are the kind that BWs contemplating being with a WM need to see. If you have never dated across the race line how else do you find out what it is like except from women who live it. I think that is part of the mentoring that Halima is talking about.
ReplyDeleteThe best thin I can do for any young BW is to let them see what a healthy and loving relationship is and to talk them down from making excuses for the bad behavior of DBR-BM. Young BWs are surrounded by examples of this bad behavior. It on the streets, in our homes and in the media. These young Women believe this is normal or that the DBR-BM cannot help it so they give them a pass. Young BW do watch how you are treated by your man. I know that my nieces do. This and singing the praises of the men in our lives is, in my opinion, one of the most effective ways to counter the propaganda that is spread about WM/BW relationships in general and the lie that BW can not have loving relationships.
The previous two post prior to Mr Anon. are very positive ones and are the kind that BWs contemplating being with a WM need to see. If you have never dated across the race line how else do you find out what it is like except from women who live it. I think that is part of the mentoring that Halima is talking about.
ReplyDeleteThe best thin I can do for any young BW is to let them see what a healthy and loving relationship is and to talk them down from making excuses for the bad behavior of DBR-BM. Young BWs are surrounded by examples of this bad behavior. It on the streets, in our homes and in the media. These young Women believe this is normal or that the DBR-BM cannot help it so they give them a pass. Young BW do watch how you are treated by your man. I know that my nieces do. This and singing the praises of the men in our lives is, in my opinion, one of the most effective ways to counter the propaganda that is spread about WM/BW relationships in general and the lie that BW can not have loving relationships.
Anon wrote:To all of the ladies who read this and who are single good luck in your search for love, but understand BM are not your enemy, and hating us won't make your life any better, no matter what this blog tells you.
ReplyDeleteBrenda's response.
WE do not hate Black men in general. We want nothing to do with the DBR-BM and their apologists. We want to expand our options beyond BM as far as mates are concerned.
Black Women exist in the same racist world that Black Men do and yet we get educated and are employable. DBR-BM do not do this and yet BW are expected to accept them as viable marriage candidates which they are not. You have the most marriageable of Black Men marrying out. That leaves fewer for Black Women. What this blog is advocating is not accepting the dregs of the Black Race but to move beyond them to get the type of man you deserve.
A blog like this is only a threat of the trifling Black men out there who have no education or marketable skills and because they cannot compete in today's world become abusive to Black women.
You brothers in arms need the clean up your own mess and not expect Black women who have something going for them to do it for you.
they always say that the women should get smarter and just shouldn't let these DBR men use them.
ReplyDelete___________________________________
This always sets my teeth on edge--the "they just need to choose better" argument. As if BW have available to them this huge pool of quality, stable, FUNCTIONAL BM ready and willing to commit to BW and form black families, but for some reason, we just perversely choose the tiny percentage of DBRBM because of our addiction to thug love.
All these stats-loving "brothas" suddenly forget all about the stats showing the number of BM in prison, the number of un- and under-employed BM, the number of BM who are simply DEAD by age 50, and yes, the number of BM who are simply uninterested in BW.
No, when it comes to BW fighting over scraps of a man, suddenly the stats are irrelevant, and the only explanation is these women's own poor "choices."
Halima, I think relationship mentoring is a wonderful idea. I'll never forget a story that Alice Walker told of visiting her alma mater Sarah Lawrence, and learning that a black female student there had just committed suicide after being mocked and attacked by her fellow black students for dating a white man--including some of her "brothas" who only dated white girls, white boys, or each other.
Too many of our best and brighest--the women that other races recognize as the jewels in their crown--spend their youths withering into lonliness and bitterness, when they should be enjoying life to the fullest, taking full advantage of the opportunities that their talent and beauty have earned them.
Any other community would consider it absurd to tell their female doctors and engineers to "man-share" or date the garbageman so that the their male doctors and engineers are free to pursue non-BW or juggle multiple women guilt-free.
Clearly, we have to step up. I can't claim to be an expert, but I have been in a happy, nurturing relationship with a wonderful man for 5 years, and we will be married next month. There's no reason why other bright, attractive, accomplished sisters can't have the same thing. And if any of you young sisters just need someone to talk to or some support when others want you to settle, feel free to email me at EspritAimee@gmail.com. We've always survived by standing by each other, and we always will!
Hey Emerging_Phoenix, I'll be in touch off-line.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that I woke up this morning to find us all resolved to go in the positive direction. As for the mentoring, I may be interested in that. I could use some dating help, but more importantly, I think I need to work on "the rules of attraction" first. How do I meet the potentially open nonbm date? I'm a slightly nerdy kinda gal and I'm pretty conservative. Living in California (especially S.F.) many of the wm I meet are so liberal that they are either athiests or think marriage is "a piece of paper", so I never date them. I need a social plan to get me out meeting people I might have something in common with. This would help me more than a "how to date" at this moment.
Today, I am pleased that I am taking my first steps by attending a multi-racial church. I figured the first thing I should do is transition out of my primarily black church because there aren't any single bm there my age, so how could I hope to meet a nonbm there?! It's really important for me to find someone who shares my values.
I'll never forget a story that Alice Walker told of visiting her alma mater Sarah Lawrence, and learning that a black female student there had just committed suicide after being mocked and attacked by her fellow black students for dating a white man--including some of her "brothas" who only dated white girls, white boys, or each other.
ReplyDeleteThis shows the vicious and animalistic nature of DBR black "men" and their stupid ass and cruel black "women" (real men and women would NEVER drive an innocent and vulnerable young woman to suicide) supporters.
If only that sista had known about this blog or Evia's. If only she had the love and support of normal people in her environment. What a shame and a loss.
"I can't claim to be an expert, but I have been in a happy, nurturing relationship with a wonderful man for 5 years, and we will be married next month. There's no reason why other bright, attractive, accomplished sisters can't have the same thing."
CONGRATULATIONS to you Aimee! You are correct. There is NO reason on God's green earth that other bright, attractive, and accomplished sistas can't have what you (and the rest of us women of color in loving relationships) have.
Oh my gosh, I have to confess I almost posted a response to the last anon poster. It took discipline to delete it, but I'm sad not to share my thoughts on his comments with you ladies! Oh well, hopefully discipline in ignoring them will make them go away.
ReplyDeleteI would love to provide some support to women seeking to date or in need of dating advice. I will contact you offline to get some ideas on ways to provide that, and supporting the step 2 concept.
ReplyDeleteHey Cali and Emerging Phoenix,
ReplyDeleteI live in the Bay Area too...looks like we're gathering a critical mass here in the Bay!
Cali I lean towards nerdiness too so I totally understand where you're coming from. And in my experience I've found that non-black men who are interested are often not as direct or may not approach at all, probably because they're uncertain how they'll be received.
I also think California dating habits are quite different from other parts of the country I've lived in. Seems to me that men here in general seem to be reluctant to be in a committed-leading-to-marriage relationship.
So I think any ideas on how to express openness to non-black men or sharing of experiences would be great.
I would also like to hear from the sisters who are dating men from other countries and/or Latino, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc men.
One last thing. I went to Turkey a couple of years ago and about lost my mind. Turkish men LOVE black women. I was treated like a queen the entire time I was there. I went with a blonde woman friend and let me tell you it was very, very hard for her to adjust to me getting all the attention rather than her.
In fact at points it was almost too much attention. I mean one guy chauffered us around Istanbul buying me flowers, baklavah, dinner just because he wanted to treat me well while I was there. Literally, I had men passing me in the street saying "black lady you are so beautiful". Another guy made a rose out of a paper napkin and gave it to me just because he thought I was beautiful. For the most part they were very respectful, but very clear that they were into us.
So ladies, if you every need a reminder of our beauty, add Turkey (especially Istanbul) to your travel agenda. You will be worshiped! :)
Aimee
ReplyDeleteThis always sets my teeth on edge--the "they just need to choose better" argument. As if BW have available to them this huge pool of quality, stable, FUNCTIONAL BM ready and willing to commit to BW and form black families, but for some reason, we just perversely choose the tiny percentage of DBRBM because of our addiction to thug love.
Aimee i am loving your posts, you dont waste time in identfying the heart of the matter. a lot of people in the community are playing the disengenious game with bw. they know that the choices bw make have a lot to do with the kind of men available to them, yet they continue to ignore this big elephant in the room, and instead blame bw for their choices because it would mean saying someything negative against the sacred cow that are bm and admitting how bad the apple barrel has become, and we all know how we cannot speak our minds about bm, rather we deflect any criticism unto bw. Indeed this blaming of bw for wrong choice falls in line with the deflection game.
Any other community would consider it absurd to tell their female doctors and engineers to "man-share" or date the garbageman so that the their male doctors and engineers are free to pursue non-BW or juggle multiple women guilt-free.
Preach on preacher!
i am gonna see if i can knock together some guidelines which i can toss with all of us here to see how we can take forward the stage 2 thing! I must say i am so impressed how you, and emerging have stepped forward, this is what big siserhood is about, and you will definitely be rewarded by the creator!
first thing i suggest is that you create a specific email (not your usual one), for this project, so you can maintain some boundaries!
Has anyone read this paper? It is a very interesting piece for discussion:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jpanafrican.com/docs/vol1no7/ItsAMANThang_JPASvol1no7.pdf
It is entitled:
“It’s a M-A-N Thang”: Black Male Gender Role Socialization and the Performance of Masculinity in Love Relationships” by Danielle M. Wallace, M.A., Department of African American Studies, Temple University
TJ
I'm sorry. the complete web address didn't show up. This is the second part of the address:
ReplyDeleteItsAMANThang_JPASvol1no7.pdf
TJ
Caligirl, Trvl and Aphrodite u could be our first projects! The aim could be to break you out of datelessness first and u can take it from there! So i hope you are ready to exchange your latest John Grisham novels for being bothered to go out, because lets face it, some of us have gotten a little too, comfortable with our own company and there is indeed a mindset that is conducive for relationships and it isnt the one that likes early nights!
ReplyDeleteand yes the idea of social plan is indeed the building block!
in first instance can u three supply this info:
how do you all feel about online dating/give us a list of diverse clubs and activities in your area for instance i think there are boating clubs in Bay area which is a good haunt of wm (bm you can meet at church lol!)
let me warn you that you might need to spend something for instance membership fees to the different clubs/online clubs.
I am a bit fuzy headed today because i have been on a course of pain killers. but i will tun it over a bit more and come up with some templates or tool kits!
I also think California dating habits are quite different from other parts of the country I've lived in. Seems to me that men here in general seem to be reluctant to be in a committed-leading-to-marriage relationship.
ReplyDeleteI think that this is an important point. I notice that a the posters here tend to be from the North East or West Coast where dating trends differ. I live in the South and it appears that black men in the South are more geared toward marriage and are less likely to date non-black women. Also, black men in the South seem to be less likely to be unemployed that men from the North East. That's just my observation. Maybe you ladies should consider moving. Southern men tend to be more gentlemanly.
TJ
Hey Halima!
ReplyDeleteGirl, you sure did call me out. I really am kind of bookish and I have a pretty intense work schedule so getting out and about is a challenge.
And to meet the non-black man, you need to frequent his habitats. It seems to me that non-black men (white guys in particular) are really into the great outdoors around here (hiking, biking, whitewater rafting, etc), so I've been contemplating doing some of those activities. Last week I went kayaking at a local lake and so I might try to connect with groups doing that. I even thought of taking fencing lessons to not only connect with men, but also to get that amazing fencer's butt! LOL I mean have you seen one, there's beautiful. LOL
All that aside, I believe the biggest factor in attracting male attention is your attitude and the energy you project. In the last few weeks I've been feeling more confident and attractive and sure enough I've met more men during that time then before.
So maybe another part of our strategy is honestly assessing just how open we are to relationship and doing what needs to be done emotionally, physically, and mentally to put us in that place.
Re Last post of Anon
ReplyDeleteI didn't putdown bw, or any of the black female bloggers in my response. I merely spoke from MY perspetive as to what I saw as a potential danger of this blog to become anti-bm(which it already is) and ultimately anti-black period. I raised points about some of what I feel are erroneous conclusions reached about bm and the black community.
BM came unto this blog to thrash us, are we suppose to ignore whatever ugly words they were saying here. There neede to be a quick response to their insults and that is what i provided in the subsequesnt entries, i put their actions and similar ones in context. Yet you would have my hands tied behind my back while bm feel free to trash us with impunity. this alone tells me that you are not fairminded.
This will be my last contribution to this blog because obviously BM just are not wanted around here, because were are BM.
BM are not wanted here because by an large they have shown themselves incapable of rising above their personal interests and giving bw room to be in the centre of discussion. all they do is lecture us on what is appropriate and right for us to talk about (in other words make sure you dont say anything negative about bm and me by extension), or tell us that our experinces are invalid and that we should accept their intepretation of events. they get way too emotional and take discussions personal, hence they are nothing but a hinderance to our deliberations as bw trying to find clarity for our situation.
All other men black or white, who are able to support bw in their quest for clarity and to move forward are welcome, you havent sown this capability yet!
How can it be that bm are the ONLY group of men called out for their treatment of bw, the ONLY men collectively criticized, the ONLY men portrayed as being against bw, the ONLY men portrayed as hurting bw?
This is because by and large they are the ones who have done this, or would you be more comfortable to deny that bm are the major causes of injury to bw both physical, emotional and social.
Where are those experiences, where are non bm taken to task for THEIR sexism, and general hatred of bw? Yet, the ONLY negative comments concerning MALE behavior FOCUS LIKE A LASER BEAM ON BM.
Once again you prove yourself incapable of removing yourself from the centre of dicussions even here on a black female blog, you wont be missed!
okay are you already ready to laugh...
ReplyDeleteNo sooner did I press send on my last message when a very attractive white man came up to me and asked me if he could borrow some of my newspaper (I'm sitting in my favorite cafe). Turns out he's looking to travel overseas and being trvlrgrl you know I was all over that. We had a nice conversation and in fact he just took a seat right next to me. So I might just check out of the conversation for awhile and check him out LOL
Trvlrgrl said...
ReplyDelete"I also think California dating habits are quite different from other parts of the country I've lived in. Seems to me that men here in general seem to be reluctant to be in a committed-leading-to-marriage relationship."
I agree. Maybe Caligirl, you (Trvlrgrl), and myself (and whoever else is in the bay area) should form an IR dating support group? There are a lot of activities to do in the Bay area, and getting out and participating is key to increasing your chances of meeting that special someone. I have already done a lot in terms of camping, hiking, and other outdoor things. I love to get outside and try to do it as much as often.
LOL @ Trvlrgrl!! Let us know how it goes.
Take as long as u like trvgrl, in fact see ya in three months, when you come up for air and just decide to see how we been doing lol!
ReplyDeleteEmergingP, my computer is playing up so bear with me and i will get back to you on your email tommorrow!
ReplyDeleteAny other community would consider it absurd to tell their female doctors and engineers to "man-share" or date the garbageman so that the their male doctors and engineers are free to pursue non-BW or juggle multiple women guilt-free.
ReplyDeleteKind of puts you in mind of that movie that was out recently "Daddy's little girls".
Of course the Mom in the movie just had to be a drug dealer and the female lead had to be brought to her senses so that she could end up with the mechanic.
Just curious. How much do you ladies believe that the opinions of these women being interviewed represent AA women in general?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3wa_snr_no&mode=related&search=
I have a question:
ReplyDeleteIf there were more 'high-quality' Black men who dated Black women solely, would you still date White men?
By 'high quality' I mean intelligent, ambitious, kind, handsome and loving.
Kara
All that aside, I believe the biggest factor in attracting male attention is your attitude and the energy you project. In the last few weeks I've been feeling more confident and attractive and sure enough I've met more men during that time then before.
ReplyDeleteSo maybe another part of our strategy is honestly assessing just how open we are to relationship and doing what needs to be done emotionally, physically, and mentally to put us in that place.
And this has always been the thrust of my blog. A LOT has to do with ATTITUDE. If you're reasonably attractive and feel beautiful, you will "act" beautiful or show it in some way--or show that you KNOW that you are worthy. This is why it's so important not to be in environments where "negative" energy about black femalehood is thrown around like at those poisonous blogs and boards that some sistas stay on. You will absorb that negativity. Spending time around positive people in a positive or at least non-negative environment is very, very important.
As I said, since I've been mostly around men who declare that I'm okay the way I am, I always feel attractive and worthy around men. I have no idea how I really look. LOL!! I've just never spent time or more than a minute around people who don't appreciate me--male or female.
On the subject of wm, I think it's totally important not to gravitate towards white males who spend lots of time around DBRbm. Y'all know who I mean--those "cool" wm who are so-called 'down with the brothas'--like Eminem--or those bm wannabe white men who think that if they act like a bm, they can pull the females. LOL!! This is because those males might tend to view you the way the DBRbm view you. For ex. a typical, well-adjusted wm who likes and appreciates bw doesn't care whether you wear a weave, twists, braids, perm, afro, etc. or wonders whether your hair is your hair, and is, of course, not fixated on whether his friends will think you can pass the paper bag test. He's not into hair or complexion. He just likes an attractive, well-groomed, intelligent woman with a good ATTITUDE, good values, who can hold a good conversation. He's not into hair length or hair texture. He likes the way you make him feel. He knows that you're not a blond even if your hair is dyed blond and knows that your hair is not straight even if you have a perm and he doesn't care. However if he's a wannabe DBRbm, he may be scoping your hairdo and complexion. Sad, but true.
For ex. Darren said it's his opinion that most wm think that when a woman dyes her hair, wears a wig, sticks on a hairpiece, wears a weave, gets a curly or straight perm, etc.--that she's doing it for dramatic effect or for an occasion or to do something different to turn him (the man) on. He says that a typical wm figures this is just a temporary change and that maybe in a few months, the woman will have another look of some sort--either au natural or other. It's just not a big deal. Darren therefore can't understand why there's so much hoopla in the black community over how black women wear their hair or whether they're wearing a weave, wig, straight hair, nappy hair, etc. Black women's hair and hairstyles are even discussed in our church, y'all (a predominantly black church) during church services and to him this is just mindboggling that the black minister would be talking about black women's hair during the sermon. LOL!!!!!!
Anyway, there are some sistas who like these "cool" wm--the ones who can 'hang' with "cool" black folks. LOL! IMO, this is just ridiculous. It's not important. I think it's very important for him to know that you want him to just be himself. It's important that he knows that you don't expect him to "act" black--especially if he's younger. (More mature white men will tend to just be themselves.) Anyway, you may need to work this into one of your initial conversations with him because some wm I encountered think that a bw wants a wm to act "cool" or that a bw might think that wm are boring.
Some black folks may like a wm you're dating and others may not due to their prejudices (to be expected) and discomfort around white folks. Of course, this may also be the case when he takes you around white folks. Some of the black folks who I initially introduced Darren to did not like him and would ask me, "why is he like this? Or "why does he have that expression on his face?" Or "why isn't he talking?" Or "He's probably thinking that we sound stupid." Or they would want to know afterward what he thought about them. LOL! They tended to think that he was thinking the worst about them, whereas many times, he was thinking about something else altogether.
Just last week, a bw who'd met him at church told me that she feels uncomfortable around him because he wasn't smiling when other people were smiling and that he was looking "mean." She didn't realize she was bringing her own issues about white people up and expected him to make her feel comfortable with "white people." A wm is just one white individual. He's not "white people." A well-adjusted wm doesn't want to relate to you as "black people." He wants to relate to you as a desirable woman--not a "black" woman.
And I can't stress this enough. When you're with a wm you like, you've got to try really hard to stop feeling like a "black" woman. You've got to just be a "WOMAN." Just be a natural woman. Don't try to "act black." Also, don't try to act like you're "not black." Whew!
Just relax. Talk naturally. For ex. I grew up down south. I don't have a pronounced southern accent, but I use a lot of southernisms when I talk. Darren and all the wm I dated were all from the north or midwest. But they didn't care how I talk. I use BAVE (black american vernacular english) sometimes and I wasn't about to try to change that. However, I also speak standard English most of the time. I guess I kinda talk like Oprah who grew up in Tennessee. (I grew up in Alabama.) The thing is that if a wm is really into you and sees you as an attractive woman of quality, he'll adjust to you and will also make sure that other white folks in his social circle treat you with respect. He'll pave the way.
Anyway back to you and him. At first, just be mildly flirtatious, especially with your eyes. Make sure you do lots of flirty things with your eyes. Smile. Wiggle your shoulders slightly. When you can work all three at once--your eyes, your smile, and your shoulders, you can score bigtime with lots of men.
"If there were more 'high-quality' Black men who dated Black women solely, would you still date White men?
ReplyDeleteBy 'high quality' I mean intelligent, ambitious, kind, handsome and loving."
Welcome Kara. To answer your question I certainly would. There are a number of BW who haven't had these horrific experiences with brothas. I'm one of them.
Some sistas simply prefer WM. Just like some men of various races prefer BW. Others prefer blondes, Asians, etc. You catch my drift.
Some folks don't have physical preferences at all and are attracted to a rainbow of different appearances.
Different strokes for different folks.
Personally I've NEVER encountered a BW who preferred WM denounce and defame uniformly BM (and encourage others to) the way MANY BM who prefer WW do.
Then why do you spotlight Paul Wall on your blog?
ReplyDeleteROFLMAO! Paul Wall is being "spotlighted". I've got to give Paul Wall credit, he married the mother of his child.
More than I can say for a LOT of some other folks.
Personally I've NEVER encountered a BW who preferred WM denounce and defame uniformly BM (and encourage others to) the way MANY BM who prefer WW do.
ReplyDeleteaint that the truth!
I know very few women who are totally closed off to bm in their ir choices, even those who are, keep it close to their chest.
Also i dont know why bw feel it necessary to align their actions closely with everything bm do. cant they just feel free to date whomever and just open up to the world!
I wish bw would begin to see themselves as free entities rather than women bound to live by strict codes!
TVGRL, and Emerging_Phoenix, I would love to have some sista friends to hang out with as I widen my social circle to include places where there are men of all types. I must admit that the majority of my bw friends are in the bm only tip, so I've never been able to get out and be active with them. I could use some company.
ReplyDeleteOne bw frien took me to a party for professional bm, and when we arrived I knew I was in the wrong place. The men turned on BET Uncut in mixed company with women they didn't know! I thought that was tasteless and lacked respect. I've told my friend that she can't take me to any more "black" parties if that's how people will conduct themselves, so she doesn't invite me anymore. The bm at these parties are oversexed and the women there go to dressed to get sexed. Not places for the marriage minded woman!
Anyhow, I went to church with a friend today. It was a LARGE church with a congregation that represented the diversity of the Bay Area. In fact, the pastor, a wm is married to a bw! Every few minutes people asked me if I'm single and the pastor asks singles to identify themselves. Their singles ministry is active and does activities together. I was so pleased.
As for social networks, I have a running list of the things I've always wanted to do here. I even know about French and European social and professional networks. I've been to shy to go alone and like I said, my ego's bruised with the "they don't want bw" mantra.
Y'all can help me get out of that! Even just to go out with like minded women will refresh my spirit regardless of the dating prospects!
Sorry for the long post. I'm so excited.
"I have a question:
ReplyDeleteIf there were more 'high-quality' Black men who dated Black women solely, would you still date White men?
By 'high quality' I mean intelligent, ambitious, kind, handsome and loving."
Of course, what woman wouldn't? I have to admit that sadly, in California, there aren't many, so I've only dated one black man my entire life, and I'm 36.
P.S. I will only participate if y'all will spare me from dating really liberal wm who whine as much as bm! I won't date wm who think I'm oppressed and pity me because the system "holds me down". Sadly, I'm a recovering liberal because I got tired of the pity party. It's been two months since my last picket.
ReplyDeleteI say all of this with a smile, but for real.
ROFLMAO! Paul Wall is being "spotlighted". I've got to give Paul Wall credit, he married the mother of his child.
ReplyDeleteMore than I can say for a LOT of some other folks.
WORD.
Beautiful wedding pics below...
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=29718807&postID=7413000479661783538
I have a question:
ReplyDeleteIf there were more 'high-quality' Black men who dated Black women solely, would you still date White men?
By 'high quality' I mean intelligent, ambitious, kind, handsome and loving.
Kara
Brenda's response: My answer is yes. Why should a Black Woman have to limit herself to one race of man.
Caligirl said..."Sadly, I'm a recovering liberal because I got tired of the pity party. It's been two months since my last picket."
ReplyDeleteToo funny!! I know exactly what you mean. Don't worry, no pity party here. Do you speak any French? I would be interested in the French and European groups. I joined several francophile groups, but haven't gone for the same reason. Lately, they haven't been as active either. Bastille day is coming up on SAturday, July 14th. There are a few things going on. I am going to try and attend an event. Let me know if you're interested.
I am so saddened by this group. I was truly hoping for discourse that went beyond the old tropes of race. As a black woman, I've dated all kinds of men. American, European, White, Black, Latino and everything else. The one thing I can say and the only support I can offer any woman here is that men are men. Race doesn't make a man treat you better or value you any more. If a man is a "troll," as you all say, he's a troll no matter what his race, ethnicity, or nationality. If you truly want a loving relationship, love yourself. I am open to dating anyone, regardless of race; there's no trick in that. There's no magic bullet to finding love. Finally, one last observation, if you all truly want to expand your horizons and "reach beyond race," then there would be no need to blame others, black men especially, for your unhappiness. Most importantly, it is not necessary to demean or belittle other men to make other dating options more attractive. Date with an open mind. By the level of discourse here what you are doing is simply stereotyping your future mates and that seems totally counter to your state objectives.
ReplyDeleteBest,
One Truly Disappointed Progressive Reader
" Halima said...
ReplyDeleteCaligirl, Trvl and Aphrodite u could be our first projects! The aim could be to break you out of datelessness first and u can take it from there! So i hope you are ready to exchange your latest John Grisham novels for being bothered to go out, because lets face it, some of us have gotten a little too, comfortable with our own company and there is indeed a mindset that is conducive for relationships and it isnt the one that likes early nights!"
Ok now that I am over the initial shock of actually moving towards dating...LOL
Wow and to think I started reading this blog like two weeks ago!
I will have to think about/research venues that I would like to go to because I must confess - I haven't been out in a very long time.
There's no magic bullet to finding love. Finally, one last observation, if you all truly want to expand your horizons and "reach beyond race," then there would be no need to blame others, black men especially, for your unhappiness.
ReplyDeleteExactly Anon... this site should be called Black Women's Sour Grapes with the way they carry on.
Also, I predict this site will have the deleterious affect of driving black men away from more black women; thereby increasing the number of single black women.
There's no magic bullet to finding love. Finally, one last observation, if you all truly want to expand your horizons and "reach beyond race," then there would be no need to blame others, black men especially, for your unhappiness.
ReplyDeleteExactly Anon... this site should be called Black Women's Sour Grapes with the way they carry on.
Also, I predict this site will have the deleterious affect of driving black men away from more black women; thereby increasing the number of single black women.
It would be a blessing if EVERY DBR BM stopped preying on BW and children.
TODAY.
Single BW these days are single by CHOICE. There is a WORLD of wonderful men to choose from. If BW continue to NOT shop in this market, they have only themselves to blame for their situation.
"Finally, one last observation, if you all truly want to expand your horizons and "reach beyond race," then there would be no need to blame others, black men especially, for your unhappiness."
ReplyDeleteWhat I see is BW expressing their unhappiness (which is completely warranted) AT A COMMUNITY (that they've broken their backs for needlessly) that downplays - and tolerates - the sexism and misogyny practiced by DBR BM AGAINST BW. A COMMUNITY full of double standards and hypocrisy concerning the issue of IR relationships.
BM who have NOT contributed to the many well known problems and pathologies plaguing the black community HAVE NOT AND NEVER WILL BE blamed at this blog.
Most importantly, it is not necessary to demean or belittle other men to make other dating options more attractive.
I agree 100%. That's why that's not being done.
Date with an open mind. By the level of discourse here what you are doing is simply stereotyping your future mates and that seems totally counter to your state objectives."
By the level of discourse here, some BW are discovering for the first time how to evaluate men PERIOD. How to distinguish between those who are worthy of their time, consideration & concern (and are good husband and father material) and those who clearly aren't. That is completely in line with the stated objectives of this blog.
Also, I predict this site will have the deleterious affect of driving black men away from more black women; thereby increasing the number of single black women.
ReplyDeleteLOL This "scare tactic" is STALE. Any BM TRULY interested in a particular BW will not be dissuaded by anything he reads here.
If he's righteous, we're not talking about him anyway.
However if he IS dissuaded, then he wasn't truly interested in the sista in the first place.
And it's good he doesn't waste her time.
^^^
ReplyDeleteLol! Bw cant do anything without wondering how this affects her relationship to bm.
the word bondage comes to mind!
Dear Truly Disappointed Progressive Reader:
ReplyDeleteAs a fellow progressive, I'm sorry you're disappointed by this blog (which I wholeheartedly support)-- but, if you sincerely believe that "men are men," and there are no meaningful differences in the way that different groups of men approach relationships with women and family, I understand why you are disappointed.
Apparently, in your experience, there are not simply substantially more marriageable BW than BM. In your experience, it is simply happenstance that BW are less likely to marry than any other demographic in this country, and that BM are more likely to marry IR, be imprisoned, live separately from their minor children or die prematurely than any other group of men in this country.
Perhaps in your experience these collective realities have had no individual impact, and are thus irrelevant. If so, I am glad for you. However, that has not been the case for all BW.
Many BW are faced not only with a limited number of BM in their communities, but a tremendous amount of disrespect, hostility and abuse from the BM who are around, who have internalized the larger society's contempt for BW while simultaneously decrying the discrimination that same society continues to impose on them.
For these BW, who, unlike yourself, have often consciously chosen to restrict their romantic options to BM and BM only, finding a healthy relationship with ANY man will require that they examine WHY conditions within our community have evolved to a point where the only healthy choice they can make is to open their options.
You interpret this analysis as "blaming" or "belittling" BM-- but as a progressive person, you know that when people refuse to continue being victims, reclaim their autonomy and openly confront those who wish to continue victimizing them, the common response from the exposed parties and their defenders is to disclaim responsibility and attempt to refocus the conversation away from their wrongdoing and onto how hurt and "demeaned" they feel by being called out.
As a progressive, I seriously doubt that you generally meet criticisms of racism and sexism with platitudes about not placing blame and people being people. But, as Halima has pointed out, it is common for liberals--as opposed to progressives--to identify blacks as men, women as white, and BW as invisible. Thus, the racism and sexism of WW and BM becomes invisible as well. Use your progressive analytical skills to examine this issue more honestly.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI have a question:
If there were more 'high-quality' Black men who dated Black women solely, would you still date White men?
By 'high quality' I mean intelligent, ambitious, kind, handsome and loving.
Kara
Hi,
I'm the "Kara" that used to comment on Evia's blog before she turned off the comments.
I just wanted to clarify that the Anon above is not me.
Otherwise, great post as usual Halima. I see you ladies have handled the trolls quite well in here LOL!!
caligirl94117 said...
ReplyDeleteOf course, what woman wouldn't? I have to admit that sadly, in California, there aren't many, so I've only dated one black man my entire life, and I'm 36.
Fair enough. In reply to your question, I wouldn't.
Seeing as there is already a Kara, I will identify myself as Kara 2. I hope that doesn't confuse anybody!
Kara 2
Brenda's response: My answer is yes. Why should a Black Woman have to limit herself to one race of man.
ReplyDeleteUmmm, no offence but what does this, 'Why should a Black women have to limit herself to one race of man', have to do with my question?
Kara 2
Evia said:
ReplyDeleteFor ex. a typical, well-adjusted wm who likes and appreciates bw doesn't care whether you wear a weave, twists, braids, perm, afro, etc. or wonders whether your hair is your hair...
^^^^^^
I find this quite difficult to believe. But then again, those are your experiences......
Kara 2
I have another question:
ReplyDeleteDo you encourage your Black female friends to date interracially? Are you more inclined to introduce them to White men?
I am just trying to get an understanding of the mindsets here.
Thanks
Kara 2
Evia said:
ReplyDeleteFor ex. a typical, well-adjusted wm who likes and appreciates bw doesn't care whether you wear a weave, twists, braids, perm, afro, etc. or wonders whether your hair is your hair...
^^^^^^
I find this quite difficult to believe. But then again, those are your experiences......
Kara 2
My own experience has been different, and I can speak only of my own wonderful hubby since I have never been with any man, black or white, besides him.
He dislikes weaves, braid extensions, and fake hair. But he also dislikes improbable hair colors, fake nails, breast enlargements, nose jobs and heavy makeup. etc. etc.
This is all regardless of the ethnicity/color of the woman in question. He is as opposed to Gwen Stefani's dye job as he is to Beyonce's weave. LOL.
Kara 2
ReplyDeletewhy are you trying to sus us out like if we are a cult or something. we do not abide by a code of conduct here, were we all need to think and believe in concert, most of us are open to ir and thats about it.
with the questions you posed, you can see that we all come out with individual answers.
so is there a point to this mindset sussing or is it just game playing?
Halima,
ReplyDeleteI've read a couple of comments on this blog that have been interesting to say in the least. That's what led me to pose these questions.
I just wanted to know why some of the ladies came to the decision of dating a White man. There's no hidden agenda here.
I can't relate to finding White men desirable, so I posed the questions to get an understanding (beyond physical) as to why some Black women date White men.
No more, no less.
Kara 2
Forever Loyal said:
ReplyDeleteMy own experience has been different, and I can speak only of my own wonderful hubby since I have never been with any man, black or white, besides him.
He dislikes weaves, braid extensions, and fake hair. But he also dislikes improbable hair colors, fake nails, breast enlargements, nose jobs and heavy makeup. etc. etc.
This is all regardless of the ethnicity/color of the woman in question. He is as opposed to Gwen Stefani's dye job as he is to Beyonce's weave. LOL.
Thank you for replying. Your answer is a contradiction to Evia's broad claim that the typical White male doesn't pay attention to these things.
I thought otherwise.
Men of all races are quite capable of being fixated on the superficial qualities of a woman.
Kara 2
Kara 2
ReplyDeletei am not going to suggest that you have a chromosone missing and that why you cant find wm attractive, in the same way i hope you can be open minded enough to recognise that some of us can and it isnt some sort of defect in our human template.
no one is forcing you to date wm if you dont want to, so u shouldnt feel a need to be here engaging us, its of no use really, neither do you need to suss us out in anyway because we are just normal women who have normal and natural taste in male humanity of which white men are a part!
I just wanted to know why some of the ladies came to the decision of dating a White man. There's no hidden agenda here.
ReplyDeleteI can't relate to finding White men desirable, so I posed the questions to get an understanding (beyond physical) as to why some Black women date White men.
No more, no less.
If you've been reading this blog, it should be abundently clear to you why the women here have chosen date IR (which by the way, doesn't necessarily = dating a WM).
I don't think anyone here would try to convince you or anyone else to do something they're absolutely opposed to doing. If you're happy with your choices, congratulations and enjoy. We'll do the same.
Halima,
ReplyDeleteThe attitude is not needed. I posed 2 simple questions. I did not attack you or any other member for dating White men.
Many Black women aren't interested in White. I suppose we're all missing something..................
Please stop jumping to conclusions.
Kara 2
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteIf you've been reading this blog, it should be abundently clear to you why the women here have chosen date IR (which by the way, doesn't necessarily = dating a WM).
I don't think anyone here would try to convince you or anyone else to do something they're absolutely opposed to doing. If you're happy with your choices, congratulations and enjoy. We'll do the same.
Judging by some of the comments, I believe that SOME of the ladies on this blog have been rejected or hurt by Black men. It explains alot.
Some haven't. I'm not going to generalize.
I'm not trying to convinve you or anybody else of anything. If you find white men attractive, then good luck to you.
Kara 2
Kara 2, I'm not sure where you live or what your experiences have been that make it difficult for you to appreciate wm.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking for myself, and only myself. As a Californian, I've lived in extremely diverse communities, in most cases there are more non-bm than bm, so I grew to appreciate men period regardless of race. I have to also add that in my upbringing and education, there were not a lot of bm around who shared my space, so I saw fewer bm in general. I HAD to adjust my thinking to be broad and inclusive because bm represenation in my personal sphere has been very small. Of black student enrollment at my university, more than 80% of us were bw, in graduate school the ratio was 6 to 1 bw to bm. I learned to appreciate the beauty of all men. I can get as excited about Denzel Washington as I can about Andy Garcia, and Prince William of England (he's young for me, but the boy is cute). Oops, I forgot to mention Chow Yun Fat!
If I could choose my preferred non-bm, French, Italians, and Latinos are highest on the list in that order.
I'm not exclusive to non-bm, but I my instincts told me that I had to be open living in California as I watched the number of young bm around me disappear the longer I stayed in school and once I was working, I had even less contact with bm. When I found a clique of professional bm in this area, I learned that the bm are playing a game based on the surplus of bw. I have to be open and think of a man as a man, because I'm not keen on sharing and I won't warp my life to compete or share a successful bm.
"Many Black women aren't interested in White. I suppose we're all missing something."
ReplyDeleteHi Kara,
I can see your point. My question is, what do you as a black women do to find loving relationship if there aren't enough positive, marriageable bm around you who will marry a bw? Would you consider dating other non-bm? If not, can you happily accept the status quo? If so, then I'm happy for those bw and accept that IR dating won't make them happy. I have friends who will only date bm and have chosen the status quo. I respect their choice, and leave the topic alone.
Lastly, I wouldn't limit bw choices to wm. America is full of non-white and non-black men. .
Hi Kara 2,
ReplyDelete"Judging by some of the comments, I believe that SOME of the ladies on this blog have been rejected or hurt by Black men. It explains alot."
What does it explain?
Judging by some of the comments, I believe that SOME of the ladies on this blog have been rejected or hurt by Black men. It explains alot.
ReplyDeleteVirtually every adult on the planet over the age of 18 has been hurt or rejected. Being hurt in relationships is not unique to this blog, and explains nothing about why someone chooses (or chooses not) to date IR.
I'm not trying to convinve you or anybody else of anything. If you find white men attractive, then good luck to you.
I don't need luck. I have my health, my family, and a happy marriage. :-)
I don't need luck. I have my health, my family, and a happy marriage. :-)
ReplyDeleteDITTO on that! :^0 Fact is there are some miserable and threatened wretches (both male and female) out there who want to give us the third degree, and have us second guessing ourselves, when they're the ones having their world view as black people challenged for perhaps the first time in their lives.
It makes them uncomfortable to think there are free thinking BW out there untied to the black communities wants, needs, and desires.
BW happily and successfully dating and married to white men and other non black men.
That's a BIG "no no". Especially WM.
We're considered "dangerous" so the prying, once over, and questioning, never ceases.
Desperately hoping we'll "slip up" with our comments. So like sharks they can "move in for the kill".
Just sad...
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBrenda's response: My answer is yes. Why should a Black Woman have to limit herself to one race of man.
Ummm, no offence but what does this, 'Why should a Black women have to limit herself to one race of man', have to do with my question?
Kara 2
Re-read your question. What my response has to do with your question is to answer it.
If there were more 'high-quality' Black men who dated Black women solely, would you still date White men?
By 'high quality' I mean intelligent, ambitious, kind, handsome and loving.
Kara
Brenda's response: My answer is yes. Why should a Black Woman have to limit herself to one race of man.
Brenda's response: My answer is yes. Why should a Black Woman have to limit herself to one race of man.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely, Brenda. The thought of bw being genuinely sexually and emotionally attracted to white men or other non-bm men is so frightening to so many. LOL! Keep believing the hype that the bw don't find non-bm truly desirable.
I have encountered bw offline and online who seen to have a fascination and repulsion to IR's w/ wm. I never understood the mentality because if you're not into wm then why are you seeking IR boards out? Why do you want bw who date IR to bare their souls and qualify themselves to you? You never like the answers anyway so just move on.
I knew one bw in one of my undergrad classes who was dating this white guy, he was really a hunk. One of the other bw classmates would talk about her behind her back saying how disgusting it was she dating this guy. Some us in class had to wonder if she wasn't jealous and secretly wanted him because she would always bring this couple up and talk negatively about IR way too much. Anyone who is investigating and seeking people to explain themselves have their own personal issues with IR and it makes them uncomfortable to see other people not tow the line like them so they have to find a way to invalidate it to make themselves feel better.
TRUISMS phoenix_sun TRUISMS.
ReplyDelete"I knew one bw in one of my undergrad classes who was dating this white guy, he was really a hunk. One of the other bw classmates would talk about her behind her back saying how disgusting it was she dating this guy. Some us in class had to wonder if she wasn't jealous and secretly wanted him because she would always bring this couple up and talk negatively about IR way too much."
This b!tch was jealous!LOL Because when folks get FIXATED on others and can't let go - like what this chick was doing with the sista with the fine azz WM - it's something deep going on. They're taking it personal.
It's the crabs in a barrel mentality. A lot of black folks (BW too) CAN'T STAND IT when BW are genuinely happy and content. Because miserly loves company.
We've escaped the long suffering & sacrificial box (coffin) others - most especially other blacks - try to put us in.
And these disturbed blacks feel we're "stealing their limelight" or "drawing attention to ourselves" when we're in open loving relationships with non black men. Especially WM.
LOL Screw 'em. Every last one.
"Anyone who is investigating and seeking people to explain themselves have their own personal issues with IR and it makes them uncomfortable to see other people not tow the line like them so they have to find a way to invalidate it to make themselves feel better."
Ain't THAT the truth.
"I knew one bw in one of my undergrad classes who was dating this white guy, he was really a hunk. One of the other bw classmates would talk about her behind her back saying how disgusting it was she dating this guy. Some us in class had to wonder if she wasn't jealous and secretly wanted him because she would always bring this couple up and talk negatively about IR way too much."
ReplyDeleteHey Brenda, this experience sounded a little deeper than that. She was not only jealous, but she was conflicted by her own attraction to the man. She was probably a fence sitter who verbally said "no way" to IR, but in her mind thought "He's fine, but I can't let other bw know I feel this way because they'll embarrass me". She decided to get in front of the parade against it to prove she wasn't interested in IR.
caligirl94117 said...
ReplyDeleteKara 2, I'm not sure where you live or what your experiences have been that make it difficult for you to appreciate wm.
Speaking for myself, and only myself. As a Californian, I've lived in extremely diverse communities, in most cases there are more non-bm than bm, so I grew to appreciate men period regardless of race. I have to also add that in my upbringing and education, there were not a lot of bm around who shared my space, so I saw fewer bm in general. I HAD to adjust my thinking to be broad and inclusive because bm represenation in my personal sphere has been very small. Of black student enrollment at my university, more than 80% of us were bw, in graduate school the ratio was 6 to 1 bw to bm. I learned to appreciate the beauty of all men. I can get as excited about Denzel Washington as I can about Andy Garcia, and Prince William of England (he's young for me, but the boy is cute). Oops, I forgot to mention Chow Yun Fat!
If I could choose my preferred non-bm, French, Italians, and Latinos are highest on the list in that order.
I'm not exclusive to non-bm, but I my instincts told me that I had to be open living in California as I watched the number of young bm around me disappear the longer I stayed in school and once I was working, I had even less contact with bm. When I found a clique of professional bm in this area, I learned that the bm are playing a game based on the surplus of bw. I have to be open and think of a man as a man, because I'm not keen on sharing and I won't warp my life to compete or share a successful bm.
Thanks for answering me without resorting to 'ABW' syndrome. lol ;)
I just don't find White men desirable. Just as I don't like Asian.
Kara 2
Brenda's response: My answer is yes. Why should a Black Woman have to limit herself to one race of man.
ReplyDeleteUmmm, no offence but what does this, 'Why should a Black women have to limit herself to one race of man', have to do with my question?
Kara 2
Re-read your question. What my response has to do with your question is to answer it.
Nevermind
Kara 2
Virtually every adult on the planet over the age of 18 has been hurt or rejected. Being hurt in relationships is not unique to this blog, and explains nothing about why someone chooses (or chooses not) to date IR.
ReplyDeleteI don't need luck. I have my health, my family, and a happy marriage. :-)
Judging by some of the remarks, it seems as though a lack of quality Black men is the motivating factor for actively pursuing white men, rather than a genuine attraction to them. imo
But that is from SOME of the remarks. Some of you like to jump to conclusions, so I am making this very clear.
Kara 2
"Many Black women aren't interested in White. I suppose we're all missing something."
ReplyDeleteHi Kara,
I can see your point. My question is, what do you as a black women do to find loving relationship if there aren't enough positive, marriageable bm around you who will marry a bw? Would you consider dating other non-bm? If not, can you happily accept the status quo? If so, then I'm happy for those bw and accept that IR dating won't make them happy. I have friends who will only date bm and have chosen the status quo. I respect their choice, and leave the topic alone.
Lastly, I wouldn't limit bw choices to wm. America is full of non-white and non-black men. .
I have dated IR in the past. I'm talking to a Lebanese guy at the mo.
I don't have a problem with IR. I can't understand what you guys see in white men, but to each his/her own.
Thank you for not taking offence or copping an attitude to my questions. I was curious as to why Black women feel white men are the next best option. That's all.
Kara 2
"I have dated IR in the past. I'm talking to a Lebanese guy at the mo.
ReplyDeleteI don't have a problem with IR. I can't understand what you guys see in white men, but to each his/her own.
Thank you for not taking offence or copping an attitude to my questions. I was curious as to why Black women feel white men are the next best option. That's all."
Hi Kara 2,
Thanks for your response. It looks like you're open to a type of IR, just not bw/wm. That's cool. In my opinion that type of openness to the world of available men is what it will take for us bw to find quality spouses. You didn't rule out Latinos, so is that another opening for you? If it is, then great. Find an IR that pleases you. I secretely am a big fan of Latinos over wm. I won't exclude wm, though. If a great wm meets me first, then he wins.
I don't think the women on this board consider wm second best to black men. I think many of us consider all men equally. Most have said repeatedly, they would love ANY man who showed them proper love and respect. That's the point of the board, to broaden our horizons.
Re-read your question. What my response has to do with your question is to answer it."
ReplyDeleteLadies remember, no one is obliged to answer ANYONE'S questions here. Less more Kara 2's.
"I just don't find White men desirable. Just as I don't like Asian."
Then Kara 2's time would obviously best be spent trying to attract a positive relationship with a BM instead of questioning those who are attracted to and interested in dating WM and other non BM. Those of us who are already happily and successfully married to white and other non black men.
If Kara 2 has found such a relationship, the question does beg to be asked why she is here? There are any number of black oriented blogs, websites, & message boards where she would be in like-minded company. And could even share tips so desperately needed by BW who share her attraction to BM (who more often than not don't share the same level of attraction - if at all - to women like kara 2).
If she hasn't, she better get BUSY on her search because the cards are statistically stacked against her finding a lovable, well educated and gainfully employed, non color-struck BM interested in marrying a BW like herself.
Time spent here on an IR board geared towards BW interested in WM and others is clearly a waste of Kara 2's precious time.
It certainly makes one wonder what Kara 2's TRUE reason for being here is.
Judging by some of the remarks, it seems as though a lack of quality Black men is the motivating factor for actively pursuing white men, rather than a genuine attraction to them. imo
ReplyDeleteBut that is from SOME of the remarks. Some of you like to jump to conclusions, so I am making this very clear.
Kara 2
___________________________________
Wow. Physician, heal thyself . . .
"It certainly makes one wonder what Kara 2's TRUE reason for being here is."
ReplyDeleteIt sure does. "She's" real good at asking questions but tends to avoid answering them. Interesting.
"Judging by some of the remarks, it seems as though a lack of quality Black men is the motivating factor for actively pursuing white men, rather than a genuine attraction to them. imo"
Judging by this remark alone, it appears as though Kara 2 has a deep need for this to be the case.
And that pushing this lie is one of the motivating factors for her being here.
JUST LIKE DBR BM trolls typically do.
Hmmmm... I wonder if there's a connection?
Sounds like more than just a coincidence.
I know any BW SERIOUS about establishing a relationship with a BM ain't here.
And any BW who's already in one, ain't here either. And if she is, she's certainly not trying to push and agenda or spread misinformation like kara 2 is.
"Thanks for answering me without resorting to 'ABW' syndrome. lol ;)"
ReplyDeleteKara 2's comment above made me think about something. Kara 2 this is not directed at your reply, it's a brainstorm. Halima, I think we need a post about the Myth of the ABW and the damage it's doing to our image inside and outside our community.
I've never been an Angry Black Woman. In fact there are very few people who have ever heard me raise my voice. I'm generally calm and soft-spoken, and a conflict avoider rather than a drama junkie. I can debate an issue or tell a man he's crossed the line, but never with attitude.
I've had people step back when they hear me speak because they hold a stereotype of the ABW. I once had a man tell me that my sweet soft voice belied my appearance. I took it as a compliment because I knew what he was thinking.
Many of us who were raised by nice southern mamas have been trained to be ladies and haven't changed despite the changes around us. Sadly, DBRbm have shouted to the world that we are the meanest most emasculating women they've ever met. When I hear this, I am always puzzled about who they're talking about. The bad news is that the bad press is harming our IR options.
We need a PR makeover as bw. There's too much money being made marketing our alleged bad temperament.
Kara 2 said... "Thanks for answering me without resorting to 'ABW' syndrome. lol ;)"
ReplyDeletecaligirl94117 said... "Kara 2's comment above made me think about something. Kara 2 this is not directed at your reply, it's a brainstorm. Halima, I think we need a post about the Myth of the ABW and the damage it's doing to our image inside and outside our community."
Kara 2's comment is making me think of something too...
"Sadly, DBRbm have shouted to the world that we are the meanest most emasculating women they've ever met. When I hear this, I am always puzzled about who they're talking about."
Yes, hatefully (yet not surprisingly) they have. And here we have Kara 2, a supposed BW using that SAME stereotype promoted by DBR BM against BW "thanking" caligirl94117 for not "resorting to ABW syndrome".
SMH Things aren't adding up. I take that back. They ARE.
Halima, I think it would be WONDERFUL if you addressed this ABW stereotype.
caligirl94117 said...
ReplyDelete"Thanks for answering me without resorting to 'ABW' syndrome. lol ;)"
Kara 2's comment above made me think about something . . . Halima, I think we need a post about the Myth of the ABW and the damage it's doing to our image inside and outside our community . . . I've never been an Angry Black Woman.
I understand what you're saying caligirl, but really--did ANYONE respond to Kara2 like an "Angry Black Woman"? I'm not saying we can't work to counter that image; but we do need to keep in mind that the whole purpose of that label is to try and undermine opinions the person using it doesn't like, but can't logically attack. For people with such a motivation, they're just going to pull up whatever slur they think will work.
As Kara2 stated, she does not find white men attractive, and has concluded that "a lack of quality Black men is the motivating factor for actively pursuing white men, rather than a genuine attraction to them."
This despite the fact that almost all the women here who date IR have expressed a great deal of "genuine attraction" to white and other non-black men. However, if you do not wish to believe a fact is true, you will simply deny it.
Kara2 keeps repeating that she has no ulterior motive in asking her questions, and perhaps she even consciously believes that. But it's obvious that she thinks there is something "wrong" with a BW being with a WM, and the rather transparent purpose behind her questions is to figure out what that something "wrong" is. That's why the responses that unapologetically expressed an attraction to white men triggered her knee-jerk "ABW" response, even though there was nothing even vaguely "angry" about any of those responses--they were actually more pleasant then s/he probably deserved under the circumstances.
I think creative responses to "negative PR" are a great idea, but I also think it's important not to fall prey to juvenile manipulations. If you know who you are, how you carry yourself, and what your motivations are, you really have nothing left to prove.
"If you know who you are, how you carry yourself, and what your motivations are, you really have nothing left to prove."
ReplyDeleteAMEN.
but really--did ANYONE respond to Kara2 like an "Angry Black Woman"? I'm not saying we can't work to counter that image; but we do need to keep in mind that the whole purpose of that label is to try and undermine opinions the person using it doesn't like, but can't logically attack. For people with such a motivation, they're just going to pull up whatever slur they think will work.
ReplyDeleteWOW that's true! Who originally responded to Kara2 like an "Angry Black Woman"? I just scrolled back and reread some of the responses and can't find one instance of this behavior.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWOW that's true! Who originally responded to Kara2 like an "Angry Black Woman"? I just scrolled back and reread some of the responses and can't find one instance of this behavior.
No one did. She didn't like the responses she got, so she resorted to the typically DBR bag of tricks: any BW who isn't a mammy-mule is an "ABW," "bitter," "can't get no BM," blah, blah, blah. Sadly when people aren't happy, it's hard for them to see others happy.
Lol Lol! U women crack me up, haha.
ReplyDeleteYes the ABW syndrome..hmmm.
I actually think kara 2 was projecting this said syndrome unto us. Never mind, we see right through it all.
i am actually suprised kara 2 felt she was wel within her right to 'interrogate' us here in the manner she has. I think the fact that we have continued to enagage kara 2 actually speaks in our favour. i personally have been kicked out of websites and message boards for less confrontational behaviour.
Kara 2 your life is yours to live and love who you please, you dont need to explain yourself to us. B happy!
Caligirl I think that is an awesome idea - an article on the ABW stereotype!
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think that DBR bm need to get some manhood first before they shout to the world about anyone emasculating them. LOL
I do think it is (ABW) used to control women and keep them victims.
I have never been called that, but as I get older I see there is a need sometimes to really kick some butt when it comes to principles, standing up for yourself, and not allowing someone to hurt or take advantage of you.
I don't know any woman who just goes around on the offensive all the time.
But it has been necessary in certain cases to call on the very protective wild woman inside me to do just that- protect me.
Just a quick note:
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the best blogs I've ever read! You've hit home yet again girl! I can relate on so many levels. I always think to myself how was I able to find the light yet no one I know has? Thank you for writing this. I will continue to read.