Sunday, January 13, 2013

Motherhood: the issues between black daughters and their mothers

I have written the past, about how I am convinced black girls are being starved of the necessary motherly worldly wisdom that would enable them to grow to navigate the world with success, essentially improving theirs and the social situation of successive generations.

I believe the key factor here is that many of these mothers really don’t have the necessary knowledge themselves to be able to guide themselves let alone their daughters. Many don’t know how this society we live in runs. In the UK for instance daughters of first generation immigrants are now fully established in the work force. But their parents where not very successful in establishing themselves in the middle class (racism being the key factor however many overlooked or ignored opportunities to improve their own situation like owning property when it was well within their reach and even establishing businesses so as to not be too dependent on government jobs). The result is that their children are having to find their feet in a society and social order without any guidance and direction from those who have gone before.

Life as a widower: Tribute to a beautiful wife

Even without the immigration factor, considering that far too many black girls give birth when they are to all intents and purposes children themselves, it is not a real surprise that they are not effectively instructing their daughters.

I am also increasingly coming across black women who have tortuous and fractured relationships with their mothers, coming across women who talk about how their mothers didn’t support them as women growing into their womanhood and how they didn’t or couldn’t assist them navigate the major issues that beset them as black women living in a majority white culture. In all fairness I think many of these mothers where themselves confronted with a situation that stumped them too, many didn’t know what hit them when they set foot in the West from the Caribbean and Africa! They probably had the very same issues around black womanhood in a majority white culture, as did their daughters and didn’t know who to turn to, and definitely didn’t even take up fully the role that should fall to them of guiding and directing their daughters. I believe many withdrew or became depressed at a time of life when as adults they would normally have been in a stable and knowledgeable position to offer guidance to their daughters. I think the tendency of black mothers especially in the UK to bury themselves in all things black and not venture beyond the black social milieu (and not seem to realise there is life beyond the black borders) has something to do with the cold shock and maybe inability to come up with a successful plan of integration. Real fearful experiences may have made them simply poke their heads back into the comfort zone of black spaces and never attempt to come out again. Unfortunately the legacy is that their daughters who have to integrate white spaces in order to make it in today's society, are braving it all alone which has resulted in hard feelings from some daughters towards their mothers.

In terms of fragmented and complicated relationships between black mothers and their daughters, this issue was really illuminated for me when I watched a program about survivors of violent crime last summer.

Among the people interviewed was a young black lady who lost her sister and her cousin in a drive by shooting - one of the first of its kind in the UK in which there were multiple female victims. I remember what struck me most about her case was how when asked, her mother admitted that she had never really sat down and put her arms round her daughter and had a heart to heart about their loss. It was clear that ten years on, her daughter had not healed to any extent; her demeanour and posture and the fact that she couldn’t even lift her face to the camera said it clearly. When the mother was pressed as to why she had not ever sat down to talk about the loss with her daughter, she said something that really shocked me. She said that she didn’t want her daughter to 'lean' on her in her grief! I was stunned. In other words her daughter had to take care of herself even though she was a teenager when her sister was killed. This I guess speaks to the many discussions we have had on how black women are seen as little soldiers (even from and early age), issues of strong and hard wearing black womanhood, the lack of compassion for black women and girls displayed even by immediate family, and black women being expected to get on with life without care and nurture even as they come across life-crushing experiences.

I was blown away by that one. Even though she no doubt had her own grief to bear, I couldn’t understand how a mother couldn’t find it in herself to reach out to her only surviving daughter to comfort her. A mother resenting that she would have to console her daughter, now that was a shocker to me.

As an aside, I clearly saw that contributing to this young ladies damage was the fact that she remained immersed in the black community and the dysfunctional response to the incident (as you can well imagine within the black community), was not helping matters for her. Indeed not only was the crime carried out by young black lads also she and her family were being gossiped about and blamed for the incarceration of the criminals (as I said dysfunctional response).

I cant say I don't see and come across black women who are in some way damaged and very resentful for being left to fend for themselves when they were vulnerable especially when they know their mothers should have been there for them. A lot of black women however do not realize they have issues of resentment with their mothers, and the cult of veneration of motherhood and nothing but the utmost respect for elders is possibly preventing them from both recognising and resolving the issue through admitting their disappointment, and justified anger.

Well add race to the mix here and we could indeed write reams about the fractures that occur between mixed race daughters and their white mothers.

In all this we can ask, where are the fathers?

I do focus on mothers because I think there is a specific sort of training that mothers will need to give their daughters so they can be successful in the area of relationships and child rearing. I look at how Jewish mothers put a lot of effort into enabling their daughters make their way successfully In society. I find many black mothers don’t even take the time to prepare their daughters to be well behaved and to show and emphasize how necessary it is to be personable and win friends,mentors, champions and allies as they go out into the world. Black daughters are on their own and by trail and error they finally put together some working plan on how to get on in society but this is often not without bad falls and resulting scars including brushes with the law, failure at relationships or failure to have relationships, teenage unplanned pregnancy etc etc.

My advice to anyone who feels that they have not had much of necessary motherly guidance in specific areas, is to identify the area and get a mentor, get an instruction book or sign up for a course. As I always say, you must spend on the areas of your deficiency and build this area up with focus and effort.

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54 comments:

maria cummings said...

This post made me think way back when I was being raised by my grandmother who happened to be a very strict disciplinarian. She made my life a living hell. My teenage years were a blur because I've spent a long time trying to forget how horrible it was. I eventually left home at 18 and never looked back. My grandmother never once hugged me or tell me she loved me. Not once! Nor have my mother.

I believe that too many black women (and black men) are unfit for raising children. Most of them don't deserve to have children yet so many of us are having kids. And because most of the kids they're having were unwanted to begin with, they're treated with resentment and sometimes hatred. I know many black women who verbally and physically abuse their children and it breaks my heart. It also makes me very angry. I hate going to the supermarket and seeing an angry black mother abusing her kids in public. It's disturbing and embarrassing.

Unmarried black women who have unprotected sex with no form of birth control are not only nasty, but they are extremely irresponsible and stupid and people like that should be stopped. They should not have children because they do not deserve to be parents.

So many young black women are lacking in social skills because they were not though manners at home, or their mothers never bother to take them out so that they would learn to interact with other people. I go out and I see white people taking their kids to restaurants, functions and various other social gatherings. They do this so that their kids are prepared on how to communicate with different types of people. They learn to make connections and they learn how to network, a skill that would help them to become successful in the long run.

Many blacks are unemployed not because of racism, but because they do not socialise properly and they do not network. 70% of jobs are not advertise and this is why social skills come in handy because someone you know will be able to help you land that job that wasn't advertise. I'm just saying.

ak said...

My mother is a Jamaican immigrant who raised both in Jamaica and then in the UK as a teenager and she never had a problem socialising with whites and certain other non-Blacks in the UK, not even during the 60s through the 80s but then again she's always been the type of person that everybody just loves to be around and adored all her life......BUT

She raised me completely without input from my father which over the years exhausted her and made her exasperated and to this day I can still see many of the traces of her exhaustion. Then there's her short temper and all of this I have to admit has led to a torturous and fractured relationship from my pre-teen years which has left some damage in the aftermath in my adult years.

Halima what you saw regarding the mother's comments regarding her teenaged daughter who lost a sister and cousin a drive by shooting on that program doesn't shock me at all, not in the least and it is specifically because of what you said: 'black women are seen as little soldiers (even from and early age), issues of strong and hard wearing black womanhood, the lack of compassion for black women and girls displayed even by immediate family, and black women being expected to get on with life without care and nurture even as they come across life-crushing experiences'.

There have been times in my life when I feel that my mother stuck for me a few times when I was young and I was picked on in school BUT I felt like I was thrown to the wolves having to listen to her sharp tongue that could slice like a knife as a pre-teen and teen because there was no one (a father) to defend me then. I've only been able to stand up to my mother and confront her about her ways in the past two years!

ak said...

Look at that book called Getting Played by Jody Miller. If a book like that doesn't make black people on both sides of the pond get angry and defend and protect black girls and women, then nothing will. No, they prefer to stick up for young black men who had a gun magically appear in their hands and were whisked away by the police trolls taken far away under the bridge never to be seen again.

I DO realise and have for a long time now that I have resentment with my mother. The cult of veneration of mothers and respect for elders has gone too far in the black community on both sides of the pond and probably in Africa too. It's all down to The Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:16 'Honor they mother and they father...' but the Bible said 'honor' them not enslave your whole life, time (schedule), being, person, spirit and self-esteem to them! Sheesh!

All that means is that if you can honestly say in your heart that when you lived with your mother (and father) when you were young and you obeyed their rules and did the best you could of what you were supposed to do and what your mother asked for you in her house, then you have honored her (and him)! But if your parent(s) never honored YOU, your sense of self-esteem and your person, then you have every right to sever ties FOREVER. That's the beauty of going on to study further education in universities because you are GONE and you NEVER have to go 'back there' ever again if you don't want to. Everybody has to grow old unless they die young, so old aged be darned, they as parents need to consider that from the beginning.

My mother was a private nurse in the US who took care of an old Jewish man who had Alzheimer's who seemd so lovely and I wondered why his two daughters put him in a nursing home even though it was a very nice home with great facilities. Then my mother told me that one of his daughters told her that when he was younger and more able-minded and able-bodied he was tyrannical, controlling, domineering and belittling in a chauvanistic way to her, her sister and mother and their quiet timid mother felt too scared to stand up for herself or for them and that daughter had been in therapy about that for 20 years at that time and still hadn't finished seeing someone about her father and his affect on her!

I swear that it's reasons like that why nursing homes for senior citizens are in business al the time and why whites especially are known for putting their parents in them and why some old people spend years without contact from immediate or distant relatives until the reading of the will over their cold dead bodies. The black people who usually say that it's terrible that 'they' always put 'their' elderly in nursing homes REALLY need to mull over this one and ask themselves if it could never happen to them. As we can see through BWE, things are changing everyday....

ak said...

As for 'respect of elders' being venerated among black people in many parts of the diaspora, let me put it this way especially for people living in the UK for at least the past two years or so: Jimmy Savile was an elder. He was 84 when he died. I'll leave it to people living in the US, Canada, the Caribbean and Africa to look up his name on Google if they want to see what I mean. Oy. Gevalt.

Not every elder should be respected, followed or listened to. Look at Noah Cross the actor John Huston's character in the movie Chinatown with Jack Nicholson and Faye Dunaway to see what I mean and even the Noah Cross character said something about all people gaining some level of respect from other people as they age 'even whores and bastards'.

I apologise if I've come across a bit pain porn-y LOL but I have been going to therapy through last Fall and stopped because I'm working part time while I'm studying at the moment and my pay is abysmal currently. But I will resume my therapy sessions again soon and I won't stop until I can resolve my problems and change my life and my outlook on it for the better.

Some black women living in especially the Blackistan areas of the US, UK, the Caribbean and possibly Canada seem to prefer their daughters to act like little men 'with women parts' and fight their way throughout the worst parts of the ghetto rather than socialise them well and stress proper etiquette when really they should have saved up money to move themselves and their family out of Blackistan LONG AGO so that their daughters don't have to act like Cleo (Queen Latifah) in Set It Off during their day to day interactions with others!

My mother berated all the time for not adapting more lady-like principles which I admit that she did try to show me LOL but that's why when I have the money I'll pay for etiquette lessons for women in the London area for a week (quite pricey though) then again Switzerland isn't far away either and they still have a famous finishing school over there that still teaches women to be ladies.

Khadija said...

Halima,

Thanks for this post. Like all poisonous things that thrive in the darkness, this is one issue that needs to be exposed to the cleansing and disinfecting sunlight.

Here's my 2 cents (or pence--LOL!) from across the pond in the US:

I see a multitude of overlapping dysfunctions going on in the African-American collective when it comes to mother-daughter relationships. All of which operate to the daughters' detriment:

(1) Many AA mothers are giving their daughters advice that's totally obsolete. Strategies and world views that worked well enough many decades ago (before the AA collective became entrenched in underclass behaviors such as oow, mass paternal abandonment, etc.) are self-sabotaging poison in the modern environment.

These mothers are so BM-identified (and BM-son-identified in particular) that they never pay attention to how various trends affect their daughters. Everything these type of women say and do is ALL about lifting up BM in general and their BM sons in particular. When their daughters' needs are neglected and sacrificed along the way, it's "too bad, so sad."

(2) Many AA mothers are totally unfit to give anybody advice. These women were/are used and exploited themselves, and still haven't caught a clue. So they give their daughters the type of advice ("All men cheat,""Let a man be a man,""What did you do to provoke him to hit you?", etc.) that ruins their daughters' lives in the same way their lives are damaged.

(3) Many AA mothers are straight-up envious of their daughters. And have the attitude of "I had it bad, and you should too." Quiet as it's kept, many AA mothers have attitudes that are similar to those of Arab mothers who support the so-called "honor" murders of their own daughters.

Back in the day when I used to participate in (dead BC) community type outreach activities, I would watch many AA mothers sabotage their daughters' ability to participate in anything that might lift their girls out of poverty and into abundant life. They would repeatedly "forget" to sign permission slips for their daughters to attend life-enhancing outings, tutoring, etc. Meanwhile, they somehow "remembered" to sign permission slips for their precious sons to participate in programs.

These mothers were transparent in their envy and rage at the idea that their daughters might have a chance to enjoy a better quality of life.

(4) Then you have the internalized colorism issues. Often a darker-skinned dysfunctional AA mother "hates on" her daughter if the daughter is lighter. Or the lighter-skinned dysfunctional AA mother "makes differences" between her daughters based on complexion (treating the lighter girls better).

In summary, there's a LOT of heavy-duty sickness going on between many (if not most) AA mothers treat and raise and daughters. The vast majority of AA mothers are setting their daughters up for suffering. Whether it's intentional on these mothers' parts or not, that's the bottom line effect of what they're doing.

At this point, self-actualizing AA women and teenage girls need to understand that their own mothers just might be one of their greatest enemies. It's a hurtful and disgusting thought; but folks need to face reality and act accordingly if they want to succeed in having a good life. *sigh*

FemmeNoire said...

"Where are the fathers in this?".


I think that is a question that NEEDS to be asked. Since you decided to only focus on the mothers, and used an example of what mothers who belong to a non-Black group of women are doing as some kind of example that should be imitated, I think this is a perfect time to bring up an issue that is simply not focused on by many in the BWE community unfortunately.
First, your Jewish mother example. Jewish mothers DO NOT have to deal with the hatred of Jewish men. That right there is the crux of this problem of why BWE was even needed in the first place. Too many Black males simply HATE Black women & girls, and that has wreaked all kinds of havoc on the pysche of generation after generation of Black woman & girl. We can talk about what Black women "need" to do until we are blue in the face, but until the issue of Black male hatred of Black women & girls is fully & properly addressed, we will continue to see a myriad of problems cropping up for Black women & girls, such as the disfunctional relationship some Black mothers & daughters have with each other that you bought up.
I really think it needs to be examined fully what this being hated by the opposite gender in their race has done to the collective psyche of Black women & girls, how hard it is, how painful it is, simply blaming Black women for everything is NOT the answer.

I wonder if anyone thinks it is "nasty" for Black males to hate & abuse the women who represent their mothers, aunts, sisters, female cousins, daughters, etc. Just saying.

ak said...

But it seems like BW whether they're BWE bloggers and supporters or far from it know already that a lot of BM hate and disrespect them but the BWE blogs usually advise BW to move on and live their lives as wonderfully and freely as they can the way that everybody else does instead of standing still like a statue waiting for BM to love them, change up, 'get the message', and do at least the bare minimum level of reciprocity. What if for the next 50 years BM decided to hate BW even more than a lot of them do now and become even more violent than the horrible stories you hear about nowadays? Should black mothers hold their breath forever before deciding to help, console, protect and set up their own daughters to do well in life?

Black, white, man or woman if your psyche is damaged, there's therapy for that. Come on it's worth a shot! I can't conceive of hating and sabotaging my daughter the child I'd have the most in common with and to me the fact that you've brought a daughter into this world is reason enough to do the best by her and positioned and molded well enough to take her proper place in this world as a lady instead of the drudge and domestic for people to use up. Why do mothers need to wait for the black male love and respect that may never come anyway? The mothers who wait for that miracle WILL be at fault regarding the daughters in their charge. A widow/widower still has to raise her children properly even after the husband/wife has passed away.

Khadija said...

FemmeNoire,

Part 1

You said: "'Where are the fathers in this?.'

I think that is a question that NEEDS to be asked. Since you decided to only focus on the mothers, and used an example of what mothers who belong to a non-Black group of women are doing as some kind of example that should be imitated, I think this is a perfect time to bring up an issue that is simply not focused on by many in the BWE community unfortunately."

I'm sure Halima has her (more than eloquent) thoughts about all of this. Again, here are my 2 cents as a retired BWE blogger:

Generally speaking, I don't think that fathers can fully compensate for the lack of competent motherly guidance for their daughters. Similar to the way a woman can't really socialize boys into manhood the way an emotionally healthy man (preferably their biological fathers) can do so.

Yes, there are general "raising you to be a good and effective person" things that parents of both genders can do with children of either gender. And yes, there are certain male-psychology-based dating/vetting warning signs that a sincere and emotionally healthy father can warn his daughters about. However, it's just not the same as a girl being trained in effective womanly skills and strategies by her mother.

On top of the above, there are additional and unusual complications involved in raising Black girls to successfully navigate the modern-day world around them.

Many nonblacks (including nonblack fathers and/or stepfathers of Black girls) are either: (1) unaware of or (2) don't understand the bizarre dynamics of the various DBRBM-created minefields Black girls have to navigate. Because many of these nonblack men come from collectives that actually protect and lift up the girls/women in their group. So it's hard for these nonblack fathers and stepfathers to advise their Black daughters about the specific, bizarre, DBRBM-created, spirit-crushing situations that these men never anticipated.

Because they're unfamiliar with the bizarre dynamics of many Western Black cultures---cultures in which BW and Black children are routinely sacrificed for the whims of BM. Which is upside-down and backwards from the way most nonblack cultures operate. Normal cultures expect and demand that the men protect the women and children.

Khadija said...

Part 2 of my reply to FemmeNoire

In terms of Black fathers guiding their Black daughters through the minefields created by DBRBM's hatred of BW, that issue ties into another part of your comment when you said:

"First, your Jewish mother example. Jewish mothers DO NOT have to deal with the hatred of Jewish men. That right there is the crux of this problem of why BWE was even needed in the first place. Too many Black males simply HATE Black women & girls, and that has wreaked all kinds of havoc on the pysche of generation after generation of Black woman & girl. We can talk about what Black women "need" to do until we are blue in the face, but until the issue of Black male hatred of Black women & girls is fully & properly addressed, we will continue to see a myriad of problems cropping up for Black women & girls, such as the disfunctional relationship some Black mothers & daughters have with each other that you bought up."

Yes, it's true that women from most other racial/ethnic groups don't have to deal with hatred from the males of their groups.

But here's my concern when people speak of "addressing" BM's lethal hatred of BW: I don't see it ever being effectively addressed. And waiting around for it to be addressed seems counterproductive to me. There's not going to be any REAL justice or accountability imposed on BM for their genocidal behavior towards BW and Black girls.

There won't be any equivalent to the Nuremberg trials for the BM (c)rappers and others who created "Radio Rwanda" music and videos which play a large in creating the mass devaluing of Black female lives.

There won't be any tribunals in which Rev. Hot Comb and others are required to account for their "activism malpractice" regarding the physical survival of BW and girls.

Judging from BW's online discussions about Chris Brown, Ar-ruh Kelly, and other BM savage brutes, Notorious BM Celebrities Who Physically Attack and/or Molest BW & Black Girls won't even suffer real economic loss because of their genocidal anti-BW hatred.

Most BM haven't and WON'T ever "address" BM's genocidal hatred of BW and Black girls. I can think of several reasons for this (self-interest, cowardice, etc.). At this late date, the reasons don't really matter to me. Waiting for BM to address any of this is akin to waiting for BM to protect and provide for Black children: Never gonna happen in any significant numbers. And a lot of Black female lives will be lost or diminished while waiting around for something that won't happen.

Ditto for waiting for the masses of BM-identified BW to "address" any of this. A lot of BW's and girls' lives will be lost and diminished while debating with these BM-identified Black female collaborators.

To my way of thinking, the best thing is to advise and assist as many BW and girls as possible to GET AWAY from anybody and everybody (including their mothers if the "shoe fits") who devalues them and their lives.

I don't see it as "blaming BW." I see it as recognizing the reality that many (if not most) Black mothers are too BM-identified, too indoctrinated, and/or too unhealthy to be automatically trusted to guide their daughters into abundant lifestyles. Many (if not most) Black girls are orphans for all practical purposes.

FemmeNoire said...

The FACT of the matter is that how someone responds to being hated, however awful it may be, DOES NOT excuse the fact that that hatred exists in the first place. It is not about any "waiting" for these Black males to do anything, it IS about the FACT that Black girls WILL continue to be born, and as long as people want to take this misguided, "meh forget about what Black males are doing to SABOTAGE/UNDERMINE Black women & girls at EVERY opportunity, it is up to Black women ONLY to fix it!" there WILL be problems in the lives of said Black girls. And for everyone who thinks the simple answer is just to move out of Blackistan/date or marry out, two things. First, "Blackistan" is not only a physical place, it is also a mentality and a whole culture of anti-Black woman/girl sentiment that has seeped into mainstream White culture in America, UK, and other parts of the West, let alone in ALL parts of the African diaspora. And as far as dating/marrying out goes, well Black women, no matter how dark-skinned/African-feautred tend to have children who are MUCH lighter/ambiguous-looking than them when they have them with non-Black men, and as we all know, the lighter/mixed/ambigous look is coveted amongst these Black males, so they will NOT ignore the daughters of the same dark-skinned Black women who they tortured, harrased, abused, and chased out of Blackistan in the first place. Think about THAT for a second. Think about the potential problems THAT differentiation based on skin color/facial features could do to the mother-daughter relationship. My point is NOT to speak against moving out of Blackistan areas nor against Black women expanding their dating/marrying options, for both are sound, solid pieces of advice that Black women & girls NEED to hear, it is simply to point out that Black male hatred of Black women & girls HAS to be addressed because not only now has it made the Black community the world over a hostile place for Black women & girls, but it has now gone mainstream, ie expanded OUT of the Black community to White & other communities. How much worse does it have to get before we acknowledge that it is a SERIOUS problem that needs to be addressed? And as far as this Black male hatred of Black women & girls being "acknowledged" by the BWE community, well I guess we have different ideas of what acknowledging something is.

Karen said...

FemmeNoire:

I co-sign with statements from Khadija and add the following:

Only males can police other males. As "The Good BMs" are not policing these males, then there is no futher action that can nor should be taken by BW.

BW who marry out and have children will have to rely on their husbands and those male relatives to put DBR BMs on notice to "stay away" from their daughters. BW who are the mothers of these daughters will have the responsibility to help their daughters navigate the mine field.

In closing, it is in my opinion a "non-issue" for BW who want to thrive to concern themselves with DBR BMs.

The people who need to take action are other BMs and they have clearly shown through their inaction that they tacitly approve of the carnage being wrought by DBRBMs and their BW enablers.

There will be no reconciliation with the enemy. He has shown that will rape, murder and maim his own children and the mothers of his children. There is no reason for any dialog with such an enemy.

FemmeNoire said...

Khadijah,


Those non-Black fathers/stepfathers of Black daughters may not understand the sick, twisted bizarro world created by Black male hatred of Black women & girls that their daughters will have to navigate because of the NORMAL communities they come from where it is NOT okay to hate, abuse, torture and treat women & girls as garbage, but I think once they find out about it's existence, then they need to step up and do EVERYTHING in their power to protect their Black daughters/stepdaughters from that sick mess, as a REAL father should. I hope this is what they will do more of in the future now that Black women are dating/marrying out in higher numbers. The fact that you do not see it ever being addressed underscores my point even more. You do not ever see it being addressed because Black males simply do not care. Therefore it seems to me that that THEY are the problem-a race of males that HATES it's own women & girls. Once again, I never have nor will I EVER suggest that Black women & girls wait for these Black males to do ANYTHING, I was simply saying that we have to acknowledge that Black women & girls got into this pickle in the first place because too many, probably MOST, Black males HATE them, and that that hatred is STILL causing Black women & girls a whole host of problems both in & out of the Black community/Blackistan.

"Reasons" for it? Don't you mean "excuses"? IMHO there is NO reason for them to hate Black women & girls, point. blank. period. That they do means something is wrong with THEM, NOT Black women & girls.BTW, not saying you personally are excusing them Khadijah, but that is usually what it turns into whenever this subject (Black male hatred of Black women & girls) comes up in too many circles. A big ol excuse fest about how "bad" the poor widdle Bwack man has it, so he "can't" be held responsible for his sick, twisted hatred of Black women & girls SMH.


Karen, do not get me wrong. I was NEVER suggesting that Black women or girls should have ANY dialogue with these Black males who hate them, nor will I EVER suggest such a thing. What I also meant by "addressing" is what Khadijah said abour non-Black fathers/stepfathers to Black girls should do, and you too when you said this: "that the non-Black husbands who BW will marry and his male relatives will have to put these DBRBMs on notice to stay away from their Black daughters/step-daughters". That sums it up PERFECTLY. I was trying to say that male input was needed, but was unsure how to go about doing it. Thanks to you & Khadijah for helping me on that.

Khadija said...

FemmeNoire,

I'm not trying to monopolize this thread, so this will be my final set of responses (after all, I'm mostly retired from online conversations--LOL!).

You started your first comment by saying: "I think that is a question that NEEDS to be asked. Since you decided to only focus on the mothers, and used an example of what mothers who belong to a non-Black group of women are doing as some kind of example that should be imitated, I think this is a perfect time to bring up an issue that is simply not focused on by many in the BWE community unfortunately."

After Karen reiterated much of my response to you, you said: "Those non-Black fathers/stepfathers of Black daughters may not understand the sick, twisted bizarro world created by Black male hatred of Black women & girls that their daughters will have to navigate because of the NORMAL communities they come from where it is NOT okay to hate, abuse, torture and treat women & girls as garbage, but I think once they find out about it's existence, then they need to step up and do EVERYTHING in their power to protect their Black daughters/stepdaughters from that sick mess, as a REAL father should. I hope this is what they will do more of in the future now that Black women are dating/marrying out in higher numbers. The fact that you do not see it ever being addressed underscores my point even more. You do not ever see it being addressed because Black males simply do not care. Therefore it seems to me that that THEY are the problem-a race of males that HATES it's own women & girls. Once again, I never have nor will I EVER suggest that Black women & girls wait for these Black males to do ANYTHING, I was simply saying that we have to acknowledge that Black women & girls got into this pickle in the first place because too many, probably MOST, Black males HATE them, and that that hatred is STILL causing Black women & girls a whole host of problems both in & out of the Black community/Blackistan."

I understand the limitations of written communication online. There's no way to hear the actual tone of voice that's being used in a statement.

Here's my point of dismay with this type of thing---it seems to me that your comment was rooted in (angrily and inaccurately) criticizing BWE bloggers for purportedly not "addressing" something (BM's genocidal hatred of, and violence against, BW & Black girls) that BWE bloggers have already been talking about FOR YEARS!!!

Khadija said...

Part 2 of final reply

My sister, BWE bloggers started off YEARS AGO discussing BM's genocidal hatred of, and violence against, BW & Black girls. And BWE bloggers have already spent YEARS discussing the fact that DBRBM are root cause of most BW's difficulties, suffering, and whatever dysfunction exists among (Western) BW.

I'd prefer not to spend a lot of time quoting and linking to my own posts, but since you're speaking as if BWE bloggers and the BWE community haven't focused on DBRBM being THE source of the problem---then I'm compelled to mention at least a few things as examples showing that this is an inaccurate description of discussions within the BWE community.

This post from July 2009 is a chapter in my book. http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2009/07/last-embers-of-dying-flame-will-you.html Among other things, I clearly said: "The source of most African-American women's major, life-damaging, life-threatening problems comes from: Non-reciprocating African-American men, who constitute the overwhelming majority of African-American men; African-American women's involvement and interactions with non-reciprocating African-American men; African-American women's quest to be involved and interact with non-reciprocating African-American men." (pg. 60 in the book)

The solution of BW's nonblack husbands stepping up and doing everything in their power to protect their Black wives and daughters was discussed in this post from October 2010. http://sojournerspassport.com/if-you-really-want-to-help-black-girls-marry-one-of-this-planets-dominant-alpha-men/

I said: "African-American males are generally followers on this planet. They are not the dominant, Alpha males on this planet who get to decide which groups of women are considered attractive. Black men take their lead from the dominant White men. Whoever the dominant White men feel is attractive (White women and Asian women in general, and individual Black women), many Black men will follow their lead and parrot whatever these dominant White men say about these women. For example, I didn’t start hearing many African-American men saying that the dark-skinned Mrs. Obama is attractive until after the White media and White men were publicly talking about how she’s glamorous and reminiscent of Jacqueline Kennedy.

When more dominant, powerful, Alpha-male White men marry Black women, then Black men will stop slandering Black women. Either out of their habit of taking their cues from White men, or out of fear of offending this emerging critical mass of White men who view Black women attractive and desirable.

More and more individual African-American women living well by being married to quality men is the long-term solution to most of African-American women’s collective problems."

These above-mentioned posts aren't the only posts that discussed the topics you've accused the BWE community of not focusing on. There are other posts that I've done. And there are a multitude of posts---dating back YEARS---that other BWE bloggers have done thoroughly discussing all of this. Including the fact that BM have not and won't ever "address" any of this.

Khadija said...

Part 3 of final reply

My sister, where have you been that you don't already know that ALL of the things you've accused the BWE community of not addressing have already been discussed---YEARS ago and repeatedly ad nauseum?

One major difference between BWE activism and other BW's blogs is that most BWE bloggers are not going to spend years going around in circles with empty venting (about DBRBM) that leaves BW in the same spot they were in before they started venting. Fixating on venting about DBRBM is a waste of precious time.

BWE blogs tend to move beyond identifying THE source of most of BW's problems (DBRBM) to formulating and implementing escape strategies.

I'm NOT saying that you said this, but I want to make my position clear: I disagree with complaints about BWE blogs that essentially say: "Stop talking about practical escape strategies and the ways in which BW can stop being complicit in their own oppression so we can endlessly vent about DBRBM." Endlessly ruminating over the many physical atrocities and spirit-murders committed by DBRBM is a distraction and diversion from what should be the point---helping more BW and girls Escape From Blackistan and find their way into abundant life.

FemmeNoire said...

Khadijah.


My sister, I was around from the BEGINNING of the rise of BWE on the internet in the mid/late part of the '00s. And let me assure you I was as PLEASED AS COULD BE that FINALLY there was an outlet that was naming Black male hatred as the TRUE source of so many Black women & girl's pain,
shattered lives, othering, etc. I ate up all the info on these wonderful blogs, yours and this one included, and eagerly with baited breath awaited the next posts that would talk this REAL TALK that so badly NEEDED TO BE SAID.


That however, was in the beginnging.


Somewhere along the way, the focus of said blogs seemed to change from being about helping Black women & girls/putting Black male hatred of them on blast to talk about how something being so "wrong" with Black women was why Black women & girls find themselves in so much trouble. Well IMHO and with all due respect, that is NOT going to help at all, yet more voices to add to all the MANY existing ones contantly telling Black women & girls that something is "wrong" with them and that is the problem? Is that what Black women & girls need? I do not think so!


I do not see how venting prevents talk about solutions for Black women & girls being presented/discussed. It seems to me there is room for both. Talk about solutions is great, talk about formulating/implementing those solutions is even better, but we HAVE to be realistic about what awaits Black women & girls out there, both in AND out of Blackistan. In case anyone wonders what I am talking about, see what was said by NON-BLACKS online about a character in the Hunger games series once people found out that said character was a little BLACK girl, for just ONE example of many. Finally, that bit about Black women being "complicit" in their own oppression is part of what I am talking about. I disagree about that for I do NOT belive in victim-blaming, and I NEVER saw anyone suggest such a thing about Black MALES when the time came to fight White institutional racism, ie the rise of the civil rights movement. Why the double-standard?

Halima said...

Somewhere along the way, the focus of said blogs seemed to change from being about helping Black women & girls/putting Black male hatred of them on blast to talk about how something being so "wrong" with Black women was why Black women & girls find themselves in so much trouble.

FemmeNoire,I think there is room for black women to reflect on their own behavior and actions that lead them to a bad place, as well as room for criticism of the powers that be, the structures of society, black men and white society and what have you. It shouldnt be one or the other, indeed binary framing of issues is not helpful to the bw cause. One of the reason I feel that many 'movements' fizzle out (for instance the feminist movement is rather quite unconvincing to many women at this point) is the lack of self-reflection and blaming of all problems on external factors.

Bw have a lot of work to do, if not for anything, to help themselves out of their situation regardless of who put them in it in the first place. i dont see how having those conversations about what bw can adjust in themselves doesnt ultimately aid bw in their quest for victorious living. sure it might bn=not be the pattern adopted by other causes and movements who must maintain that all problems come from the external (binary framing) and they are victims of the system, or government or men etc, but i dont think this approach can help bw because given the unique situating of bw in this society a lot of self-elevation is needed in our fight.

I think the term victim-blaming has become an unhelpful term in many ways and has been deployed largely by those who refuse to accept that many so called victims could do so much to prevent their victimhood.

I also think BWE work comes from the point of exploring and exposing that which many refused to name or critique or accept as a legitimate factor in the state of black womanhood, which was the BC itself and in particular BM, it doesnt mean that we do not recognize and appreciate that there is white racism.

I wouldnt think that any bw today would need to be 'lectured' about what racism is.

FemmeNoire said...

Halima.


In my using of the Hunger games example, I was not attempting to say that BWE ignores White racism, but was attempting to illustrate how Blackistani thinking in the guise of EXTREME anti-Black woman/girl hatred has in many ways now become mainstream, and it has become mainstream largely because Black males and their thinking/behavior have become mainstream thanks to the rise of hip hop and their numbers in the most popular of Western pro sports, (Soccer/Football in UK/Europe, Basketball, NFL/American Football, and to a lesser extent Baseball in the US/Canada). My point is that 9 out of 10 times, anti-Black racism in the West, America/Canada/UK in particular, has evolved into some kind of bizarre phenomenon that says when it comes to Black people, ANYTHING male=GOOD, and ANYTHING female=BAD. Does that not sound like Blackistan to you? It sure does to me.

About the victim/victim blaming thing, well I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I will say this though. When you have a general culture among males that says anything Black & female is NOT worthy of love, protection, and other good things that they are all to eager to give to women & girls who are NOT Black, then you are going to have a situation that makes victims by default.

Karen said...

When you have a general culture among males that says anything Black & female is NOT worthy of love, protection, and other good things that they are all to eager to give to women & girls who are NOT Black, then you are going to have a situation that makes victims by default.

Any sensible BW or girl, will stay far away from DBR BMs. When critical mass is reached, then whatever DBR BMs do will be completely irrelevant.

As long as BW continue to focus on what such creatures, do and insist in remaining around them, then by their actions, will continue to become victims.

At the end of the day DBR BMs do have any resources other than those allowed by BW. The sooner we stop supporting those that do not support us, the better off we will be.

I am glad to be alive to witness the beginning of "The Shift" and hope to live long enough to see "critical mass" reached where a sizable portion of BW seek their fortunes far and away from the BC and find love not based on the color of one's skin but based on their character.

FemmeNoire said...

Karen.


Once again, I see the onus being put on what Black women & girls "need" to do, in other words, I see Black women & girls being BLAMED for the fact that they are HATED by most Black males. You want to talk about "sensible"? Please explain to me how a 7-10 year old Black GIRL is supposed to process that she is HATED by males who look like her and who are in her family/neigborhood and react "sensibly" to that? Please explain to me how teenage Black GIRLS who have enough to deal with as it is coping with the normal fears/anxieties/pressures of the teen years already now also have to deal with the fact that they are HATED by the males in their race and are in TOO many cases NOT seen as worthy girlfriend material by racist/colorist/cowardly males of other races, how are they supposed to process that and react "sensibly" to it? I have seen/heard people (ESPECIALLY males) react negatively to and insult the most MEEK, QUIET, POLITE, LADYLIKE, INTELLIGENT, ACCOMPLISHED of Black girls & women SIMPLY because they are BLACK & FEMALE (See some of the garbage said about Michelle Obama, Condi Rice, Oprah Winfrey, Gabby Douglas, Venus & Serena Williams, etc for examples) so it is NOT some failure on the part of Black women & girls that people, Black males and otherwise, choose to hold these racist, bigoted, misogynistic views towards them and treat them accordingly.

This is NOT about Black women & girls "focusing" on what these males who hate them are doing, though I will say this, it is kind of hard NOT to notice that if while you live in Blackistan (And are in the process of saving up to move elsewhere) and you want to dress up nice to go downtown to get your swirl on, you run the risk of possible physical violence and guarenteed verbal abuse by these Black males if you ignore their crude, disgusting advances en route to the subway, bus or cab. It is about ACKNOWLEDGING just how DIFFICULT it is for Black women & girls to navigate this mess that BLACK MALES created for them both in and now OUT of Blackistan.


Saying that these Black males only have resources that Black women "give" them is NOT true. All these anti-Black female rappers, atheletes, actors, comedians, etc it is NOT Black women who signs their fat paychecks. It is NOT Black women who make these bleeding heart White liberals cry their eyes out for EVERY Black male abuser/rapist of Black women/girls seeing them as some kind of poor innocent little victims! It is NOT Black women who have made abuse of Black women & girls the NORM in Africa! Come on! This is nothing but BLAMING Black women & girls for EVERYTHING! The EXACT same thing that happens in Blackistan! And if you want to talk about Black women "supporting" these Black males please tell me WHY I see some on supposed "BWE" sites defending, praising Black males and getting all mad when something bad happens to them?

People really need to be honest with themselves here. Either you support Black women & girls or you do not. It is as simple as that.

amy said...

There is nothing confusing about the issues discussed on BWE blogs like Halima's. There is no victim blaming going on whatsoever.

Many of these blogs including this one point out practical ways that BW can take to transform their lives for the better. Exactly what is achieved by writing 'oh poor poor black women, so downtrodden and helpless, everybody is just so mean to us'? The fact of the matter is, nobody is about to stop what they are doing and embark on 'operation save BW'. It is not about to happen, not now or ever.

And that is why these BWE blogs matter. They tell befuddled BW to put down the okey-dokey drink and get on with living their lives in a way that enhances their overall wellbeing. No amount of protesting, complaining and pleading will get those who malign BW to stop. They benefit too much from the status quo to make any change.
It is all up to us to become shrewd and turn the game in our favor. And I believe that BW are more than capable of doing just that. But first, many more need to wake up.

Karen said...

FN:

I have yet to read you provide any practical action plan for BW and girls whereas various BWE blogs have done exactly that (ex: Halima and Khadija's former blogs (Muslim Bushido/Sojourner's Passport).

I am not sure what you read from me, but I never stated that BW are being blamed for being hated by BMs.

What I stated was:

"..As long as BW continue to focus on what such creatures, do and insist in remaining around them, then by their actions, will continue to become victims."

^^The point being, that BW need to get away from them.

Sensible BW and girls are not going to change today or tomorrow how BMs behave, so the best strategy is to leave them behind. What value does it bring to focus on BMs?....NONE What value does it bring to try to understand anyone that hates you? It is better to get away from them, emotionally and physically.

On the issue of financial support of these creatures, when we stop going to their movies, buying their CDs, purchasing magazines and what not, it would have an impact. After all, when there is no audience, then there is no revenue and therefore, there will be no paycheck. Most of them got started on the pocketbooks of BW, we need to stop being the "Wind beneath their wings"...

If you have a strategy/action plan for BW and girls that does not include focusing on BMs, please feel free to share it here.

Change starts first with oneself, and when one has emotionally moved on, there is only indifference to BMs. Frankly that is the best emotional place to be, then one can start working on getting physically away from them and all their enablers.

This is my final reply as I can add nothing further to my position that the best solution is and remains for BW to leave such creatures behind.

Khadija said...

I feel compelled to add another observation. It's something for the silent audience to consider.

I've seen these particular dynamics before. I saw them waaay back in the day when I would attend Nation of Islam (NOI) lectures. Most of the AAs in the audience would get all excited and happy when the speaker from the NOI would (truthfully) talk bad about racist Whites and put White America in general "on blast."

But these same Black audiences would get sullen---and in some cases, actually angry with the NOI ministers---whenever the NOI ministers talked about SELF-correction and the HARD WORK each individual Black person needs to do to free themselves from being so very vulnerable to the whims of people who hate Black people.

Meanwhile, the NOI ministers would tell folks that the purpose of the lectures was to give listeners the tools to free themselves (properly applied work and self-correction). Not to supply entertainment by verbally blasting oppressors.

If somebody's pushed you into a ditch, then it's going to take hard work (climbing) and self-correction (stop digging the hole deeper) to get out of that ditch.

Sitting around screaming and shrieking "They pushed me into this ditch! It's ALL their fault!!" is not---and will never be---a substitute for the hard work (climbing) and self-correction (stop digging the hole deeper) needed to get out of the ditch. No matter how loud the person screams. No matter how angry the person gets while screaming.

We've seen this proven over the decades (actually over a century) with Black males. Black males' general refusal to do any hard work or engage in any self-correction is why BM consistently remain at the very bottom of every multiracial country BM live in. While other nonwhites do the work and self-correction needed for them to keep moving on up.

While negro males sit around endlessly shrieking about "de evil WM" everybody else is moving on up into the Promised Land. The example set by negro males is NOT anything that any sensible person would imitate.

It's been my observation that the BWE escape plan works when you actually work the plan. There's a difference between talking about the escape plan and actually working the escape plan. One major part of the escape plan is to disconnect from, and stop fixating on, negro males.

Those BW who actually work the BWE escape plan generally find much more peace of mind and a higher quality of life. Each individual BW has to decide for herself whether or not she's willing to actually work the escape plan.

ak said...

When Rev Lisa Vazquez's blog Black Women Blow The Trumpet was public, before it became private and by invitation only, her blog mentioned that introspection is very important for BW and for everybody in general and BW who want to better their personal situations have to look back on what they do, how they always act or react and their thinking patterns to learn from mistakes, learn from the better moves they've made, etc. in order to do better for themselves in the future. Everybody in this world could do with self-improvement on some level or other.

I have a LOT of work to do on myself, trust me. Again any introspection mentioned on BWE websites I don't believe is coming from a place of shaming, muck-raking,'slut shaming' or what have you regarding any BW that may happen to read them. It's just that anybody living in this world can benefit from looking back and seeing what they've done and what they do in the future that will be better or more preventative.

FemmeNoire said...

Karen.

You want to know what my action plan for BW & girls to succeed is? I will be more than happy to explain it to you.

Black women & girls have taken all kinds of abuse for decades/generations, and yet inspite of that, Black women & girls have STILL managed to find a way to succed in multiple endeavors, be it academia, sports, entertainment, business, etc. So the problem as I see it is NOT some failure on Black women's part when it comes to willingness to better themselves, it is what Black women & girls have been TAUGHT/TOLD about themselves that is the problem. Black girls come into this world being told that they are ugly, unworthy, unlovable, something-other-than female burdens whose ONLY use is in supporting Black males and being sexually avaliable to make more Black males and satisfy certain urges of those same males. She is also taught that girls/women of other races are better than her and deserve more than she does and she has a whole real life & media machine backing that line of thought up as far as she can see. THAT IMHO is the problem, and since Black women are going into a dating/marrying arena composed mainly of a pool of men who CREATED this situation AND with with such self-destructive programming from GIRLHOOD, then is it any wonder romance/inter-action with males is sadly often such a toxic mindfield for so many Black women & girls? What I am saying is that many adult Black women/teen Black girls need to be DEPROGRAMMED from that sick mess and told that they are NOT ugly, unworthy, unlovable, something-other-than-female burdens whose ONLY use is in supporting Black males and being sexually availiable to those same Black males t omake more Black males and to satisfy certain urges those males have, and that other girls/women DO NOT deserve more than her NOR are more pretty/worthy than she is simply because they are not Black. And that garbage needs to be NIPPED IN THE BUD BEFORE it gets into the head of a precious little Black girl and is allowed to take root. And in many cases it is going to HAVE to be MALES doing some (At least 75% of it, if not more IMHO) of that deprogramming. Now since you and other BWE proponents claim that Black women & girls have so many friends outside of Blackistan/Black community, where are they to do this deprogramming? I eagerly await the answer.

To summarize, I am ALL for telling Black women & girls to move out of hostile Blackistan areas, to focus on getting the BEST grades in school that they can, to save their pennies and become finacially savvy, to reach for the skies and focus on their dreams whatever they may be, to seek out alternative activities/hobbies that may not be so common in the Black community, etc. I simply maintain that it is going to take MORE than that. Now am I really so wrong/off-base for thinking like this? Black women & girls did NOT get into this pickle alone, so I ask again, am I really so wrong/off-base for thinking the way I do?

Unknown said...

FemmeNoire, I wrote a piece back in 2008 urging bw to flee the black community here: http://bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com/2008/08/living-well-run-like-crazy-and-escape.html

I've written tons of articles since then about this plague of DBR black males. Around that time, I actually coined a term "Damaged Beyond Repair" or DBR and applied it to the functioning of the overwhelming majority of bm in the USA. I didn't think this was being mean. To me it was the same as telling other people that there are rabid or feral animals around them. I would certainly want someone to warn me about this. I thought this would compel bw to get as far away from these males as possible and get their daughters and other bw they love away from these males.

But the typical bw is hardheaded in love with "black love". She doesn't want to leave or get away from those DBR males. The typical bw wants someone to magically repair those males so that they can have plenty of chocolate men loving them up. That is NOT going to happen. Meanwhile those DBRs are poisoning and burying bw and their daughters and bw's sons because that's what a DBRbman does. That's his nature. Yes, he's also infecting little black boys with the poison and that little black boy then becomes another poisoner of the spirits of black girls. That's just how it is at this point. That's also why I was willing to do ANYTHING to make sure that my chocolate sons weren't contaminated by these males and thankfully I succeeded, so it can be done.

But most bw have got to stretch themselves waaaaaay out of their comfort zones in some cases to make sure that they and their children survive this. If bw are waiting on bm as a group to do anything, their daughters are already gone.

No one has the magic formula to repair the DBRs now and they're multiplying every day. So AAs are now in a 'survival of the fittest' mode. But this particular virus is not going to be televised.

Unknown said...

Halima, I wrote the above comment. For some reason, my name isn't attaching to it.

Evia

Halima said...

FemmeNoire

You know what, at this point, i am tired of this back and forth with you. clearly you do not agree me and many others responding on this post, so i think it is time to agree to disagree.

there is something to be said for simply stating your case in one or two responses and leaving it at that with dignity. it doesnt look good trying to brow beat others into your way of seeing it, getting all riled up and emotional as comes across from your last few comments.

you seem to be of the impression that you and you alone are standing for bw in calling out bm for their misuse of bw, and nothing it seems is going to budge you from that perspective. thats fine if you want to see it that way, however I and many of the responders are saying loud and clear that we call out bm everyday and allday however we have also moved beyond that first stage and are now more about preaching to bw to escape and disintagle themselves from bc/bm. To us that is the most productive aspect of BWE work rather than just the calling out and ranting at bm. if you think that inviting bw up and out is blaming bw, well thats your view!

so in conclusion i say Peace, fight the battle of empowernment of bw the way you see fit!

amy said...

FN,

It seems to me that you are looking for the PERFECT solution that will solve the hellish mess that has come to define the interaction of BM & BW.

Well, allowing perfect to become the enemy of good enough is not in the interest of BW at the moment. So, the 'imperfect' solutions offered on BWE blogs is all I know. I also know that they are effective!

Worrying and working on things within one's control leads to self-fulfillment. I can't tell the skies not to rain but I can chose to stay indoors and avoid getting wet and cold. Again, worry about things you can control, the rest will sort themselves out.

ak said...

To be honest though for anybody reading this, if BW put their foot down from at least 25 years ago about what treatment of themselves and their images that they would and would not accept from mainstream media, black media, black entertainers, black church etc., a lot of what some BW are decrying and finally complaining about would have been squashed and more closely controlled and monitored.

The influence over BW's images today in or out of Blackistan stems from what happened somewhere around 25 years ago and I hate to have to say it but BW were responsible for standing on the side of their own enemy mud slingers just because those mud slingers happened to be BM when the BW could have just refused to finance or support them and put them on permanent 'nignore'. The BW around that time didn't stop to think about the effect their inane support would have on their daughters and granddaughters in the future because they were stuck (or maybe some wanted to be stuck) in their 'mule hypnotism'.

I read a while ago an interview from Marsha Hunt that back around when the 'Brown Sugar' song from the Rolling Stones came out and she was seeing Mick Jagger she was invited to sing and dance on stage during their tour and the band's wardrobe people picked out some short skirted, scantily clad outfits for her but Marsha said that she turned those outfits down right away around the time because she said her mother, grandmother and aunts etc. would be upset with her prancing around half naked on stage as a black woman so she felt like she didn't want to show her own family up and embarass them.

Fast forward to the late 80s and you have 2 Live Crew down in Miami showing half naked BW on their album covers and in their videos and lewd, over-sexualised lyrics. But then feminists and people like Al Gore's wife Tipper publicly speak about the demeaning images of women and lyrics about women who don't even look like them (!) but then came that Gates Jr creature who stuck up for 2 Live Crew but lo and behold BW join ranks on Gates's side AGAINST their own images. Wha...?

Then it became NWA out in LA with their B's and H's language. It seemed like the only BW to take up publicly for the worthiness and dignity of BW and their images was the lovely and belated C. Delores Tucker. All the other BW seemed to be more like 'Well let the poor little things make all the money they want from their lyrics' or they'd say 'Well I like rap and they ain't talkin bout me when they rap so why should I care?'. Oy.

How shortsighted. Plus the lining of the pockets by BW of black comedians doing stand up acts who were NOT Richard Pryor or Eddie Murphy as well as the black male actors who could mostly only catch a break from Spike Lee because Hollywood was still hesistant to give them a look in. Now you're a 'nappy headed H' just cause you're playing basketball.

ak said...

It never ended, it only got worse and even more incredulous. It became BW standing on the side of Mike Tyson against the rape victim Desiree Washington, then standing on the side of Clarence Thomas against sexual harassment victim Anita Hill (even when white feminists publicly stuck up for Hill) which led to R. Kelly and any black schoolgirl who sadly ever crossed his path and so on.

Gosh I HATE having to say this but you reap what you sow but it's crazy to sow against your OWN self, your daughters and your granddaughters. THIS is why introspection and self-work is so important to BW because their mule hypnotism led them and their daughters to such foolishness like all of that! Anyone BW who remembers those devastating recently historical events in the media and the reaction of BM and BW at that time CANNOT be too shocked about the mud-slinging backlash going on now.

Back in the day you had to have cable to see any kind of music vids, now with the internet and YouTube anyone in the world can see rap vids with their pornography of BW in them so how can you not be ready for Blackistan's views on BW to color some opinions of those out there in the wider world, especially in those countries that had stereotypical views of blacks beforehand? You shoulda stuck with good ol' Ms Tucker, what can I tell ya? At least she gave a goshdarn.

Look at the Jews and how they put silly old John Galliano in his place. That extrovert will have to be working undercover in fashion through somebody else's good name or a 'ghost' name for the rest of his life. THAT'S the way you do it, and years ago we had our chance even when some WW feminists were taking up for us as potential allies which could have helped, but BW blew it big time.

ak said...

I read that Ntozake Shange received some accolades back in the early 70s for 'For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When The Rainbow Is Enuf' from the mainstream media but BM started protesting the way she was portraying them in that play and later on I saw video footage from the 80s of BM protesting the way BM were being portrayed in The Color Purple movie through Danny Glover's character 'Mister'. BW should have taken the same stance later on when rap and its images where used to beat BW to a pulp because there would probably be a lot less 'damage control' work among BW today who are finally getting the message to 'shift' things in the positive direction for themselves and their daughters.

Only a crazy person would work against their own worth and their own images. Take a leaf out of the book from the Jewish people regardless of the magical 'black unity' not coming to fruition, this is why Jews don't have to do extra work to shore up the dignity, worth and image of their women and girls.

tiffany campbell said...

I definitely see where your coming from. As a 21 year old woman who still commutes from school and is in between part time jobs. It's been next to impossible to move out on my own. I am usually private about the guys I date towards my family because they know the slightest thing about vetting especially my mother. I was going on a date with this guy I met online and had figured I'd show my mother a video of him doing a sport that he does well in when she asked me if I was sure that he wouldn't want to date a popular young white girl instead of me since he seemed popular himself. I told her to not reflect her insecurities on me; which also brought me to sometimes question who needs enemies when I could just have a mother like mine. She is much lighter than me with long hair which has caused alot of black men to fetishize her in the past. And although I'm her daughter I have always made better choices than her even when I made mistakes. I know that apart of her can't understand why my dark nappy headed self is living a better life than her and how on earth do I find white men that like to date me. She will sometimes convince herself it's because of my "smaller lips" or some other preconceived "white feature" when I in reality have typical African features. Full Cupid's bow two toned lips, kinky coily hair, almond shaped eyes, and dark brown skin depending on the season.

Halima said...

The influence over BW's images today in or out of Blackistan stems from what happened somewhere around 25 years ago and I hate to have to say it but BW were responsible for standing on the side of their own enemy mud slingers just because those mud slingers happened to be BM when the BW could have just refused to finance or support them and put them on permanent 'nignore'.

Ak you have highlighted many key points and i want to pick up on two that are very important.

firstly it was and is bw anger and maliciousness towards white people (which extended towards whites who stood up for her) that entrenched a good bit of this anti-bw nonsense. many bw were and continue to be crazed with historical anger towards whites that they will fight and battle against any white person that approaches the color line to address any situation, even if the person is supporting them and even if silencing the person leads to their detriment. we still have bw who till this day will support bm doing wrong to white and other women or on white men in the name of getting venegence on white folk, yet when the dust settles, it is bw who are often the ones lying wounded on the ground either because bm intended to decieve bw all along by asking bw to support their false venegence project so they could get access to bw rescources, or the inbuilt privileges in the system that kick in for others simply kicked in and left bw in the lurch.

increasinly white folk are beginning to understand that bw carry the fire of anger in their bossom and are thus avoiding and shunning bw socially in favour of bm.

the other point is that the mainstream does indeed take a line from the black community. when they see that bw dont confront bm in their anti-bw activities, white folks simply adjust their 'notions' to reflect this situation and begin to search for ways to make it legitimate. I have seen this happen in the 'progressive' movement and in the feminsit movement where white women simply open up a fresh framework for bw in which they build a 'rationale' for the situation bw are experiencing, yet these same women would never ever accept the same rationale/status quo of bw for themselves and their lives. it gets to the point where these feminists even normalize the situation for any minority woman and begin to round on any minority woman who demands different.

Halima said...

tiffany

thats very sad, and just highlights the toxicity that can exist within a black family set up when people do not purge themselves of notions of colorism and who should be above the other because of the lightness of their skin. another aspect to this unsavory situation between black mums and daughters!

JaliliMaster said...

I am surprised that there were BWE bloggers and other commenters who took the bait. Notice how the poster managed to successfully derail the comments/discussion away from what the post was about, a post, I might add, that she did not agree with.

If someone wants to insist on having a rant about things beyond their control, let them. It doesn't mean you should engage with them!

Karen said...

JaliliMaster,

I can only speak for myself but I did not "take the bait".

It served as a teachable moment for those ladies who may not understand the history or dynamics such situations.

Soul Alive said...

Perhaps, Femme needs to read this excellent post by Gina from WAOD, http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/waod/2013/1/7/be-proactive-ignorecotting-baby-kimye.html.

Its about circle of concern and influence. FemmeNoir is a typical distractor/obfuscator she/he goes around in circles saying the same thing over and over, yet when pressed for their viable plan to help BW and girls, continued to write how ugly we were told we are, who is abusing us and so on and so on. In all of that I heard no ideas, let alone innovative or refreshing ones. FemmeNoir, you are in no position to help anyone as you are incapable of separating yourself from BMales.

You are so invested in making them not hate BW that you focus on that instead of your immediate circle of concern which is to help whom you can and not worry about the persons (Bmales) who would step on your neck for two cents.

You are a time waster and a classic example of how not to manage ones life if they want to live well and prosper.

Khadija said...

JaliliMaster,

I totally understand your point. And in most instances, I usually take that same position myself.

However, I'm not going to let anybody tell lies about what BWE consists of, and rewrite the history of BWE. Which is what anti-BW saboteurs want to do. I'm especially not going to let that big, greasy lie about BWE supposedly "not addressing" BM's mass hatred of BW stand unchallenged.

YOU know the true historical record about what the pioneering and other early BWE bloggers addressed. Because you were around back then. But there are a lot of easily-deceived BW and girls coming behind you who don't know the truth about any of that.

These BW latecomers are not reading any of the pioneering or early BWE blogs. When they do read pioneer BWE blogs, they're not bothering to read the archives of those blogs.

Many of these BW latecomers are reading 3rd/4th-generation, lightweight BWE-ish blogs that claim to be about BWE, but yet support anti-BW movie mess from Tyler Perry, Quentin Tarantino, Steve Harvey, Michael Ealy, and anybody else who either p*sses on BW or erases BW from their own history or pimps BW consumers for their money while lifting up nonblack women.

Many BW latecomers are getting a very distorted view of what BWE is about from these lightweight, 3rd and 4th generation, sorta-kinda BWE-ish blogs.

What I've noticed for several years is that when somebody tells bald-faced LIES about the original BWE blogs and the history of BWE, very few members of the BWE community who were around at the beginning bother to set the record straight. Most of y'all let those lies stand.

For most of the BW coming behind us (who---just like Blacks in general---are generally too lazy to research the record about anything), those unchallenged lies become the history.

There are a lot of Sista Soldiers, Mammy Mules and other types of BW saboteurs who want to block other BW from hearing the BWE message. Because misery loves company. And these envious BW saboteurs are in overdrive now that they see that increasing numbers of BW have gotten the BWE memo and are escaping from Blackistan.

The BW saboteurs see that they're being left behind to rant and scream in their empty rage, and they don't like behing left behind while other BW find abundant life and peace of mind. So the saboteurs try to block the exits. One way they try to block the exits is by telling lies about what BWE means and consists of.

amy said...

Tiffany,

Wow, I'm proud of you for standing up to mom's hateful tactics. Clearly, her mind has been ravaged by colorism but there is no reason for you to become a victim of her inferiority complex. Keep your head up.

JaliliMaster said...

I hope no one took my "taking the bait" comments as an insult. It certainly wasn't meant that way.


"What I've noticed for several years is that when somebody tells bald-faced LIES about the original BWE blogs and the history of BWE, very few members of the BWE community who were around at the beginning bother to set the record straight. Most of y'all let those lies stand.

For most of the BW coming behind us (who---just like Blacks in general---are generally too lazy to research the record about anything), those unchallenged lies become the history."


I completely agree with you here Khadija. However, after you posted links to posts that completely contradicted the false claims the poster FemmeNoir was making, and yet she still continued arguing her point, her nonsense should have been shut down.

I clicked on the post expecting to see a sensible discussion (there were already 28 comments when I read the post). Instead, a good chunk of the comments were of this one poster arguing with herself, about why we should, in essence, spend our time ranting about bm. Notice that when another commenter asked her to give specific examples of what she was/is doing to help bw, she ignored them and kept on arguing. It was only about 20-something comments down that Halima actually called her out and tried to shift the discussion back to the actual post. She only got away with that nonsense because she framed her words in the guise of pro-BW speak. The fact that she STILL hasn't:-

1) Addressed any of the important points Halima made in the post,

2) Addressed any of the points others made in the comments section,

3) Kept on with her made-up falsehoods and mischaracterisations of BWE, even AFTER she was given evidence otherwise,

4) Made any attempt to discuss PRACTICAL ways to improve the lives of BW & girls.

That tells us that either her motives have little to do with lifting BW up, she is blinded by her possibly justified anger towards BM, OR, she recognises herself in the type of BW Halima described in the post, and is worried that she will get left behind.




"There are a lot of Sista Soldiers, Mammy Mules and other types of BW saboteurs who want to block other BW from hearing the BWE message. Because misery loves company. And these envious BW saboteurs are in overdrive now that they see that increasing numbers of BW have gotten the BWE memo and are escaping from Blackistan.

The BW saboteurs see that they're being left behind to rant and scream in their empty rage, and they don't like behing left behind while other BW find abundant life and peace of mind. So the saboteurs try to block the exits. One way they try to block the exits is by telling lies about what BWE means and consists of."

This, is exactly what I think happened with this particular poster. The fact is, so far, she HAS succeeded in getting everybody else to not talk about what she didn't want us to discuss(or spend little time), but instead, spend time trying to convince her that she was wrong. She wasn't just wrong, she was dishonest!

Unknown said...

Evia speaking:

I definitely wasn't pulled offtrack by anyone.

As I read Halima's post, I could read between the lines, and I believe fairly accurately, that many black mothers are not able to give to their daughters what they've never received themselves, which is appreciation for being deserving, valuable, loving, desirable--though imperfect women. Some black women are not able to teach the "soft arts" of healthy nurturing, loving, and caring or even femininity because they've either never learned them or weren't able to practice them.

IMO, most of the commenters here went to the WHY of this. They know that the reason for the WHY in most cases is because these women have been surrounded by the wrong type of males most of their lives. This means that they've usually chosen the wrong males to mingle with or have children by and many of these males were DBRs. I believe that the overwhelming most bw are still choosing DBR males as partners because they believe these are normal males. That's why I talked again about the "nature" of a DBR male. The prison population of Black women (many with young children) has risen astronomically. Why? Because they associate with DBR males. I don't believe that these women knew beforehand that these males would cause them to land in prison.


FemmeNoire didn't pull me offtrack. I knew exactly what I was saying and why.

So, I don't believe that these women are deliberately "withholding" anything from their daughters.

I think that many black mothers lead emotionally barren lives of a certain type. I think they've had to harden themselves in many ways to the bleakness of life as bw due to their associating with mostly vampiric DBR males or no males. When a woman doesn't associate with males at all, that also takes a chunk out of a woman emotionally, in many cases. Most of this emotional stinginess on the part of black mothers, IMO, is due to their reality of not having had male partners who appreciated and gave to them as valuable, lovable, deserving, desirable women.

When this has gone on for a while, the women become hollowed out in ways and are unable to give to their daughters because they dare not hope for anything better for their daughters. I think they've just accepted life for what it appears to be, to them.

This is all the more reason to not mince words and teach black girls and black women what a DBR male is BEFOREhand and tell her pointblank to stay away from him. That is not hard to do. I don't believe that many bw WANT to do that because they are magical thinkers who believe they can somehow persuade a DBR male to become normal if we just keep talking about this issue.

I spend much more of my time telling bw to get away from DBRs because even if you know who and what a DBRmale is, they can still abuse you in various ways if you remain in proximity to them. The biggest problem is STILL that most black girls and bw cannot identify who is a DBR is because this is not something that most black people will talk about openly or loudly since there are so many of these DBR males always swarming around.

Halima said...

I spend much more of my time telling bw to get away from DBRs because even if you know who and what a DBRmale is, they can still abuse you in various ways if you remain in proximity to them.

indeed evia, good intentions are defeated by bad company. when a black woman pitches her tent in the toxic black community even advising, coaching and protecting is often not enough to save her daughters from falling into the hands of DBR especially when these DBRs actually will target these girls of promise specifically until they can lower them to their level.

women living in areas of large numbers of unparented black boys need to set themselves a time line to leave especially before their daughters become preteens and way before that because you will not be able to have the full 'ear' of your daughters for long. they will interract with others in their enviroment, you cant help it and many are very skilled at ruining young girls of promise.

Even if you issue a decree to your daughters to avoid these ones, trust they have a thousand mini blackified notions that will easily turn your daughter. They can tell your daughter/s that avoiding black people is self hating etc and with that TKO idea you can go from a daughter to listens to you to a daughter who begins all out rebellion.

Khadija said...

JaliliMaster,

Like I said earlier, ordinarily I would take the same position that you're taking. However, not nowadays. And not in the context of how this particular blog discussion has played out.

Now that the BWE movement has succeeded in awakening a critical mass of BW who are in the process of escaping from Blackistan, the overall dynamics of anti-BWE trolling has changed. And what's needed to counteract Anti-BWE Trolling Version 4.0 has changed. The “battleground” has shifted because of BWE’s success.

Unlike before BWE's victory, the anti-BW saboteurs are no longer fighting over the idea of BW and girls being entitled and empowered to live abundant lives. The anti-BW saboteurs know they've already lost that particular battle. Increasing numbers of BW got the BWE memo and are escaping from all manifestations of Blackistan. What the anti-BW saboteurs are fighting for is the definition of empowerment for BW. Anti-BW saboteurs want to substitute DIS-empowering activities for true empowerment. Anti-BW saboteurs want to redefine BWE into meaninglessness.

Basically, anti-BW saboteurs want to substitute DIS-empowering activities for true empowerment for BW.

Anti-BW saboteurs want to claim that BW can be all for BWE and still spend their money to support Tyler Perry, Michael Ealy, Terrance Howard movies, Quentin Tarantino (who apparently loves to fill his movies with frequent and/or non-stop use of the n-word), etc. Anti-BW saboteurs want BW to believe that they can be empowered by financially supporting people who hate them!

Anti-BW saboteurs also want BW to believe that they can be empowered by fixating on BM and what BM are saying and doing!

Anti-BW saboteurs also want BW to believe that they can be empowered while still living and socializing in Blackistan!

Like I said, you know better than to fall for these false redefinitions of BWE because you were around since the beginning. Unfortunately, many of the BW latecomers coming after you don’t know any better. Many of the BW latecomers think that as long as they have a nonblack boyfriend, then that one fact---by itself--- automatically means that they’re empowered.

Meanwhile, just like the Mammy Mules and Sista Soldiers, many of these confused, interracially-dating/married BW latecomers are spending their money to support BM (and others) who HATE them. And these confused, interracially-dating/married BW latecomers are also spending their money to support people who NEVER give them reciprocity. Aside from their interracial relationships, a lot of these confused BW latecomers are just like the Sista Soldiers and Mammy Mules in actively financially supporting BM (and other people) who HATE them.

A large part of what makes this kind of confusion possible among the (sincere but confused) BW latecomers is the fact that most of y’all refuse to set the record straight when somebody tell lies and tries to rewrite BWE history and redefine BWE into being the opposite of what it is. When y’all let these lies go unchallenged, you’re letting the anti-BW saboteurs block the escape exits.

Long-term readers like you should’ve been the ones to set the record straight. Instead of letting the lies stand. And in your case, only bothering to participate to question folks about why they took the time to set the record straight.

Anyhoo, back to the Black mother-daughter situation. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, many Black mothers can’t be trusted to give their daughters life-enhancing advice. From the very beginning, BWE has been telling BW and girls to require reciprocity in all their interactions. That means for BW to only support the people who actually support them. And to measure support by a person’s actions and not just (empty) words.

JaliliMaster said...

Part 1 of my comments:

"Evia speaking:
As I read Halima's post, I could read between the lines, and I believe fairly accurately, that many black mothers are not able to give to their daughters what they've never received themselves, which is appreciation for being deserving, valuable, loving, desirable--though imperfect women. Some black women are not able to teach the "soft arts" of healthy nurturing, loving, and caring or even femininity because they've either never learned them or weren't able to practice them."


In some ways, I think this might be an even deeper problem than those black women who intentionally try to sabotage their own daughters, because in the case of the latter, deep down, they KNOW that they don't like/are resentful or jealous of their daughters and the potential happiness and success that their daughters could take advantage of, but they feel was denied them (either by their own shortcomings, failures of their own parents or community, being overburdened by black 'community' expectations, or, their dreams being hindered by their bad/poor choice in men, who, in many cases, would be the father of their daughters).

In the case of those who can't pass on the "soft arts" and other skills from the female card, because they weren't or didn't feel loved, nurtured or protected by those around them, they might not even know that they aren't doing a good job at being a mother to their daughters. They might only see the cause of their substandard life as being due to ONLY external factors (racism, misogyny, black male shortcomings, whether as partners or husbands, etc). So many of them only pass on the 'wisdom' according to what they know, e.g.,

- Telling their daughters to always keep their nose in their books when they are off to college. This ignores the fact that a significant number of women meet their husbands at college. They don't know this either because they didn't go to college, or their college experience was one of dateless nights or mansharing.

- As they don't realise that there is a whole world of men out there, the only 'boy/man/dating' advice they are able to give is centred around the poor options most bw women have in the cesspit of the so-called black community. This further ties into my previous point, in that in college, there are so many opportunities to meet smart, likely to be successful men, but their daughters go there and only associate with the types they are used to or grew up around (for those that attend HBCUs, it's a whole other story).


JaliliMaster said...

Part 2 of my comment (I think I might have double posted part 1):

- Even those who try to get their daughters to try new things, they still don't equip them with even a remote idea of the most basic cards every woman must possess. They see everything as being the fault of someone else, or as having been TAKEN away from them. They don't see any of the mistakes they made in their own life by completely ignoring their femininity. As a result, they give their daughters the sort of advice that may be more suited to their sons (and once again, we see another way many otherwise decent black women - unintentionally - screw their daughters over because they were only willing to pass on the tips and advice that would work more for boys than girls). One example is telling them to work hard and be successful, and that this is all that is required. They never tell them anything in regard to how to carry themselves as WOMEN, in a bid to put one's best foot forward. If a man works hard and becomes successful in his career, he can carry himself in a 'scatty/scabby' way and still manage to find reasonably desirable women to marry. The same does not apply in the reverse. Hence the reason one can commonly see a man who makes little to no effort with his appearance/grooming, manage to get attractive, and possibly educated women, if he is very successful in his career/business. How often do we see the same for well-to-do, but unkempt women. Then again, one hardly ever sees successful women who don't take care of their appearance. And in such cases, these women are either perennially dateless, or date/marry men who are far below them economically. There are some behaviours men can engage in that would affect them minimally, but if a woman acts similarly in public, would have a more negative effect on her e.g., being loud, aggressive, using foul language etc. We can call it sexism, but that's life. However, bear in mind that when men want to settle down, their behaviour changes, especially if he is trying to attract a different type of woman from the ones he normally dates/sleeps with. That's when they stop thinking it's okay to swear in front of a woman.

- These women don't realise that 'making it' in the world involves more than just effort. Being able to successfully interact with different kinds of people and having an appealing personality/demeanour also matter. So their daughters do well in school, get a good job, but struggle with forming relationships, be it personal or business. This further hinders their advancement in life.

JaliliMaster said...

"So, I don't believe that these women are deliberately "withholding" anything from their daughters."


I would have to disagree on this point. Yes, there are many that are unable to, but quite a few of them KNOW that the 'advice' that they are giving to their daughters will do them harm. That is what they want. Not necessarily because they hate their daughters, but because they need/want someone to keep them company in their own suffering. It's easier to make that happen when their daughters have no choice/opportunity to leave.


"I think that many black mothers lead emotionally barren lives of a certain type. I think they've had to harden themselves in many ways to the bleakness of life as bw due to their associating with mostly vampiric DBR males or no males. When a woman doesn't associate with males at all, that also takes a chunk out of a woman emotionally, in many cases. Most of this emotional stinginess on the part of black mothers, IMO, is due to their reality of not having had male partners who appreciated and gave to them as valuable, lovable, deserving, desirable women.

When this has gone on for a while, the women become hollowed out in ways and are unable to give to their daughters because they dare not hope for anything better for their daughters. I think they've just accepted life for what it appears to be, to them."


Yes, but this raises another question. How come they are able to ignore all this (their pain, suffering, loneliness, anger, etc), when it comes to loving and protecting their sons. If they are able to pick and choose when their "issues" are going to stop them from behaving properly, then can we really see them as victims of their poor environment/childhood?

Unknown said...

Evia says:

I would say that at least 98% of these mothers don't know any better. If they knew any better, they wouldn't live such depleted lives themselves. It's next to impossible to have knowledge and then not use it in your own life.

For sure, none of the black mothers I know who fit this profile HAVE the knowledge to help themselves or their daughters. They know they've made mistakes, but they don't know how to successfully advise their daughters to navigate around those those same mistakes. Bw have been discouraged from critically thinking or thinking outside the box. So, even if their lives depended on it, they wouldn't know how to do it. They don't know "what works."

So based on my experiences, observations, and vantage point, the overwhelming majority of black mothers are not "deliberately" withholding from their daughters in order to sabotage them. This also depends on how anyone interprets "deliberate. Most AA and similar bw have been indoctrinated to believe in "black love," be the "wind beneath a bm's wings" and in varying degrees to protect black boys from de evil white system and be loyal to bm. Some of y'all may be saying these mothers pass this indoctrination program on to their daughters and I definitely agree. This is what's happening in most cases, but I also realize that a small percent of mothers (in general) are actually pathological or have severe emotional disturbance.

What I encountered a lot in my work were black mothers who were lonely, scared, in lots of emotional pain, distrustful, and used their children as a big part of their social and support system, or for "friends" or used their sons for protection or "the man of the house."

I don't believe that mothers (of any group) can socialize male children successfully in most cases to be productive men or the type of men most women want as mates, so I also don't see where most of these mothers are giving the "goodies" to their sons. If so, their sons wouldn't be such sorry specimens of adult manhood. IMO, mothers damage their sons when they coddle them or label 8-year old boys as men and then berate them when they don't behave like men.

I also think that if you're in pain because of what your moms didn't give you, you should get some help. Don't allow your mother's deficits to rob you of your best life possible.

Unknown said...

Evia says:

I had a conference with an almost-50 year old bw the other day on the phone. She said she's been reading my articles and those of Halima and Khadija for years and she's so thankful that she came across our sites because she has received the "education" she wished she'd gotten as a young woman. And she's now trying her best to play catch-up.

But what almost made me cry was when she said she's shared some of what we write with her 80-year old mother and her mother is now hooked on our philosophy. LOL! She said her mother is NOW making some life-changing decisions in her 80-year old life based on what we write!!

This is a prime example of what I mean about so many bw lacking uplifting knowledge. But when they do stumble across the sheer common sense of what we write, it cannot be ignored even though some will pretend they're ignoring it. LOL! In fact, many of our detractors, disruptors, and would-be saboteurs comb through what we write and use as much of it as they can, but will try to discourage other bw from using it.

JaliliMaster said...

"Long-term readers like you should’ve been the ones to set the record straight. Instead of letting the lies stand. And in your case, only bothering to participate to question folks about why they took the time to set the record straight"


By the time I came on the post, there were already 28 comments, most of them either from that poster, or folks correcting her lies. There wasn't anything else I could add that would have convinced her, that others had not already said, with actual links. Truthfully, I see these sort of corrections as more for the benefit of the newcomers lurking on such sites than for the actual poster (in this case, FemmeNoir), who was pretending to be confused. If I encounter people spreading lies about BWE, I would correct them; I wasn't condemning folks for doing that. I just felt that she seemed to have a reply to everything and kept on repeating her lies over and over again, even after she had been proven wrong. I thought, mistakenly, that no one else noticed what she was really trying to do. My bad.

Faith said...

Looks like I missed a good debate. The mother/daughter dynamic is a touchy subject for me personally because realizing you may have been either an instrument of or a victim of such sabotage whether it's "intentional" or through defect is still traumatic. Especially when applying principles related to self-actualization.

A lot of informed and aware black women are still focused on Blackistan and black male behavior and nothing anyone else says, does or leads by example will persuade them to leave their dead end course.

I'm glad the issue of whether the legit BWE messaging covered this was addressed and I've also noticed how there's been a shift in what I term BW-backpedaling by many readers of the BWE blogs and some of those related to doing BW advocacy.

I see it in the continued interactions these women participate in with those who've been exposed as BWE frauds. I see it in the same recycled conversations. I see it in the lack of crucial analysis and the lack of research in reading archived posts.

We each have our own paths to walk and may not always choose the one that's strictly defined in a certain way. Black women want to belong even if it means compromising in certain ways that ultimately undermine the execution of and the core BWE message, but MOST were not going to follow that path to completion anyway.

The focus must continue with ways of reaching younger girls and offering some salve to the onslaught of negativity and mediocrity, but ultimately the hope is that more women will understand and choose more life-affirming positions and act accordingly, albeit imperfectly.

The less catching up a woman has to do, the better. The antidote could be mass-produced tomorrow and most would still choose death instead of walking away.

We can just continue to offer insights, monitor situations before they get out of control and live well as we can on our end. The cotton-candy flavored poison seems to be preferred method of oblivion instead of the combination of cold reality and aggressive action (including the much-needed self-reflection into influences and motivations).

ak said...

I most certainly am not a BW who wants to belong probably because I never 'belonged' for acting 'too white' in the first place. So after a certain age you stop caring about belonging to the point of total dysfunction like a teen dealing with peer pressure. I love BWE's message because it's the most truthful place for BW to me virtually or otherwise. Everything else is a blatant lie. There's something very oppressive about being in all-black company most of the time with a few exceptions and I'd encourage BW to leave any circle including family behind if it gets as comfortable and welcoming as a boa constrictor.

JaliliMaster said...

I think my last comment went missing so I'll try to repost it.

Evia said: "This is a prime example of what I mean about so many bw lacking uplifting knowledge. But when they do stumble across the sheer common sense of what we write, it cannot be ignored even though some will pretend they're ignoring it. LOL! In fact, many of our detractors, disruptors, and would-be saboteurs comb through what we write and use as much of it as they can, but will try to discourage other bw from using it."



These are the type of folks that I just don't get. It's one thing if it is bm doing it because they are trying to protect their golden egg (bw mules), or bw who completely or mostly disagree with the actual premise of BWE, or bw who know it's right but think they can't do anything for themselves so want to prevent other bw from leaving them behind.

It is the kind that you describe that really baffle me. It's like escaping from a burning building than barricading the doors behind you to stop others from leaving; or jumping off a sinking ship into a life raft then destroying all the other life rafts; or being in a group of starving people, and after happening on a feast, you eat to your satisfaction and then destroy the rest of the food before any other starving person finds it. Really, what is in it for them? I don't understand it at all.

Hearing all these stories of folks and what they went through, I thank God everyday for my parents, particularly my Mummy. A lot of the stuff they tell you growing up, one just ignores it and think they know everything and their parents know nothing. Then you grow up and realise they were right all along.

Even my Dad, bless him, who has a knack for saying things just to be controversial, the guy has given me quite a few gems of wisdom. That's probably why I took to BWE so easily when I first came across it (I was in my late teens when I first visited Evia's site so many years ago, from a link on a black entertainment/gossip website no less). BWE is just common sense, but it seems so out there to many people because the majority of black folks haven't been exposed to any real common sense in their life, so it is completely alien to them!

ak said...

To be perfectly honest with you, I thoik that Khadija was right on the money with her first comment regarding alot of black mothers and the way they view and treat their daughters. The coddling foolishness of BM and black boys by BW is the situation that BW chose to stick with and continue and until BWE websites finally shed some light on the touchy matter.

Now if black mothers want their daughters to wallow in the same crappy mistakes of lifestyle that they have so that they have 'some company' what better definition of hatred can one receive especially while at the same time black mothers treat their sons several times better?

On Black Women Deserve Better's site a BW commenter said she saw on the TV news that a BM who raped her when she was a chlid was found shot and dead and she jumped up and rejoiced and she said her mother was standing right by her and that her mother slapped her for rejoicinf at her rapist's comeuppance! These discussions and revelations I'm telling you are just the tip of the iceberg. There IS real hate & jealousy in this dynamic.