I was noting the reactions especially of black women online.
First of course there was the denials that he said such. People however pointed to lyrics on a couple of his tracks that essentially say the same thing which he is accused of saying. Then there were the 'high self-esteemers', who proclaimed to have such a high self esteem as to be unaffected by the statements of a half wit. I like the spirit but I also recognize the 'I am unaffected' or 'I am not the one he speaks about', response can come from a point of hopelessness and from those who feel 'nothing can be done so best ignore', or a displaced reaction of frustration from those who want this whole thing to disappear and at al cost that they will be happy for the victim to disappear if it will sort out the situation. Indeed they are taking out the whole frustration on a safe target by making it an issue of 'sefl esteem'. Good self esteem doesnt happen in a vacuum. I am amused at how many black people are requesting nay demanding that black women have 'self esteem', and self love as if the so called black community has optimal conditions for this to develope. I guess it is an automatic thing which you just call to yourself from the four winds!
I guess my point is, surely one can admit there is a problem without having to mean their self esteem is shot!
The issue of black women’s general image taking a hit was also raised, and this is tha bit of the discussion that I was very interested in. I see we always keep coming round to the whole, ’black women need to organize round the protection of their image’ question. We seem to come round to it a couple of times each year. I think the last major incident was regarding John Mayer. I know I put up the post about some of the options available to black women. Some where ready to do something (although what that something was, was the issue), others said 'nah' focus on self.
Today I want to raise the issue of being able to admit a bad situation even if you have no answers.
Black women pay a personal cost for the overall negative image of black women, wether you are well positioned or have a high esteem or not. See I can admit that, even if I have no answers to the dilema at present. On an individual level, black women can do so much, and I am also aware that as the message of black women being empowered to be the best spreads, the culmulative effect of more and more black women living succesfully will roll back a great deal of the stigma that is currently attached to the black female image.
However and again I want to reiterate that we all (individually), pay a great price no matter how high our self-esteem and how unconnecetd you are to the toxic black community. I am sure a lot of black women living in part of Italy know what I mean, when I say that an impression created about those like you can severly impact your social movement. I am sure they are aware of this when they are approached by random men who mistaken them for prostitutes even when they have all sorts of social trappings that speak strongly against such a conclussion. If someone came uo with a smart idea to end their daily torment, I am sure so many would be so willing to all pay to lift the shadow that follows them all around.
When a negative impression is created around your demograhy, you have to put in twice as much effort to get anything others simply wave their hands to get, also so many opportunities for life improvement are being denied without you even knowing it, therefore it is important to be able to be invested in the idea of some general push back against the tarnishing of black women's image even if we dont know what it will be or if it can be.
I fear some black women are in a rush to shut down the conversations of a broader solution because they dont see how, but there might be someone out there who knows what to do, who you are not allowing turn their brains over the issue by shooting down any discussion out of your understandable frustration.
Contnd
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hello, Halima
ReplyDeletei am a long time reader of your blog. i'm a wm and i was wondering what i could do to help protect not only the image of bw but also the lives and dignity of bw.
i've always thought that if bm weren't going to step up to the plate and help defend bw, then wm should. or at least i would like to. you may think that as a wm this has nothing to do with me, and you may be right, but i still thing wrong is wrong.
hi Eric such an encouraging sentiment there!
ReplyDeleteI guess the first thing is pray for bw to get a clue lol!
I think on an individual level if you notice the anti black female dynamic coming to play, to do what you can to create an awareness that it is unacceptable in fact a littl shaming wont go amiss!
who knows, at some point in the future, there could be a general intitiative against the defamation that we decent folks can sign up to.
Halima,
ReplyDeleteyeah, i guess it's a process. i try to talk to almost everyone i know about these issues, many of whom are receptive to what i tell them. but often i just feel like there's more i could do, especially when i read about what's happening to black women and girls all over the world.
To Eric:
ReplyDeleteWrong is wrong, and tenets of fair play demand a response.
I am a WM as well, recently engaged to a BW. One of those "dark" BW that a lot of black guys seem to have it in for. I've been reading these BWE blogs for about a year now, ever since I starting dating my SO. I just read, and don't comment, because, after all, the intended audience is BW, not guys like you and me. I guess trying to actively participate in a blog like this on a regular basis would make me feel like a bit of an interloper, sort of an outsider, always chirping up with some annoying observation.
But your comment caught my eye, so back to my opening statement. Idealistic or not, I believe in the premise of fair play as it applies to life in general. I don't think anyone should get preferential treament, you need to earn your right to be treated with respect and deference; conversely, woe to anyone that tries to single someone out for bad treatment on flimsy stereotypes or broad assumptions about "their kind of people".
I have no interest in being a soldier for racial equality, manning picket lines, or, marching around with a sign. But, man, I sure don't tolerate anyone trying to diminish my fiance in any way. I am frank and candid in expressing my displeasure with anyone that tries to tear her down.
Here's the most recent example, which was a bit painful for both me and my friend:
I mentioned to my buddy (friends for 23 years now - I am 44) that my fiance needed to replace her old Honda, and that we were looking at new cars for her.
He said, just sort of offhandedly, "I guees she probably wants some blinged-out Lexus with huge rims on it, huh?" I just looked at him, and replied, "What the hell are you talking about? You mean, so she can drive around the 'hood, on the way to get her weave tightened up, you know, in anticipation of hangin' at the club tonight? Is that what you're saying?"
"Uh, no, man, I'm just saying, don't a lot of black women like that kind of thing?"
"Yeah, sure, a lot of them do. But mine doesn't. She doesn't have a weave, she doesn't live in the 'hood, she doesn't hang out at clubs, and the car she's interested in is a new VW Golf TDI (diesel), because she's very concerned about fuel economy and the environment. And it really pisses me off that you default to that kind of generalization when we're talking about the woman I love and am going to marry. Especially since you've met her and spoken to her many times, and you know what kind of person she is! This kind of crap makes me angry - I am not to going to have anyone, including you, defame or denigrate my woman, either explicitly or implicitly, and I don't care how long we've been friends, this can't happen again. You don't get a free pass on this."
Silence, and then both of us looking at each other kind of hard.
Then, he says, "OK, you were right to call me on that. I apologize."
"Don't worry about it, we're cool. Just be careful with that crap, OK?"
So, that's what I do. It's just one moment, and it only changes the perception of one person, but it's something. But it needs to be said, and, I want to say it. Because wrong is wrong, as you say.
Eric,
ReplyDeleteHow wonderful that you as a WM want to help. BW definitley need allies in WM b/c often times I think WM become apathetic to what BW go through. i can understand in some ways b/c BW are constantly blaming the WM for everything - even when its WW and BM who seem to take great comfort in keeping BW down.
Hopefully through these blogs we can come up with something! :)
You are absolutely right. Whether we like it or not when people hear, read or see the insane rantings or subtle innuendos of DBR BM on how BW women are *insert nonsense and hatred here* many give it credence.
ReplyDeleteI think the reason some people believe DBR nonsense is because they really don't know any better or don't want to take the heat of calling the DBR out. It never enters their minds that these damaged men's hatred of BW is unfounded and/or projected. Normal, sane people don't hate others (entire groups of others). This is what hate groups do.
Some don't want to face the fact that DBR BM are in the same class as other hate groups. Since so few denounce their rhetoric and actions (because the backlash is always nasty if you dare point out the obvious) as we do other hate groups, people think something along the lines of "So many BM wouldn't be saying such things about BW if it weren't true." What makes this so sad is that the above sentiment frequently comes from BW themselves who call any instance of calling a DBR out "BM Bashing."
One thing that progressive BW (and progressive people in general) must continue to do while we look for other solutions is speak with their wallets. If you are not speaking with your wallet you should start today! It is not always convenient to find an alternative once you decide not to finance an undeserving enterprise, but it is another and important aspect of your "voice".
Hi peter
ReplyDeleteI read your comment and it made me laugh but also sad.
its amazing how people can have such vitriol and distaste for bw who have done nothing to them personally. Yes part of it is fueled by the general disdain and regard being shown towards bw on all sides, it makes folk just feel uncharitable towards every and any bw.
Your comment also went to the heart of something important, what to do and how to manage frienships of people that show themselves intolerant.
Neecy Trust me you are not crazy, you sound like me about ten years ago trying to sort out my ideas and my foothold into what we now recognise as BWE message. well see where we are 10 years later!
ReplyDeleteJust nurture your passion, dont worry about the answers. I never saw any when i started, i dont even think there was blogger, nothing like facebook or twitter for sure. i just knew i had a passion to loosen bw from the lies about them not having any options, not being desirable, here to pull the cart behind everyone else. the fact is that i dont even think I had that many coherent analysis of the situation, that came in time as we have together developed the succint analysis of our situation, then I had only a strong feeling of the injustice of it all.
I put one foot in front and then something else showed up and then others came on to help the work and push it to places I would never have imagined.
Jeremiah 20 from verse seven has something you might find inetersting about this:
O Lord, you misled me,
and I allowed myself to be misled.
You are stronger than I am,
and you overpowered me.
Now I am mocked every day;
everyone laughs at me.
8When I speak, the words burst out.
“Violence and destruction!” I shout.
So these messages from the Lord
have made me a household joke.
9But if I say I’ll never mention the Lord
or speak in his name,
his word burns in my heart like a fire.
It’s like a fire in my bones!
I am worn out trying to hold it in!
I can’t do it!
CONTD
You may be called to push things in new directions.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was writing the book SIWTDAWG, many people told me what i should be writing. They wanted me to write the straight forward, 'you can date who you like'. i knew that for bw it was much more complex issue than that, but no one was even half inetersted, even the bw editors insitied that i just make it a simple interview of bw in IR.
The whole protecting of bm and their image and the adopting of a more placatory attitude and imploring them to do right by bw was in full sway. of course we now understand bw enabling and bm protectionism better, then you can imagine, i thought i was in the wrong! but even as I rewrote the manuscript according to 'their' wishes, i knew it wasnt what i really wanted to say. Thus I rewrote the manuscript no less than 20 xs and God knows how many editors I had!
Feel free to tune out us old heads and tune into what your spirit is telling you.
LMH you are hinting at somethign very important (the reason why i like these discussions to be had because it throws up so many clues and ideas).
ReplyDeleteIt is the construction of the black man's perspective as always a pertinent and relevant part of black discourse, in mainstream mind that gives his words such power.
There is no distinction between foolish talk from bm and the rare sensible ones. indeed bw response to all is to give it ardent attention and the necessary 'amens' to maintain the impression that profound wisdom is being dropped. it has been duly noted.
indeed if everyone knew that 'hey these ones are the fools that we have been warned about', it would matter little what fool says.
bw have spent a lot of time and effort trying to keep bm pertinent and relevant in general discourse despite the good bulk of them chatting from pure selfishness and self promotion and transgressing the most basic requirment of speaking for the general good and caring for others beyond just themselves.
someone needs to take a megaphone and start anouncing that the bulk of what bm are saying is self serving and irrelevant. Get on the airwaves and admit that actually, we were trying to make them seem sensible but we cant hide it anymore, we want to apologise for trying to trick everybody into thinking what was being said by these bm was sense, that they are free to themselves say what is in their hearts about these men's activities and it isnt racism to admit it!
Pete,
ReplyDeletea lot of what you said makes perfect sense to me. i have no real interest in becoming a 'warrior for race' or however you want to word it. i want to help individuals rather than a whole collective i guess. that's the best way to go about it, i think. and you illustrated that very well.
i can also relate to what you said about not feeling...like it'd be appropriate (for lack of a better word) to post on blogs specifically meant for bw. i've been 'into this' for years now, and when i discovered these blogs (Evia's was the first) i felt overjoyed because i could get insight into things i didn't have a lot of experiences with because i have no clue what it's like to be a bw and reading these blogs gave me knowledge to do what i wanted to (i.e. helping people)
and like you said, the best thing we can do right now, i guess, is just to fight ignorance with knowledge. when someone we know says or does something stupid, just let them know it's not right. be tough if you have to be.
Just an addendum:
ReplyDeleteHalima, your post header "Why the defaming of the black woman affects you" touches on a subject that is admittedly of little or no importance to most white men.
But it is of considerable importance to me, since my SO is a black woman. She is me. I am her. This situation will be even more pronounced when we we are married. We will be a single entity in many ways. Obviously, what affects her will affect me. What she does in the future will be a reflection on me and vice-versa. An insult to her is an insult against me.
I can't control or even affect what other people think about American black women in the aggregate. That mass of black women are going to keep doing the things they do, and I can't stop that. But whether through conversational moments of opportunity or the quiet example of how we live and thrive in the larger social construct, together, my fiance and I can impress upon people that there are plenty of smart, beautiful, demure, enchanting, wonderful black women in this world.
I'm loving the comments from the WM in relationships with BW. Please feel to stop by my blog and comment if the subject moves you to your heart's content!!
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking of Khadija's post from Oct about how individual BW who are partnered with the right WM "aplah/dominant" will help temper a lot of the BW bashing currently the default position.
She further explained her position on that in a comment to my Wed post about using common sense when it comes to men as well. I hope I'm not hijacking the thread Halima but it all ties together.
I submitted this comment yesterday in response to Halima's comment, but I seem to be having some trouble getting Google Blogger to take my comments. So, my apologies that this seems out of chronological order.
ReplyDeleteHalima said:
"its amazing how people can have such vitriol and distaste for bw who have done nothing to them personally. Yes part of it is fueled by the general disdain and regard being shown towards bw on all sides, it makes folk just feel uncharitable towards every and any bw."
I say: I just want to be clear that my friend does not have vitriol or distaste for my fiance, or, for black women in general. If he did, we wouldn't be friends. In fact, he is crazy about my fiance, and she about him. Not only that, but before this incident, he was working up the nerve to ask one of her friends out on a date, and I think that is still on tap.
So I just want to be clear about that. The problem here is that my friend, just like everyone else, cannot help but be affected by the barrage of negative words and images associated with American black women, and he just said something stupid, without thinking about it, and I know he feels badly about it.
Truuth be told, in his instance, it's not just the media and popular culture, he is surrounded by people saying negative things about black women because he is an executive with one of the professional sports leagues (no, not the NHL, lol), and so he spends a lot of work time and off-work time with a lot of black guys who also work there as executives. Yeah, he is besieged by anti-BW sentiment.
He just said something stupid off the cuff, it happens and we're cool on that. I've known him for a long, long time and I know what kind of person he is.
Good for you Eric.
ReplyDeleteYou are right not believing in the negative talk from bm about bw. What a wussy thing to do to women.
Sometimes one has to call a person out on their trash talk.
Oh, really? Can you prove that? I have date various bw and I have had a great time.
Some bm are very surprised to learn that some of their wm co-workers date/marry bw.
lois
Pete,
ReplyDeleteYour rebuffing of your friend was correct. I too do not club hop and bling. It is a good thing that you nipped whatever negative feelings he has about your intended. The nerve of him to insult you in your face. If he is single I bet there are bw he wished he had the courage to ask out on a date. He could be envious and want to break you to apart.
lois
To Pete,
ReplyDeleteI just read your last comment
about the negative sterotyping not just in the media but also by bm.
Good grief your friend works with bm exectives and ballers, no wonder your friend has the attitude he has. Thankfully he has a good friend like you to counter those negative images and ideas.
LOL, I do not think bw are looking for wm to become some type of warrior for race relations, unless that is what they wish to do. However, you did well to set your friend straight.
I think bwe bloggers welcomes all other race men who have good intentions to comment.
lois
Eric,pete.i'm loveing you comments about blackwomen's im really glad that this is coming from two whitemens.@pete as far as those dbr bm gose tell your friend to stay way from guys like them cuz they toxic dangerous and full of hate,hate for whitemens,blackwomen so u may wanna let you bubby know about dbr bm's...@eric you can help bw in many ways one way is to be a great allies of bwa)2 show some support to bw and things that have bw in positive image from like book's,movie's,t.v. show's etc,etc.)3 knock down all lie's about bw and put the word out there about bw bwe work and to all wm's out there bm's are not your friend they're foe's of bw,wm so watch your back cuz just like their doing this s**t to bw. (which they dont want bw with wm's) but anyway's just like there doing to bw they'll do it to you too so stay far way from any bm thats a dbr men cuz its not just bw that their after.or that hate its u also be very carefull...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!oh sorry for any typo's, lol.
ReplyDelete--- @Pete's 3:04 comment
ReplyDeleteWhich only PROVES that it's the projection of the DISEASED and DAMAGED thinking of the wholly inadequate BLACK MALE that IS at play here.
They see black women as their competition.
They do NOT want white males to consider us for mates.
They see it happening ANYWAY and are working overtime at poisoning the well.
Yes, there are exceptions, blah, blah blah...but WE know what time it is!!
I'd take a guess at the number of these males who have abandoned black children and/or mutliple sex partners with these same women they hold with such contempt!!
See the REAL ENEMY by THEIR DEEDS.
on a side note, i've been trying to research info on the relationship and interactions between bw and wm throughout history. if anyone has any info that'd be great.
ReplyDeletewell Eric even though I should know by now, it is still unnerving to see how bm intentionally sabotage and savage bw, the women who are the only ones to defend them to the wall when you think of it. and to think the vast number of bw out there still think 'they have a 'brother' in bm'. fancy that!
ReplyDeleteThe comeuponce is coming for bm.
To all
the other thing i wanted to point out in general is how it is that it is only bw who never act according to a plan of self aggrandizenment. Every body else seems to have in motion, some plan for their advancement and to capitalize in a situation. everyone else knows they have to be astute and to wheel and deal because a power game is in play wether they like it or not. They are pretty clear how to shore up their situation. not bw though from what i can see. they will walk right into every trap and sterotype prepared for them.
"well Eric even though I should know by now, it is still unnerving to see how bm intentionally sabotage and savage bw, the women who are the only ones to defend them to the wall when you think of it. and to think the vast number of bw out there still think 'they have a 'brother' in bm'. fancy that!"
ReplyDeleteyou are right, Halima. i especially get disheartened when i read about what's going on in places like Haiti and Africa with regards to the mass rapes of black women and girls. if it were up to me i'd send some type of armed forces to protect them.
There are two sayings I keep in mind when it comes to this situation of the BM collective and their general negative and negligent behavior towards BW.
ReplyDelete1) Actions speak louder than words
2) Time will tells all things
My personal observation is that the gravy train BM have been riding on by bashing BW is slowing coming to an end. To paraphase a biblical sentence there is a saying that goes something like this, "By their friuts you shall know them."
BM have used the so call failings of BW as the reason why they're abandoning their families/communities. However, the thing is time is also showing us that women from other groups are not fareing any better.
People are beginning to notice this trend. BM are taking their dysfunction to women in other groups and creating havoc for them.
Now are their special groups of WM who try to protect a very small subset of BM? Yes, as long as the feel they continue to make money from them. However, even these groups tolerance are lessening for antics of these DBR BM.
BM as a collective don't understand that if you don't take care of your home turf and leave it in disarry, other people are not going to respect you.
NijaG
"Now are their special groups of WM who try to protect a very small subset of BM?"
ReplyDeleteyes, wm liberals, who hate the fact that they're white and male. at least that's the feeling i get.
for some reason, to many liberals, the bc = bm. just an observation of mine.
This post is so very timely. I too appreciate hearing a different demographic speaking on the issue. For the last year and a half of my college career, I made it a point to always reiterate to the young black women on my campus to consider other options of men on campus, and to take care of ourselves and take pride in our beauty. Of the very few who actually listened to what I was saying and didn't write me off as a "crazy" one, they are now happily coupled up with a non-bm. The naysayers are still...doing it on their own and cheesing hard for the tall dark skinned black man that routinely looks them over for anything light, white, or simply non-black. Fast forward to life after college and I have the pleasure of rooming with a powerful young woman who I feel will go very far in life. However, she seems to still be on the "black community" tip and the "there's just something about the brothers" bandwagon. Though she faintly may give a nod to a non-bm cutie, it is nothing compared to what she will do with a bm. What is more, she thinks I would make a great wife to a "brother." If only she knew that my attention to "brothers" took a hike and isn't likely to return since Sophomore year of college lol. I’m pretty sure the only thing I have in common with the bm now is an appreciation for the non-black opposite sex lol. I’m rambling so I will get to the point,
ReplyDeleteImage is so very important. Without control of your image, you are truly disadvantaged when someone comes along with more power than yourself and defames it. I am a firm believer that the majority of black women, especially those living in the United States will come to the conclusion that we who are in support of BWE are all crazy. I have seen it play itself out with young college educated women that worked their way into one of the most prestigious Universities in the country. However, of the few who are unpartnered with non-bm, who will hear the message and see the truth and wisdom of BWE they will start or continue to put their best foot forward. Of the greatest impact is the partnered bw with non-bm partners. In fact, those who are partnered with white men hold a significant position. Whether their relationships or marriages last, providing they are quality bw, those men’s experiences with these women will resonate. What these non-bm choose to do when they see or here defamation of black women as a group will be determined by how invested they allow themselves to be with that bw they partnered.
on a side note, White male liberals truly baffle me with their thoughts on racial topics. Totally bm centered...
I agree with both Eric and NijaG on white male liberals coddling black men. But there is also something far more sinister at play with this bm protectionism.
ReplyDeleteAs NijaG stated, the jig is just about up for bm, with their feeding off of bw. These black males are going to find new targets for their self-loathing. It is going to get worse for other groups as more bw jump ship to better waters. Liberal whites (male and female), and other non-black groups, including other blacks who are removed from such dysfunctional black culture, didn't have to worry about bm terrorizing them on a daily and insidious basis. That terror was mostly reserved for bw and children. Take the bw whipping dog out the equation, who do you think those black men that are dbr are going to target next?
Some non-black folks are running scared because they know they're most likely going to be in the line of fire of dbr bm's rage as more bw take themselves out of harm's way and embrace a life without the masochism they have shouldered for so long.
DBR bm are now going to become a much larger problem, and this is frightening because they are already a drain on society's resources. The narrative for AA bm collective is going to meet with a terrible end, as other BWE bloggers have already pointed out. Their pathology will inevitably be their collective undoing. It's already unfolding.
I'm really not surprised by such articles from anti-bw white liberals. They don't want these bm they so passionately defend coming near them or their family. They want bw to continue to commit spiritual suicide in order to maintain their comfort zone.
A comeuppance is indeed coming, Halima.
Jazine
Eric, regarding your interest in history, there are plenty of books from the context of Southern History and African American women's history. Here are a few:
ReplyDeleteDavid Barry Gaspar and Darlene Clark Hine, More than Chattel: Black Women and Slavery in the Americas; Darlene Clark Hine, Wilma King and Linda Reed, We Specialize in the Wholly Impossible: A Reader in Black Women's History; Bernie D. Jones, Fathers of Conscience: Mixed Race Inheritance in the Antebellum South, and the one with the most memorable title, Kathleen M. Brown, Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia.
A lot of this is tied up with whites negotiating among themselves, the racial order of slavery and its aftermath--a different racial dynamic than what we have now. Those books explain that.
Today, the same thing is at play, white liberals looking at the black community and negotiating among themselves (and especially with black men) the racial dynamic--protection for black men and disparagement of black women, which limits their options and pushes them to accept "less than" treatment at the hands of black men.
I agree with Jazine, it is about whites making sure that black women are the ones to deal with the "problem of the black man." They sure don't want to do it!
PioneerValleyWoman,
ReplyDeletethanks for all the reading recommendations! i'm a history buff and the topic interests me greatly. i'll definitely have to check them all out.
all this talk about white male liberals feeling the need to protect black men reminds me of this one time i was debating a wm who happened to be a staunch liberal. i told in, that in my opinion, that racism and/or violence from whites wasn't the biggest threat to bw, but it was violence from bm in their own communities.
ReplyDeleteneedless to say he didn't agree. i then told him that it wasn't racist whites who are infecting bw with AIDS virus at alarming rates. it also isn't racist whites who are gang raping bw, not only in sub-Saharan Africa, but here in the U.S. as well. i told him that 99% of all these atrocoties are caused by what are called DBRbm.
well guess what? he told me that the statistics i presented him were (i'm paraphrasing) lies from a 'racist hierarchy' designed by white people (i.e. wm) to keep black people (i.e. bm) 'down'. the funniest part of all this was the guy was your typical limousine liberal from a well to do background. i'd be surprised if he's even talked to a bw in these situations.
sorry to talk about dark subject matter like this, but i needed to get that out.
Blogger Eric said...
ReplyDeletePioneerValleyWoman,
thanks for all the reading recommendations! i'm a history buff and the topic interests me greatly. i'll definitely have to check them all out.
My reply:
You're welcome; I teach history, and women's history is one of my fields of interest.
Hey Miss Neecy,
ReplyDeleteDon't run away! Sistahs need you. I think that the maxim "Think globally, act locally" applies here. Reaching out to every black woman you meet, and reinforcing our dignity is a start. I think telling black men that step you disrespectfully that is not acceptable is another, working with black girls (teens) as a Big Sister, and volunteer or donate to organization already doing the good work like Black Girls Rock. The individual can move mountains!
PioneerValleyWoman said: Fathers of Conscience: Mixed Race Inheritance in the Antebellum South,
ReplyDelete--I'm reading that right now. Fascinating stuff.
Just wanted to correct some assumptions on my previous post.
ReplyDeleteWhen I said subset of WM, it really had nothing to do with political affiliation. It had more to do with economic/financial systems. After all, corporations (domestic, multi, int'l) really have no political bias. It all comes down to "show me the money." In certain industries BM do bring in a lot of money. So of course, these investors have quiet a bit of interest in protecting their investment.
Frankly, I don't believe that WM as a collective have any obligation towards BW in general. I also don't think there is some thought out plot to deliberately discredit BW by these "subset" of WM who seem like they are protecting BM.
Men in general just don't concern themselves with women outside their group because it's generally considered the job of the men from those various group to protect their own women.
So unless a man marries a woman from outside his group and thereby forms some ties to her group/community, most men really have no vested interest and are not thinking in any deep way about what's happening to women outside their group.
NijaG
I'll try to make this as brief as possible. I'm white and married to a black woman and we were in Macy's when this happened about six months ago.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I were just sort of wandering around, first together, then she went over to look at something else and I was alone for about 10 minutes. Then she came back to where I was, all upset. She said some black guy came and stood next to her, and then he leaned over to her and said something about "you got some fine stuff", and she gave him a look and moved away, and
he came right after her, saying "C'mon, baby, give a nigger a chance at least. Lemme talk to you." She complained to the security guard who was a
young black guy, and he told her, "Well, you are looking fine". Now, really pissed off, she told him she was going to get her husband and be right back,
and he said, "What? I know that's not the first time you had a brother roll up on you like that. He gone now, just chill."
She finds me, tells me what happened, and I go back to the security guard with her behind me. I go over with him what she told me, he denies he said
either of those two things, and then asked me who am I going to believe, her or him. I said this is my wife (he looks surprised, even though my wife told him she was getting her husband) and I tell him I believe her completely, I tell him I think he's applying a different level of enforcement of the rules because she is black and both men (him and the customer) that are bothering her are black, so suddenly there are no rules,
she's fair game for anything a "brother" wants to say to her. I told him that if a white woman complained to him about some guy following here around and making sexual remarks to her, he would've done something about it. I tell him further that he's really pissed me off now, and he is going to pay for being a jerk and a pig to my wife, whether that is me kicking his ass
right there or losing his job, or both. So then some manager (white guy) comes over, asks me what's going on, I calm down a little and I tell him while the security guard is scowling and muttering that it's all a lie, then
that bitch has set him up and is just using her white husband to get him into trouble.
I'm in a suit, my wife is dressed very nicely (she came down to my office to meet me for lunch and shopping), we seem like we're telling the truth, and the manager makes his decision, telling the security guard to come with him to his office so he can talk to him. The manager tells one of the clerks to
get my name and contact information so he can follow up with me later. Two days later, I get a call from the manager, saying they asked the security
company to terminate the security guard, which they did, he apologized for what happened to my wife, and said he was sending us some Macys gift certificates. Which he did, with a nice letter, apologizing again, and the
gift certificates were two $100 gift cards.
That's my story. I'm still kind of angry about it, but my wife says I just need to let it go, that we won that round, but I'm still simmering. I don't
give a damn what the "cultural standards" are among black people for behavior towards black women, there is going to be hell to pay if someone treats my wife like that.
"Men in general just don't concern themselves with women outside their group"
ReplyDeletethat's why we as bw are so so screwed, we're stuck with weak argumentative morons!!!! the only way to cut the tie is to move on ie run and not look back!!
Hooray for Pete and Eric! That is an example of a MAN--a protector, whether through words, or if it comes down to it, action. Back in the day they called this chivalry, and you two have convinced me that it is not dead.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you mentioned "the rapper" incident, because I was rather dismayed by responses like, "what do I care what he thinks?" My answer to this is that you may not care what THE GREMLIN thinks of you, but young, impressionable black girls with no power to "empower" themselves will, that is, if they know no other way.
This IS our problem, because we have a responsibility as sisters in this movement to be concerned with the next generation of black girls (e.g. the hotmess in Memphis with the 90 highschool girls preggo). These are children who are tethered to whatever environment they were born in. I can't in good conscience leave them behind.
So yes, let's stop shutting down the conversation and deal with it. I don't have an answer, but someone else might.
@ Joseph F,
ReplyDeleteLoved the way you and your wife handled that incident. That security guard needed to lose his job. He chose to protect a DBR BM over protecting an innocent BW. Also, to add insult to injury, he also participated by dismissing her concerns and making comments towards her.
That incident is basically the mini version of what's being played out on a macro level in the black community.
Too many BW experience such incidents on a frequent basis and many don't think they have any options but to deal with it. Even worse, some think it's normal and may not consider it a big deal.
I think more BW need to start reporting such incidences no matter how small it might be. People learn when there are consequences to their behavior.
If that security guard gets another job and something similar happens, he's reaction might be different even if it's just so that he can avoid the consequences of being fired again.
NijaG
" I told him that if a white woman complained to him about some guy following here around and making sexual remarks to her, he would've done something about it."
ReplyDeleteJoseph F., it would never get to that point because no DBR would be foolish enough to say that sh#t to a white woman wearing a wedding ring in Macy's and then proceed to follow her when she rebuffed him. He would be just asking for trouble!
It's only when it's a BW that these DBR males then feel that they have carte blanche, that they can be as crude and sexually aggressive as they want.
CeeCee
Joseph F. -
ReplyDeleteOne more thing, props to you for the way you handled that situation. Your wife is lucky to have someone like you watching out for her.
These are vivid examples of how the constant devaluing and defaming of BW affects all of us.
ReplyDeletePete's friend wouldn't have said what he said if he hadn't heard it or seen it somewhere else. White men that don't actually know any black women themselves develop their perception of black women from what they're told by other men (black men), or what they hear (hip-hop or rap, again though black men), or what they see (rap videos, movies, the news media, etc.) Even though he had met Pet's fiance, the amount of negative stimuli about black women overwhelmed his personal experience with her.
Joseph's wife, unfortunately, was tarred (no bad pun intended) with the same brush as DBR-influenced women before she even walked into that store, and so it was assumed by both the first guy that harrassed her and by the security guard that she would just put up with that kind of behavior. Because she's black, and that's just what BW have to deal with every day. That's what we deserve because we're black, right? Her husband corrected that assumption in this instance, but as soon as she walked out on to the sidewalk the next day, it just started all over again, with people (black, white, asian, etc.) making unkind assumptions about what kind of person she is because they can see she's a black woman.
You know, I have to agree with NijaG, men don't concern themselves with women outside "their" group, which to me means we need to join a group that is going to look out for us and protect our image and our bodies.
LMH, Neecy, Faith, etc. all make good points; no one is looking out for BW as a group. BW as a group have shown an almost suicidal tendency to side with BM on everything, and this while BM are slowly draining the lifeblood out of black women. It's no wonder the rest of the world has decided to let BW gradually kill themselves and not get involved.
I think the only way this will change is more black women individually choosing non-BM mates who will then cherish and protect their image and physical well-being on an individual basis, until finally, there will be so many individual black women that have doen this that it will then be a large group. Then the collective image will start to turn around.
Yup, just like those Asian women turned their image around, I know everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about here.
“it would never get to that point because no DBR would be foolish enough to say that sh#t to a white woman wearing a wedding ring in Macy's and then proceed to follow her when she rebuffed him. He would be just asking for trouble!”
ReplyDeleteAnd that’s why bm annoy me so much. They are so so dumb that they will go out of their way to show respect and care to people outside their group while leaving the worst for their own group. Who does that??? I know when I was younger and would experience street harassment; I didn’t know what to do. It would happen in broad daylight but no one would ever say anything in my defense. It was like it was okay to get completely cursed out and disrespected for not replying to someone’s cat calls.
A few months ago, 4 guys started cursing at my friend and I for not responding to them. Since we were on campus, I called campus police. I think that is what I’ll do from now on, just call the police. I’m tired to dealing with raging idiots.
PREACH, CeeCee!
ReplyDeleteBlack men feel no constraints whatsover about saying the most vile things to black women, black teenage girls, and yes, even black pre-teen girls. Yes, I've seen it.
And then they curse you out in the most foul way when you reject their crude degenerate advances!
They would never do that with other-race women. There will be painful consequences for the brother in that instance. But it's always open season on BW.
Patricia
Hey Halima..excellent posting! I for one think we do start with self then move outward to help others. There's probably not one set answer to that question but in some way we have to move forward. The reason I like to say start with the woman in the mirror is to clear anything that can hinder our abilities to see and discern out our problems and move toward a solution or many solutions. This thing is very complex..and I bet this image thing is more of an onion with several layers.
ReplyDelete@Eric...try writing a story or screenplay(Indi film?). Support movies that bring positive imagery of BW. That is a start.
Truuth be told, in his instance, it's not just the media and popular culture, he is surrounded by people saying negative things about black women because he is an executive with one of the professional sports leagues (no, not the NHL, lol), and so he spends a lot of work time and off-work time with a lot of black guys who also work there as executives. Yeah, he is besieged by anti-BW sentiment.
ReplyDeleteYou know this is interesting and I was afraid that this is what it was...I think it should start clicking in some of these WM head's that many of these same BM also lay with their sisters and nieces!
Or wanna lay with them.
A lesson needs to be taught also about how many BM love to break down a BW's image. To keep WM away. Not to focus on BM but to understand the dynamic--at least on a basic level and recognize what is happening.
BM wouldn't make such comments *IF* it did not work on WM minds. It worked for a while but I think the spell is just now starting to break... great video to make....Hmmmmmmmmm. (Also evidently this *spell* did not work on all WM!!!! just thought I make a note of it.)
Halima...if you don't mind can I mention your blog in my next video? I'll put up a link for it too. :o)
ReplyDeleteJoseph F and the other WM...this is my most recent video...I think it was on time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wif7a9rgi0c
ReplyDelete"I think the only way this will change is more black women individually choosing non-BM mates who will then cherish and protect their image and physical well-being on an individual basis, until finally, there will be so many individual black women that have doen this that it will then be a large group. Then the collective image will start to turn around."
ReplyDeletethis is the best way to go about real change. instead of trying to change the minds of a collective group, it's better to go about it on an individual basis. slowly but surely, the chains will start to move up.
I like the idea of starting a media movement. I believe a way to develop a positive image would help, I believe the best way would be to start online. Also, you could fund it with advertising. There are many BW indie companies that make products directed only to BW and natural products.
ReplyDeleteTo Joseph, Good for you and that is what a good husband does, protects his wife.
ReplyDeleteDeb
@Joseph F, your story exemplifies the reason why I will only date white men. You elevate and protect what you love!!! It is a cultural norm among your men. It is practically unheard of in the black diaspora!! I have also noticed in my travels that in countries where white men freely date black women, black males wanting to date black women have to step up their game, and even then they often fail to make the grade. As more and more non black men OPENLY cherish and revere black women, our carte blanche will also increase!!
ReplyDeleteNeecy
ReplyDeleteI just finished reading your last comment now lol! hit me up on email and lets have a chat!
(SIGH)
ReplyDeleteI agree, Halima, this overall negative perception of BW affects all of us in a million ways, some of which we individually will never be aware of, because the effect will not be a reaction that is noted and acknowledged, but instead will be what business people refer to as "opportunity cost", that is, an opportunity that would have presented itself under optimal conditions, but instead is never offered.
I don't have an answer, either.
I'll tell you one thing though. That comment by Joseph F made my head hurt. One DBRBM looking out for another, and let's just forget about the BW's rights and feelings. SMDH.
I agree with this post completely. And I've noticed lately that whenthere's a commercial featuring all races, the ONE black woman is always fat. Not just big, but very big. The latest Orbit gum commercial for example. I've seen this play out way too many times.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I hate to say it, the chances of most black women deciding to adopt the point of view of the typical reader of this BWE blog (and other BWE blogs) is very slim to none.
ReplyDeleteLet's not kid ourselves, 95% of our sisters will NOT be joining us on our journey to a good life. With this in mind, it is useless to talk about improving the image of black women in the aggregate. The realistic goal is to hope that people will be acutely aware that there are some black women that are different (in a good way) at some point in the near future.
We are a long way from even this modest goal right now.
Kudos to Joseph F for protecting his wife. She's not "lucky" she CHOSE WELL. Unlike Sunda Coonquist. http://actsoffaithblog.com/?p=639 I know the nuances are being applied automatically by most but let it be stated clearly that this is about caliber, not race. Every WM is not a good mate for a BW. Also, it is the unexamined and excused indoctrination of BW that has to be continually evaluated and dismantled. The protection of BW may not be extended to the entire collective worldwide but it can be applied to core smaller groups of individual women who have higher-quality partners that do. The continued protectionism of BM by non-blacks with an agenda at play (letting BW still bear the brunt of the DBR mess) needs to be addressed as well.
ReplyDeleteI believe that by marring well and NETWORKING and Making powerful allies, it would be easier to stop the negative BW defamation and BM protectionism. BM protectionism is already ending, (the amount of BM in jail).
ReplyDeleteWhen more positive BW come up I think people will create two camps "good" and "bad". We can help with this by doing this on an individual level.
What Joseph F described was just the story of my life, THE STORY OF MY LIFE back when I lived in the US especially I'm still sad to say. Because as DBR and as underclass as things have sadly gotten in what used to be especially 'working'-class British society, the black dudes on the street in London 95+ % of the time don't get on top of you; it's hard for even ME to believe but for some reason that part hasn't changed for the worse.
ReplyDeleteBut I'm glad that Joseph F compelled to tell his story and I can see it playing out in my head that Joseph was telling the whole truth because I have experienced it enough times way back in the day! One of the worst times is when I was in a Diesel shop in downtown NYC and it seemed like they hired all the black dudes, including the security guard at the door, from the jail or from juvenile hall at least! They had no manners at all but you all know the drill....
And I'm glad the guard in Joseph's story got fired, when you work in a shop all you have to do is amke sure the customer gets served well, because that's how the owner's pockets get lined. You don't like it? Then find another job especially when it's not your shop.
I've never seen such a set of males so disrespectful to the set of women of their own kind, and I hope in the next lifetime that I won't have to see it or deal with it like that ever again. Nowhere, especially in the western world should things be happening so badly, because some black people like to bring up things in the more backwards, misogynistic eastern countries and use it as an excuse when that's not where THEY'RE living.
But this is what you get when black people don't call the cops on criminal and criminally-inclined black people who don't love you or respect you, they only look a lot like you, which means nothing, and it's been long past the time for black women especially to get that through their thick heads.
I remeber when Von who has a blog came on to Faith's blog and said she didn't like the way a lot of BWE blogs made it sound like WM were sainted as if they've never put a foot wrong. And I was like 'What?'. Hello? Slavery? Hitler? Jim Crow?
Excuses. Excuses. Look white people, especially the white women KNOW that they can't trust every white man that they see around them even when they're surrounded by all white people. But THEY CALL THE COPS and even take the extra steps to form groups together to improve their neighborhoods and even to get through to their state government or beyond to pass laws or change laws. Feminists did this too. I mean the whole cable channel Lifetime is built on TV movies of some white murderer or rapist attacking white women that can't be trusted and therefore must be stopped! They get the other whites that look like them but certainly don't respect them, think like them, nor act like them under control and THAT'S a major difference right now between blacks and whites, and it's been like that for a while.
This is why a black poor neighborhood isn't just that, it's also a black poor and DEPRAVED neighborhood just because they don't want to call the police when they see, hear, or know something. Oh no they want to wait till they get up to their eyeballs in gang members, drug dealers, rapists, pedophiles, and juvenile hall teens when they're scared they're gonna be watched going into their local police precinct. And then they have the audacity to open up a paper, or watch the news and say 'What the heck is wrong with these (black) kids today?' Whatever. Get out of Sodom; it's been said PLENTY of times now my dears!
And oh yeah see this audacity below?:
ReplyDeleteJoseph F:
She finds me, tells me what happened, and I go back to the security guard with her behind me. I go over with him what she told me, he denies he said
either of those two things, and then asked me who am I going to believe, her or him.
Who are you going to believe her or him? They're face-ty you see. Proof that DBR BM don't compete with men, but with the women of their own kind. They don't want BW to have dignity, respect, and they truly believe that the whole world loves them and will take up for them and they are more than willing to sacrificae a BW for it. And it's been like this for decades because I have seen it and heard it. It's high time that BW catch a clue and stop looking back at this abomination. Salt is not a good look!
Yes Nisha as even Khadija has said loads of times change your image in the same quiet way that Asian women have done because decades ago they used to have that 'Full Metal Jacket' image! Which was a joke and quite whorish. Watch the movie.
ReplyDeleteWhen more positive BW come up I think people will create two camps "good" and "bad". We can help with this by doing this on an individual level." 2:18 AM
ReplyDeleteCarefully how you separate bw.
Just a thought.
Im happy because this is the first time I am commenting on this board keep up the good work and I love it here. We young black women are listening don't discourage yourself because you show us light us who want to listen.
ReplyDeleteWell Im young 22 years old my boyfried is 24 we've been together for 2 years now his white of course. while we were shopping in the mall , I left him going to use restroom while he was checking for items and a young black male around my age or older a little bite followed me. apparently he was following us the whole time but when i am around the love my life I don't give a flying rats as us of dirty looks especially in the mall. well getting out ladies restroom he stopped me and asked if I was with the white guy Im with and I asked if I know him and he told me right way"I don't understand what a fine ass sister like you is doing with a dorky white boy, u should get with a brotha like me". Well I don't know what come into me even I know what he meant as brotha I responded with a calm attitude: Dude that's just gross no one sleep with brotha that's just an inceste" and worked away. He took it as an insulta and followed me cursing me how I was not too good for him anyway and Im ugly black bitch,that and other profanity I am embarrased to write it on board. My boyfriend saw it and told him if he cursed me one more time he's going to kick his ass in front of everybody. He is a (martial art black belt).Luckly I had a lot of whitness a white male security who witnessed from far and came right away and it turns out he knows my boyfriend and heard a lot about me. He stooped the guy and told him his gonna arrest his ass next time, and he accompanied him outside the mall and told him to never show his face there if he is smart enough. He cursed me and say that I teamed up with whitemen for putting him down, That Im nothing more than a sellout that Im not defending him even though he was harrasing me right away the security and my boyfriend faced him he wanted a protection from a sista
he was abusing.He called me a snitch, that that's how I suppose to treat a brotha funny thing how these DBR black male think the world and black women owe them something because they are black. Im happy that I was with a man who cares to protect me. If I wa going to be alone that was going to be another story.
@ Anonymous 3:26PM
ReplyDeleteIf I wa going to be alone that was going to be another story.
...................................
It's amazing isn't it? The sense of entitlement many of these BM think they have over BW they don't know. Their sense of self/ego is so fragile that any sense of rejection seems to send them into a rage. This is especially true when it comes to perceived competition with other races/groups of men.
I can bet a million dollars that if you hadn't been with your white boyfriend, he probably wouldn't even have tried to talk to you. The whole incident wasn't even about you. If you had reciprocated any form of interest towards him, then he would have gotten the EGO BOOST he needed.
There are many BM who like to console themselves with the belief that a BW dating IR is mainly doing so because she couldn't get the type of BM she wanted. That if the right BM came along she would leave the WM she is with.
I'm sure there are lots of BW who can attest to the phenom of being generally ignored by BM at mixed social events, then all of sudden after seeing the BW comfortably flirting and mixing around with other races of men, these BM start trying to interact with them.
NijaG
NijaG you are correct with your last comment. They're so transparent and that kind of thing happens alot.
ReplyDeleteReading this post has reminded me of what Khadijah has often said: When Black women partner with Alpha males ( in this case White men), most of our collective problems will dissappear. These men will not allow their women to be disrespected or abused in any way. They will do the fighting for us, much in the same way that White womens' image is protected.
ReplyDeleteSeeing the comments from Eric, Peter and Joseph about how they defend their women gives further credence to what Khadijah is saying.
RE: Joseph F.'s comment -
ReplyDeleteOne, I agree with these other sisters said, that is, it never would have gotten to the point where his wife had to complain to the no-account security guard, because the chances of that DBR BM saying something like that to a well-dressed WW with a wedding riing on her finger are extremely low. The chances that the DBR BM would then FOLLOW her after she warned him off are even lower, almost non-existent.
Two, as juvenile as this may seem, omg, I wish I could've seen that! I would have been cheering them on when her husband confronted the security guard, and then when the security lied about what he said and the husband gave him his dressing-down. I hope some other BW got to see it, if nothing else!
@Regina I wanted to address your comment. While I understand the sentiment I do not think that would've been a good idea because the point for BW livng well is to NOT experience dangerous situations like what happened.I'm sure you mean well...but this isn't a Tyler Perry movie this is real life. We want NO DRAMA. We don't BW witnessing it either. For BW to move on they cannot be angry, wincing, pining after, begging, wanting to see the humilation of or really wanting anything from any random BM who has not shown by his actions that he's uplifting and supporting BW. In the world of an unindoctrinated BW there is total indifference and she's occupied by fulfilling relationships and activities. If the man such a BW is doing his job he is protecting her, stepping in where necessary from outside aggression NOT reveling in it in any way. Being held accountable is one thing, but this isn't dinner theater. You may take my response for a grain of salt of course.
ReplyDeleteRegina said, about Joesph's comment:
ReplyDelete"Two, as juvenile as this may seem, omg, I wish I could've seen that! I would have been cheering them on when her husband confronted the security guard, and then when the security lied about what he said and the husband gave him his dressing-down. I hope some other BW got to see it, if nothing else!"
I don't know about where the Macy's was, but in the New York City Metro area (the boroughs, Long Island, Northerm NJ, etc.) almost all of the clerks in every Macy's are black women. Same in Philadelphia, where I go once a month to visit my mother. There might have a been a whole bunch of BW getting their eyes (and ears) full on that scene, depending where the Macy's was.
Joseph said:
ReplyDelete"I don't give a damn what the "cultural standards" are among black people for behavior towards black women, there is going to be hell to pay if someone treats my wife like that."
I say:
Joseph, do you have any brothers that are single?
Cause I am looking for this kind of husband. And, I am more than happy to leave behind the dysfunctional BC forever. And unlike the unfortunate wife in the bible, I won't even look back. I won't shed a single tear.
You a good man. Your wife has to be happy with her excellent choice.