Monday, January 18, 2010

DBR is a good term as any!

(Warning: If you have a weak stomach, you might like to skip this one!)

I know some folks are pushing to have the word DBR expunged from the growing ‘something new’ movement vocabulary. I say we keep it and for good reason.

I don’t know about you all, but I am a ‘sesame street’ kid. I grew up on a regular diet of snuffuluphagus (sp), and big bird and Ernie and side kick, Bird. I thank God for Sesame Street, which entertained and made learning such a pleasure. I particularly liked how they would focus on a word or a number, and by the end of the program, they would have sung and joked the word into your subconscious lol!

There is one cartoon clip I remember till today. A bird flying in mid air and the word Pelegro being announced and flagged up as it passed. And there is this Spanish female voice in the background expanding on the word. Now Spanish speakers know that the word pelegro means 'danger'. Basically the bird was being admonished to be careful and ‘watch its step’ (or watch its flight to be exact). In the end, the bird crashes into a big ‘Pelegro’ sign, and gets stars swirling round its head!

Now why this story? Well essentially I am trying to say here that words are tools. They are useful for conferring a necessary posture of caution on individuals towards other people, situations and things. A road sign saying ‘Danger Bison ahead’, requires a necessary response which involves taking the foot of the Gas and keeping eyes peeled and on the road to navigate safely. Imagine how potentially fatal it could be if the sign was not present. What would happen if the ‘wet floor sign’ was not up at your local diners as you dashed in for a quick take out!

Words and comments can be descriptive enabling us to identify and thus neutralise the effect of a ‘hostile’. Without these concept-words, we are left without necessary ‘guard-up’ and open to untold danger.

In the same vein words like DBR are necessary descriptive words, to ensure bw adjust their mindframe at such a time as this, when they need to slip into ‘self-preservation’ mode, what with all the predators lining up to misuse bw, knowing full well that the BC does not exact any penalty if they do, but will even move to excuse and defend their actions and blame the victim for their fate! We know who they are, but before now, we were not allowed to name them by a name and thus, put together an effective plan against their activities.

The BC has done a great-good job of disabling even removing the ability of black women to be self-protecting in their interactions with BM. As far as the community is concerned there are no bm who might be deliberate in their misuse of bw, or who are happy to capitalise on the precarious situtaion of bw marginalised by race and gender, and definitely no bm who take advantage of bw devotion and desperation to uplift their community, to leave bw with a disproportionate responsibility for holding things together. No, these men dont exist to the BC according to them, bm are just misunderstood and of course forced to do what they do by 'de evil wm'.

The obsolete and downright dangerous code of ‘a brother is a brother regardless’, and ‘we have to lift up a brother,’ will continue to lead sisters into desperate situations where they will open themselves up to those who will abuse their goodwill. We must, identify and protect ourselves from such 'hostiles', thinking with our emotions and feeling 'squeemish' about hurting folks emotions will make the situation linger.

As people have also noted here, the language of endearment continues to be used in our community and by labelling a person ‘a brother’ (or sister) regardless of their actions, we facilitate the opening of our emotions up to psychopaths who would love nothing better than to capitalise on lowered guards and our endless grace’ and mercy'.

Since there is no effective systems within the race to isolate and neutralise ‘hostiles’, bw are left with no choice but to put together their own strategy and acknowledging that there is something called a DBR in the Bcommunity is first step to doing just this!

As I have said before, you don’t need to use it if your emotions can’t handle it, especially if you have been fed the steady diet of ‘no black person is irredeemable’. Some of us still need more time (and maybe more knocks) before we do what is necessary. Some might even have a better term, so feel free to drop it from your vocabulary, but please don’t prevent us using this word that adequately describes the situation we find that confronts us. I am an optimist like every other person out there but I will never claim that we can rehabilitate everyone for the community, that is sheer lunacy because some folks enjoy the rewards of being renegades and eschewing all forms of decent acceptable behaviour!

Bw need an even more robust vocabulary to map their unique situation in the scheme of things, the standard dictionary and terms dont quite suit our narrative. We need even more words to reflect and detail our reality, we need a lexicon going, so bw can map out their situation and have an effective strategy to counter acts of aggression against their persons decisively! Being lily-livered will not serve us at this point bw need to 'man-up' for what needs to be done and stop letting emotions get in the way!


We want to create a portrait of the bw and the forces arrayed against her, lets get busy, coming up with words and concepts which effectively explains and gets to the heart of the situation bw face black women, more effectively than the standard discourses written from all sorts of other perspectives.

We have to restore bw ability to self-protect admist deleterious doctrines of 'a brother is a brother no matter what'! We need to render ineffectiove any message that a black man deserves endless chances regardless of their actions towards bw or notions that it is bw duty to put up with such behaviour and this is preferable than seeking out decent men be they non-black or not.

I will add that, some men might be damaged but not beyond repair (but you might like to still keep away), and for sure there exist DBR outside the community as well!

A few more concepts/words for the 'something new' lexicon


DBR

Race to the bottom – The doctrine that black women should be willing to date down even to the ninth degree, to ensure that they achieve a bm.

Black Male protectionism – The tendency of the BC to deem the rescue of the 'endangered' bm as priority, and put this before everything else including necessary justice for the victims of bm.

Mammy ideology lol!

Keep hope alive doctrine- Hoping against all reason/reality that a black prince will eventually show up at the end of the day.

2-1 = 2 doctrine -Regardless of how many bm are missing from the dating pool, (due to incarceration, gang related deaths, lack of employement etc), 'There are always enough bm out there to be had by all bw'. lol!

'Hug a Thug' lol!-It is bw moral duty to open her heart to DBR in order to rehabilitate such men and this is more honorable than choosing a decent non-black man.

BW love Thugs doctrine– The doctrine that bw choose to date thugs and a refusal to acknowledge that with 1/3 of bm going of to jail (the closest definition we have as to what constitutes a thug) at any point in time, restricting to BM would condemn bw to dating thugs, at least 1/3 of the time lol!

I guess i have to rephrase this point: Given that anything of up to a third of BM qualify as 'Thugs' (having passed through the criminal justice system at some point), the issue is no longer about 'BW loving Thugs', but about bw having to 'make do', with thugs if they want to restrict themselves to dating BM!

More to follow….

The E book is now available!
E-Book

197 comments:

Amazing said...

I agree with you 100%. These men are out there. I see them every day and even know a couple. These men have criminal records, little or no respect for themselves or women, they lack motivation, or any motivation they have is geared towards rapping or playing ball, and giving money to their numerous baby mammas so they won't file for child support. These men will tell you, "A real woman stands by her man through thick and then." These men love a woman with her own place because their mom won't allow them to have company. These are the same men who do not want a wife but I wifey. I refuse to date a DBR man of any race. But as a Black woman, the Black community will have you believing your sole purpose on earth is to serve ANY Black Man under any circumstance. I refuse.

gatamala said...

a teeny minor thing: peligro is the word for danger. ;)

I like the 2-1=2. I won't even discuss that with people anymore.

****
Note the recurring "bonnie & clyde" ride or die chick themes in music and movies.

I watched a doc on women in prison a while back. One of the points they make about women is that most of their crimes involve them as accessories after the fact (e.g. hiding the gun) for their significant others. Running around with DBR men will damage you too.

****
The ties to the criminal justice system are severe. Years ago I did staffing. The prime jobs for uneducated people were at Duke U and its hospital. Duke required a clean criminal background check to clean toilets and mop up blood and feces. The VAST MAJORITY (I wish I had the stats) of males could not pass the background test. Duke wouldn't even accept charges that were dismissed. Often the guys would come to the interview HIGH! Don't get me started on wage garnishments.

It is imperative to stress education for poor and working class women so that they can take care of themselves NOW and their children.

Disclaimer: the criminal justice system is racist. You know it, I know it - so why go there in the first place??? Any such remedy is a long-term process. Women need to feed kids now.

Let Love Rule said...

Ok Halima, let's be fair now. A third of bm are not in prison.

A third of bm have been throught the criminal justice system. A bit of a difference.

I love the little "dictionary" you gave.

I believe in the power of words and the importance of clear definitions. What are we really describing. I think it's males who really don't know how to be men, often struggling with pain and hurt, and unable to overcome the obstacles in their lives through discipline and self esteem.

How about manliness unknown (MUK) or fully grown boy (FGB) or
lost soul to avoid (LSA).

Or maybe leave males out of it all together and just give a warning like. Honey step back (HSG) or Run for your life (RYL).

Miriam said...

I'm lovin it!

How about the "You think you white bw" = the black kid /girl who wears her hair natural because she's proud but then gets accused by the bc of acting "white". go figure.

GoldenAh said...

I hate cutting and pasting, but what's talked about at this site is pretty much covered in this article. I linked to it below.
...
by Heather Mac Donald
24 September 2007

To be sure, black incarceration rates are off the charts. Black men were 41 percent of the more than 2 million men in federal, state, and local prisons at midyear 2006. At the end of 2005, there were 3,145 prison inmates per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared with 1,244 inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 471 inmates per 100,000 white males.

Is that because violent and property crime is overpenalized, as race advocates sometimes argue? No. Despite the advocates’ constant complaints about three-strikes laws, the criminal justice system actually underpenalizes crime because of inadequate prison space.
...
In fact, the purpose of such mass celebrations—and that is indeed what they are—is to make sure that attention stays far away from the actual problems holding blacks back.

...

No one wallowing in Jena promotion has had the courage to speak about an even more important crisis, the breakdown of marriage. The nearly 70 percent national illegitimacy rate for blacks—a number that can approach 90 percent in inner cities—is a cataclysm.

Its consequences go far beyond the harm to individual black children—especially boys—who grow up without fathers. The real poison of the marriage crisis is the message it sends to young men about personal responsibility.

The first duty in civil society is toward one’s own children; everything else is built around it.

But when boys are raised without any expectations that they will have to support their children and marry the mother of those children, they fail to learn the most basic lesson about responsibility.


The Jena Dodge ... truths of black social breakdown.

Let Love Rule said...

Juanita Bynum on GMA tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

http://www.cssny.org/pubs/urbanagenda/2007_02_22.html

"An estimated 16.6 percent of Black men nationally are current or former state or federal prisoners"

So how did 16.6% turn into 1/3?

And even if this 1/3 number was true, why is it that 2/3 of black women are chasing after the thuggish 1/3?

Anonymous said...

Hamlia, you and Evia are geniuses!

Brenda said...

Language is powerful. As an exercise try this. Do a search on marriage vows. Pick one you like. The traditional ones have stood the test of time so they are good to use in this case.

Read them, I mean really study them. If the man you are with or are thinking about being with cannot measure up to that then keep moving. It is a good yard stick to measure a potential partner against.

My husband and I did this prior to our marriage and we can say they we believed what we vowed to each outer and had no doubt that each of us was going to fulfill each word that we pledged to each other. After five years of marriage we can still say our vows word for word. Why because we refer back to them.

Black Women deserve the serenity and security that a good marriage can bring. Children deserve no less.

Good men are looking for the same thing and want to bring this to a relationship. They want this for any children they bring into the world.

Good men do not have to be "rehabbed" by their women to come to that conclusion.

Damaged men have to "rehab" themselves if they want a place at the table with a woman who will to give her all. (Lord knows Black Women have and do give their all.)

So when using language let us not forget their power to identify the positive and well as the negative. As women we should also be looking at what we are striving for and look to words that identify those things.

Daphne said...

With respect, anonymous @ 2:29, that same article has the following statement:

Consider the implications of these points when one in three Black men with only a high school diploma will go to prison before the age of 40.

One in three is equivalent to one-third, no? Also, the article referenced by goldenah seems to contradict the 16.6% you referenced.

As for why black women supposedly pursue this third of "thugs," I didn't think anyone was saying that all 2/3rds were. For those that do, I think some of the reasons have been explained at length on this blog and other blogs, so it seems a little redundant to ask.

In addition, I never assumed DBR = thug. A thug can be DBR, but so can a well-dressed, wealthy man with an Ivy League education. Kind of like how a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square. I think, lol.

That said, it is up to black women to make better choices. We can either wallow in unnecessary misery, or change our worldview and move forward. At the end of the day, we dictate how someone treats us or what we tolerate. I know what choice I made a long time ago. Hopefully, with discourse such as this and open minds, other women will make better choices for themselves (and their children, if applicable).

Janice said...

I think it sucks the conversation always drifts back to dbr on these blogs. It's always about them, who commits crime against whom and so on so forth. Not all black men suck and not all white men are gold. I'm just looking for an opportunity to walk on both sides of the lawn to figure out what is what. I think you should start an advice column cause a lot of us (ok just me) are clueless. Anything is better than talking about the suckers.

lovelychick said...

Janice,
I think there is always someone(a troll) who will try to stir up trouble to get the focus of the importance of these blogs; which is to focus on BW making smart decisions with whom they chose to enter in a relationship with. Whether that person be white, black, asian, latino, indian, etc. But I guess in doing so you must mention DBR men of all races, but there is always one person, sometimes more(trolls) who try to make it seem it is only about black men.

I think what Evia, Halmia, Aimee and others are trying to relay to BW, is that there is nothing wrong with seeking love or companionship with a man of another race. And also that BW should not put up with any man's mess and BW should want more for themselves. Sadly, the majority of the time, the men treating BW like nothing more than a piece of meat, are black. And with the help of the BC, black women are made to think that they are supposed to take what is dished out to them without a word.
That is where these blogs come in to deprogram the way some black women think. And some are naturally attracted to men of different races; that's where the lovely success stories of BW/WM or non-bm play a huge role(love those heart-warming stories!).

Oh, and I most definitely agree there should be an advice column directed to BW who need help in dating areas! I am in GREAT need!

Brenda said...

I agree with you Janice. We have come to the conclusion that to many Black men are lacking and that Black women should expand their options when it comes to dating and marriage partners. There are only so many good men to go around.

Lets talk about what make for a good partner. What are the qualities that a Woman should be looking for.

So many of our Black women have grown up in homes with out a positive male role model. The absence of the Black male in the home has had a damaging effect on young Black males and females, however the Black community consistently focuses on the effect of the father's absence on the males. The absence of the Black male in the home has been devastating to many Black females in that she never sees what a health male/female relationship is and never see marriage healthy or otherwise.

To often the "streets" and the media fills the vacuum. You would think that the Church would fill that void however as has been stated more than once the Black Church is more interested in salvaging the Black male at the expense of the Black Women.

pioneervalleywoman said...

Janice,

Halima's book says a lot about "what is what," along with some of her earlier posts.

Brenda,

So when using language let us not forget their power to identify the positive and well as the negative. As women we should also be looking at what we are striving for and look to words that identify those things.

My reply:

Exactly! For the individual women who is thinking, rather than spend so much time talking about what they don't want, focus upon they need in the men they let into their lives, and the qualities of "a good man" have nothing to do with race!

For women who are thinking and considering their options, it is about the men one is surrounded by, the ones women meet or are attracted to, whether they have the qualities that match up.

If one has had a certain type of experience with a certain type of man, try something different, in a way which might improve the situation!

Make an effort to consider men of a different personality type, background, race, etc., in ways that are conducive to one's needs and interests.

I'm thinking here of that saying, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, thinking each time around, things will be different..."

pioneervalleywoman said...

Some books that address this phenomenon of why women might make bad choices:

Whatever Happened to Daddy's Little Girl? The Impact of Fatherlessness on Black Women.

Saving Beauty from the Beast: How to Protect your Daughter from an Unhealthy Relationship.

Anonymous said...

One in three is equivalent to one-third, no?

As was stated, this is a prediction of how many black men will be have records at some point in their lives based on current trends. As for what is actually the current case, roughly 84% of black men have NO criminal records.

Also, the article referenced by goldenah seems to contradict the 16.6% you referenced.

No it doesn't. It said, "At the end of 2005, there were 3,145 prison inmates per 100,000 black males in the United States". 3,145 is only 3% of 100,000. That article actually more than supports the 16.6% figure.

I didn't think anyone was saying that all 2/3rds were.

I think that this is what the person who made the statement is saying. I don't know if this true, but I do feel that a disproportionate number of black women are attracted to thugs.

Anonymous said...

lovelychick said...
Janice,
I think there is always someone(a troll) who will try to stir up trouble to get the focus of the importance of these blogs


I think that Janice was talking about Halima's topic of today's blog, which focuses almost entirely on dbr-bm. It sort of gives validity to the notion that all we really want to do on this blog is talk about black men.

Shirl said...

It crushes me that so many black Americans would turn a blind eye to all the relationship mistakes black men and women make! Black women (mothers, sisters, daughters): Have high expectations for black men (sons, brothers, fathers) and maybe they'll actually meet those expectations! Stop accepting mediocrity and START finding it disturbing that a black man has lots of babies with lots of women. Start finding it weird that he doesn't want to commit to you. Start finding it sad and disturbing that this guy didn't finish high school and didn't even get his GED! And, yes, you might be called a gold-digger. But, ask that guy what his plans are. What does he want out of life? What does he do for a living?

PS: Two pop tunes that irk me to no end: Kanye West and his "golddigger" song. When he starts singing about how this woman has him for "18 years" because she had a baby by him....ever heard of a condom Kanye?!?

And that song by Destiny's Child: Soldier. I hate the song and the video. You don't need a soldier. You need a man who will pull up his baggy pants, get a shirt that fits, throw out the grills, and get a real life! Too bad Destiny's child couldn't feature REAL soldiers in that video (either in the military serving our country) or they could show successful, gorgeous black men in film, tv, business, etc. Instead they show these fake baby-thugs showing off their six-pack abs, etc. I seriously hope Destiny's Child was kidding when they did that video.

Shirl said...

I have been attracted to white men since I can remember. So, my marriage to a white man had zero to do with DBR black men.

I do find the conversation interesting because I"ve always wondered why so many black women I've known have been so strident in their loyalty when it may bring so much pain. So, I guess the DBR conversation may serve as a wake up call for them.

roslynholcomb said...

I do advice on my blog, and on another blog as well. If you don't want your question posted, just ask me to keep it private. Keep in mind, I don't sugarcoat. I'm blunt and direct, but I've been told I give good advice. And I agree, all this talk about black men is both counter-productive an pointless. The conversation isn't, and shouldn't be about them. When are we going to buy an effing clue and realize the only person we control is ourselves?

Miriam said...

Roslyn! I didn't know you give advice on the blog. that is interesting to know about your blog.

Hey everyone -let's keep our hopes up...my sister is talking w/ an Ethiopian guy. (said with a brooklyn accent:) A good Jewish boy from Ethiopia. lolol I'm rooting for her.

Let Love Rule said...

"According to the Sentencing Project, nearly one in three (32%) black men between the ages of 20 and 29 were under criminal justice control in 1995."

http://www.cjcj.org/pubs/poor/pp.html

" Some 33 percent of the black American male population between twenty and twenty-nine years of age were either in prison or jail, or on probation or parole."

http://law.jrank.org/pages/12131/Race-Ethnicity-Incarceration-minorities.html

"Closer studies reveal that in inner cities across the country, more than half of all black men still do not finish high school" And
"By their mid-30's, 6 in 10 black men who had dropped out of school had spent time in prison. "
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0320-06.htm

All of this is to say that the incarceration rate depends on the age group, location, and graduation status. In many of our cities a significant number of men have been incarcerated. And lets not forget that records can be expunged, especially for young convicts.

Evia says : said...

Thank You, Halima. You are definitely back on fire with this post!! I'm so glad you're fully up and running again. Do things in moderation so you won't bottom out. Ya hear?

Anyway, another acronym to be included is: ATBU which means: "arrangement to be used" which is the type of arrangement that many sistas are involved in this morning with men--whether they know it or not.

I agree. We need to be TOTALLY unapologetic about this situation because we're talking about a matter of life, death, and blighted lives for generations--for many black women and their children. So why are we in defense mode? We should instead be going FULL STEAM on the offense? After all, they say that "a good offense is the best defense."

Lest anyone think we don't care about black boy children, I need to point out that many of the children of bw ARE boys. So, as we try to uplift black females, we're ALSO trying to carve out a better future for millions of black boys who don't have emotionally and and/or financially involved or fully functioning fathers in their lives or fathers who can be good role models. The best thing a mother can do for a son is to give him a loving and involved dad who's a good role model.

I was determined for my children to have a fully functioning father, one who would be a good role model, so I only allowed loving, loveable, suitable, and compatible men into my life who could SHOW me that they could and would fit this bill.

I believe in the power of words and the importance of clear definitions.

Words do construct reality. If you don't have the words to describe your reality, then for all practical purposes, it doesn't exist. I coined the term "damaged beyound repair" after reading the book by Haki Madubuti (Black Men: Single, Dangerous, Obsolete). Haki is an AA man, a black nationalist.

What are we really describing. I think it's males who really don't know how to be men, often struggling with pain and hurt, and unable to overcome the obstacles in their lives through discipline and self esteem.

These are men or--adult males--who have been "defeated by the challenges of life." Should we call them the DCLs instead of DBRs? (smh) I don't know why we have to use every word in the English language 5 billion times to describe these men when we can capsulize this in 3 words: damaged beyond repair. These men are in ALL groups.

The last time I checked, these DBRs weren't having any mercy on bw and/or black children.

A bw or actually ANY woman should AVOID all men like this and look ONLY towards the majority of men in the world who are not DBRs who have not been defeated by the challenges of life.<.b> Why would any sensible woman select out the men who have been defeated by the challenges of life when she can instead have a mate who is able to be a loving partner and father and do all that those roles entail?

So yes, we need to focus on teaching bw how to properly evaluate men of all backgrounds and I do this a lot with my blog. Actually, I could write endlessly about that topic alone. LOL!

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

I'm loving....RYL (run for your life)!!!!!

Thanks for that ;-)

Anonymous said...

I also don't think you all deal with cultural differences between Blacks and non-Blacks. I would say your blogs are geared toward the 50-60% of Black women who are educated, can communicate properly, carry themselves well. I would not advise a White or Asian man to be in a relationship with a woman who is hyper-aggressive and not that bright and also may be trying to get over on non-Black men. I am a Black woman and I see these women all the time, its really depressing.

I guess they are the female equivalent of DBR's.

Evia says : said...

Okay, Everyone--PLEASE, let's ignore this TROLL @2:59.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

lovelychick said...
Janice,
I think there is always someone(a troll) who will try to stir up trouble to get the focus of the importance of these blogs

I think that Janice was talking about Halima's topic of today's blog, which focuses almost entirely on dbr-bm. It sort of gives validity to the notion that all we really want to do on this blog is talk about black men.


The topic of today's blog is how a very commonly victimized group (BW) can empower themselves and avoid being prey. This requires that they recognize their most common predator (DBRBM) as just that--predators, and the single greatest threat to their well-being and continued existence. As long as this clear and present danger is out there, it doesn't make sense to "stop talking about them," as if all you have to do is start dating other men to make yourself safe. Dating and marrying well is an important step to improving your life, but BW as a group are the preferred prey for DBRBM, even if we aren't sexually available to them. Look at how many DBRBM stalk this blog, desparate to disrupt any conversation, regardless of subject. Even when we point blank don't want them, they won't leave us alone, so we have to be just as aware as any other BW on how to protect ourselves from them. Halima is just trying to educate BW about a continuing threat to their survival, just as a mother gazelle educates her young about jackals and other predators.

Anonymous said...

Hey,

I am not a troll. Its just something I have been thinking reading these blogs. That what you are advocating ignores cultural differences in some Blacks and non-blacks. I just notice a lot of the women here are very acclimated to white culture, typically college educated. That is only 10-15% of Black women. It just seems naive to think that looking toward IR is going to somehow change some of the pathology that exists amongst a large segment of Black women. They are not children, they do make choices.

For example I was on another blog and there was an article about a woman who took her daughter on a bus to fight a bully and stood there goading her to fight. Well the responses to the article were astonishing, Black woman after Black woman saying that they supported her taking her daughter onto a school bus to participate in a violent brawl and that their parents taught them the same thing. I was shocked and it just reminded me of how my whole life I felt just a little out of touch with parts of the Black community because of the tolerance of this type of behavior.

I may be totally off base with what your are proposing here but again I think its naive to not address the cultural differences.

Evia says : said...

Another tactic used by some elements of the DBRs to keep bw apart from non-bm is to warn the non-bm--especially white or other white-skinned man--that the bw is going to take advantage of him. LOL!

For ex. I was walking hand in hand with my husband one day in a large urban area and these homeless black men were lounging and talking with each other on a bench up ahead of us. As we got closer, they got very still and quiet. I knew at that point that they had seen us, and that something might happen. As we walked past them, one of them started yelling to my husband over and over, "She just wantcha for your money! She just after ya money!"

My husband just dismisses this kind of stuff--because he knows the pathology behind it. This might, however, be an issue that sistas who are new to IR dating might need to address with a white man or other non-bm--that some folks out there are going to try to poison his mind against bw. (smh) I've actually read some pretty foul stuff they say about bw--anything and everything to try to make bw less desireable to other men--to make it that much harder for bw to "escape."

Those DBRs and their supporters need to know that their efforts motivate me and other bw like me--to be even more determined to get sistas out of the boxes.

That being said, sistas please keep excelling in every area of life, and read books on mastering the art of flirting. Those flirting tips will creep into your behavior and be there when you need them. If you can make a man feel good to be alive around you, he'll keep coming back for more of you and I'm not talking about sex here.

Also, pls keep referring bw to our blogs because the more sistas who are confronted with this common sense info, the more you can help them and also create more support out there for yourself.

Pamela said...

The church I attend does not deal a lot with relationship issues. HOWEVER for some reason the past week the Bible teacher has felt he needed to tell the unmarried ladies about being careful who they get with. He has spoken three times and in each message he has spent a few minutes on this topic. He has also mentioned at each service how he respected the caliber of the single women there. This was the first time that I had attended a service where single women were not the cause of all ills. His favorite line is to not fall for someone because they initially treat you nice. He basically said for us not to settle for 'any old Joe'. I guess he does not believe that women are to fix men up:) I plan to ask him tonight what made him decide to do this now.

I know a young gal right now that moved from her aunt's house to get her own place. Her aunt knows that it is so one of her two baby daddies can have more access to her. He has been the one pressing her to get her own place. He fathered another child that is a month older that this gal's. She is 21 years old and refuses to listen to anyone. I think he is 23 years old. People have tried to talk to him but at this point he has not listened. The gal's older hot-headed brother had to threaten him to keep him away from her. He rarely comes around other than to give her very little to help with their son.

Somehow the basic ideals of what a good, healthy relationship looks like needs to be communicated. Many young people (and older ones like myself) are online. The marriage vow is a good plumbline in choosing someone to spend the rest of your life with for sure.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 4:38pm wrote, "I just notice a lot of the women here are very acclimated to white culture, typically college educated. That is only 10-15% of Black women. It just seems naive to think that looking toward IR is going to somehow change some of the pathology that exists amongst a large segment of Black women. They are not children, they do make choices."

--------------------------

Um, when someone doesn't know that they have options, there is no choice presented for that person to make. Generally, when another person is ignorant of facts, they can learn, be taught, or remain ignorant. That is one of the things that (I believe) this blog is trying to do. If you truly believe that there is no hope or resolution for some women who remain in nonproductive relationships, then that is what you believe. I, for one, do not. Any person can achieve self-worth.

SheCodes said...

Hey guys,

I came back from the Congressional Hearing on the negative and steretypical portrayals of black women.

It was a HOT MESS. It really drove home to me that the DBR mentality really does exist. We had rapper David Banner on there, who was PROUD of the denigration of women in his music, and amazingly wealthy rich white men who were equally proud.

They were put under the hot seat of scrutiny by several congressmen and congresswomen about the impact of their music on black youth, and didn't even break a sweat.

THEY ARE AT PEACE with destroying the black woman's image. There is no moral tension going on in their hearts, and it was plain to see.

That's when it crystallized in my heart: I am watching someone who is Damaged Beyond Repair. No moral argument will be received or entertained by them. However, any of those men (both black and white men) would have no problem using me sexually.

That is the definition of DBR. They are real, they are working against me, and they are not going anywhere.

I'm planning to talk more about this in my upcoming blog.

Trvlrgrl said...

janice said
I think it sucks the conversation always drifts back to dbr on these blogs. It's always about them, who commits crime against whom and so on so forth. Not all black men suck and not all white men are gold. I'm just looking for an opportunity to walk on both sides of the lawn to figure out what is what.


Amen Janice! I've been one of those crusading for expunging DBR from our lexicon precisely because it does not move us forward...it's a derogatory term that's less about educating women and more about labeling certain types of black men.

I think some of us feel empowered when we can throw off a term like this when in fact IMO it demonstrates just how much we are attached to our woundedness and to what ever is going on with black men .

Yes, most of us have stories to tell about some trifling black man or the lack of support from the black community, but bonding around our pain and anger will only get us so far and it's like the proverbial tar baby...the more you hit at it the more stuck you get...

arthur said...

Shecodes said: ... No moral argument will be received or entertained by them ... they are real, they are working against me, and they are not going anywhere.

You understand everything. If they were not without moral scruple, they would not be where they are. The exploitation of black women and black culture is making their corporation money, and as long the money is there the exploitation will continue.

There's no way to talk to them; same for congress (except congress cares about money and votes).

The way to stop them is to hurt them financially; boycott their products, scare off their advertisers, things like that. If that can be done, they'll come to Jesus in a heartbeat.

Let Love Rule said...

a bit of a ramble...

I think it's important to describe what kind of man to avoid and have a term for him.

On the other hand, I like the idea that some women have that we should be stating our desires in an affirmative way. So how about your ideal mate(YIM) or the ideal mate (TIM). I like TIM because it sounds like a real name.

So then when speaking of those that are not TIM, we can just say not TIM. But then apart of me thinks that their should be an emphasis on what to avoid as well, because apparently too many women are making bad choices. and saying osomeone is not your ideal mate doesn't quite grab the attention as saying some one is damaged beyond repair.

Anonymous said...

Evia said: "Another tactic used by some elements of the DBRs to keep bw apart from non-bm is to warn the non-bm--especially white or other white-skinned man--that the bw is going to take advantage of him. LOL!"

This is so damn true. I see and hear this all the time. Many times this "advice" from DBR to non-black men comes unsolicited and from a different angle. Like when a DBR men will launch into a diatribe against bw and all the reasons why he (as a bm) doesn't date them (bw).

I agree that the conversation continually reverting to bm/dbr men, etc., is a bit exasperating, but to some extent it does serve a purpose. There is a growing contingent of bw who are becoming more and more dissatified, disgusted, angry and feeling used, abused and confused. They look around and the see themselves aging, raising kids alone, being disrespected, taken for granted and cast aside for "whiter pastures" as soon as Tyrone gets a degree, a professional sports contract or a decent paying job with benefits. They are all feeling the crunch and seeing no way out.

These bw don't know that there are other choices because for centuries they have been told that they are too x,y and z and not enough a,b and c to attract, date and marry a non-black men. They have been told all their lives that only bm want them, understand them and that the non-black men will only use and abuse them for sex and good times and throw them aside when done with them. Meanwhile, the greatest culprit of using, abusing bw for sex, money, support etc., has been the bm that were said to love them the most.

Places like Halima and Evia's sites are much like de-programming centers for the brainwashed. Because that is exactly what has happened to bw, they have been brainwashed. These two sites marshall evidence aimed at proving that the black community (much like a cult) deceived and manipulated bw. The deprogramming involves information and logical analysis of alleged contradictions between words and deeds of the black community and in particular, dbr bm and their agents as it relates to bw.

For those women who have already accepted these premises, these repeated posts about bm seems repetitive and stagnant. But it seems like we are trying to do 2 things here: (1)deprogram brainwashed bw women who don't know they are even brainwashed and (2) support and give relationship guidance to those who have already been deprogrammed.

It is hard to equally serve two masters. Frankly, I think it is really really important to try to point out to all those poor brainwashed masses that the emperor has holes in his underwear. That there is another way. That you are beautiful, desirable and worthy of so much more then you are getting. I pray that more and more bw finally say ENOUGH!! I am pleased to see that more and more bw are starting to think this way.

I just hope that the movement doesn't lose momentum with the whole Jena 6 thing. That issue is noteworthy, but again it focuses on bm. What is another slap in the face is the fact that a bw and her daughter were held hostage and repeatedly rape over the course of hours and days in a black community, allegedly by a group of bm and no one is marching to stem violence against bw. Just another day in the hood I guess. Sad but true.

-Prettyislandgirl

Ms CPA said...

Halima, your message is right on and I love the glossary. The anti-DBR movement is just another variation of tired crap like "bm are too embattled by de evil wm to be criticized by bw." That way of thinking may have been justified in olden days but slavery and Jim Crow are long DEAD so there is no longer any need for us to deal with half a man, quarter man or anything less. We are moving on.

Anonymous said...

For those who haven't, please come over and vote for your preferred day for the bookstore meetups on Classical one's blog. The poll closes in 20 hours from the time of this post.

lovelychick said...

I, in no way, was trying to say completely avoid talking about DBRbm. You have to be self-aware about your surroundings and the people in them. I can clearly see what the title says so I have a faint idea of what the comments are going to be about. I was not implying that the subject should be avoided, because it is important. If that's how you perceived it, maybe I should've word it in a different way.

I grew up with an amazing father who was and still is always there for us. He was the only man in the house! (4 girls and a wife, that poor man!) My whole family consists of strong bm, which I know comes from their home-teachings. I always say that it all starts at home, so when I see DBRbm; I DON'T think they were taught that way, I DO think that is was a LACK of teaching.
So I agree with Evia when she says we as bw, who have black sons (or young black men in your family), that we(and the men they are aroungd) should teach them how to treat a woman. So that when they grow up and get ready to start dating, they know how to treat all women with the respect they deserve.

g-e-m2001 said...

Welcome back Halima, I was worried about where you had gone off to

lovelychick said...

**typo** around

Shecodes: Dear Lord, that is beyond sad! To actually defend the misrepresentation of not only bw, but all women is just appalling! But that is the world we live in. Do they actually think about how the words the say, and how it effects the thought process of bm's minds! The should've asked David Banner how would he feel if a bm referred to his daughter the way he refers to other bw. That's really upsetting!

JJ said...

trvlrgrl has it right--again.

I don't get why all the focus is on Black men.

I don't get why it's so hard to see why the DBR label is problematic.

I don't believe that legions of black women are so STUPID and INCAPABLE of choosing a good man that there is a need to create a very problematic and offensive term to describe these "horrible" men.

I DO beleive that for too long (for various reasons) that too many Black women think that the only man for them would be a black one.

I DO think b/c of that desire that , even in the face of plently of evidence ohterwise, Black women compete with each other to catch that GBM or accept any BM that comes their way.

I DO feel there is unnecessary pressure on BW to marry Black for various reasons.

I THOUGHT the point of these blogs was to show BW they have other options, do build up their self esteem, and for those who don't know teach them how to choose a GOOD man. Regardless of race.

But it just seems to have devolved into Black men are bad and the Horros of the Black community.

SMH

Focusing on the negative never moves you forward. Yes, they need to be talked about but not adnauseum.

Many of the IR blogs seem to border on "why Black folks are bad, evil and should be steered clear of" or "Why all things white are alright."

Instead of "How to uplift Black women and find a loving caring man of any race" or "Womanist/Feminist how to give black women the tools to uplift their lives and combat negative sterotypes from within and without"

Hmm-hmm.

it just doesn't seem right.

Leigh said...

Halima great post. Terminology and language are key concepts. They can not be overlooked. It is crucial to have a common language especially when we are trying to evolve minds. I under no circumstances believe that the DBR terminology should be abolished. For those of you who do not like the terminology, then I suggest the following.

1. Teach self respect, integrity, humanity, dignity, service ,and care for all.

2. Teach good social skills, manners, and appropriate communication

3. Teach budgeting, goal setting, and objectivity

4. Teach conflict resolution , anger management, moral reasoning and ethics.

5. Teach negotiating skills and coping skills especially in terms of relationship management

6. Teach diversity and tolerance

Every day I work with students to develop pro- social skills and strong character. Perhaps these DBR's did not learn this and maybe they need to go back to school. As a trained school psychologist, former social worker and therapist, we stress the importance of early intervention.
If each and every one of us took the time to teach these expectations, I believe that the next generation could have fewer DBR’s.

SheCodes said...

Let Love Rule,

I actually like the term 'The Ideal Mate' aka TIM. It is just as important to have language that denotes the positive as well as the negative.

Additionally, I'd like to stress that some of us (like myself) are very open to dating men of all races, including TIMbm.

TruBLKM said...

And at the end of the day...more black women choose black men over other non-black men. Its great. I love that fact.

Now this is what I like to see: the women here proven wrong. Here you go: http://www.blacksingles.com/success_stories.html?s=15
Guess they arent in that 70% huh? LOL

pioneervalleywoman said...

What is so great about sites like Halima's, Evia's and Aimee's, Foreverloyal, Musings of a Diva, Live From Israel, etc., is that black women are entering into these great conversations throughout the world, finding commonalities, lending support, sharing information, getting advice, and exploring all their options in so many ways that it is fascinating!

Ozexile said...

Hello All-
Just browsing through your conversation as I occasionally do when I saw Shecodes's photograph, and was stopped in my tracks...
Good God. You are gorgeous. My breath was actually taken away. I can't believe you are single.

Anyway, carry on...

Anonymous said...

I agree with the others who focus on encouraging wise healthy behavior in BW and attracting TIM of any race.

It is not psychologically healthy to put so much thought and emotion on something you do not want.

Be aware of danger enough to be able to protect yourself, but don't wallow in anger and fear.

People are at various stages of maturity. With time, maybe we can see the futility of blaming others and start concentrating on ourselves and what we do.

Evia says : said...

Additionally, I'd like to stress that some of us (like myself) are very open to dating men of all races, including TIMbm.

I agree that this is a smart strategy. I think that black women should be receptive to ALL men in the global village, as I've said thousands of times. At the end of the day, I would suppose that most women are seeking the most loving, loveable, suitable, and compatible man they can find within a certain time frame. If that man happens to be white, as in the case of some of our husbands, then so be it.

It's interesting that when bw say they're receptive to loving a suitable "commitment-minded" wm, some bm automatically conclude they're excluded. Numerous bw are equally receptive to suitable, "commitment minded" bm. I would strongly advise a commitment-oriented bw not to spend more than a minute with ANY man who is not commitment-minded and I'm NEVER going to deviate from that position because I know how I and my children have tremendously benefitted from my committed relationships with my husbands (both of them). I'm not saying that's the only reality, but this has been and is my reality. I have a largely stress-less, comfortable life due to the fact that I chose men who could and would help me to reach that goal for myself and our children.

Also, it's common sense that any woman is more likely to find many more suitable men if she fishes in an ocean rather than in a pond.

As far as wallowing in anger when using the DBR term, I think different people impose their own interpretation on this term and "think" that everyone else interprets it the same way. I think I do this myself. For ex., when I use that term, I use it to warn black girls and bw that there is danger in their social environment, just as I would warn someone that there may be poisonous snakes in an area or a dangerous intersection in town. I don't hate or wallow emotionally in the idea that there are harmful men in the envrionment, but I've DEFINITELY tried to stay away from them AND hopefully people appreciate this warning. Some people don't know about poisonous or dangerous elements in their environment. So I don't see any harm in warning them. That's it.

My greatest surprise about this DBR thing is that a lot of bm think their name is being called, and I think that is an issue that THEY need to reflect on. I don't consider that my issue or the issue of other bw at all.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 4:38pm wrote
"I just notice a lot of the women here are very acclimated to white culture, typically college educated. That is only 10-15% of Black women. It just seems naive to think that looking toward IR is going to somehow change some of the pathology that exists amongst a large segment of Black women. They are not children, they do make choices."

You make a good point here. What many fail to acknowledge is that those bw who are most open to dating wm are the the ones who have had significant interaction with white society, developed interests most common to whites, and are more educated. A major portion of black women fall under the category, for lack of a better term, of 'around the way girls' and such females are highly unlikely to be very open to dating white men. It has very little to do with social pressure or ignorance of options and more to do with black men being their comfort zone.

Relationships go far beyond a man's socio-economic circumstances and desire to commit. There are the elements of attraction and what one is generally comfortable with. All too often, I have seen black women embrace damaged black men showing little interest in less or non-damaged black men who were interested in them. Despite the problems that they go through with these damaged men, these women find pleasure with the general social interactions with them.

One interesting thing I've noticed is that during discussions regarding black women and the notion that they like thugs, many black women express that they like what they refer to as "reformed thugs". These bloggers and commenters are examples of this mentality:

http://nsaneleesane.blogspot.com/2006/05/lauren-londonnsaneleesane-king.html

First comment-"I can tell immediately how lame you are. For me, too soft is, after I give you my number, you call every day. “I want to take you to dinner. You’re the future!” Dude, you don’t even know me. You’ve known me for two weeks and you love me? I don’t get that. That kind of rush job might freak me out at 21. I’m not ready for marriage!"

Response-"I can tell a lame when I see one as well. I can't stand lames, however, I don't want my man to have a rap sheet, but I would expect him to have some problems with the law at one point, got out of the trouble, unscathed, and learn from that experience to not make a career of it. I more so want a "reformed thug". He's been there, done that, but can see the bigger picture and can relate to and educate the younger generation that that's not the route to take.
I definitely don't want a man I can tell what to do and he does it, all the time. Where's the challenge in that?


and

http://www.blackplanet.com/users/BABYGIRL420/canvas/view_canvas.html

"My ideal man...OK get ready to laugh...I want a reformed Thug. Someone that has done the street thing, hung out all night, went to the clubs, got down with his boys when he had to, and is now ready to settle down and start a solid foundation with a solid female."

Below is from a black woman claiming to be working on her PhD:

http://www.blackwebportal.com/nuforums/vm.cfm?StartRow=161&Forum=24&Topic=2356

"For the record WE like reformed thugs/ruffnecks. This is the guy that is VERSATILE. He is able to be professional and socially acceptable but when need be he is able to be ruff, rugged and raw."

http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1634541&postcount=11

"A thug can be a good thing. There are a lot of reformed thugs, but still got that thuggish ruggish bone in them, my husband is one of those."

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=68799652

"personality wise, i like reformed thugs. guys who are educated and working, but still got some street in them. guys who can work a 9 to 5 but still knock a ni**a out if he try me. guys who are intelligent as hell, but still down to earth. he must like hip-hop and he must like nas (i'm not playing. i don't date guys who don't like nas)."

Trvlrgrl said...

JJ said
Many of the IR blogs seem to border on "why Black folks are bad, evil and should be steered clear of" or "Why all things white are alright."

Instead of "How to uplift Black women and find a loving caring man of any race"


JJ...I hear you . Honestly I have wondered if some of these posts were from trolling white supremacists posing as black women because some have been so blatantly racist (I can recall one that suggested that black men were being annihilated and that wasn't such a bad thing...that's downright creepy).

I'm also wondering it's harder to create a sense of community around something positive rather then our shared understanding and experiences of dealing with sorry men. There's just a lot more emotional "charge" around the things that annoy or anger us, so maybe that's why there's so much discussion about them and their sorry ways.

That said, I don't think we'll reach some general agreement about the term "DBR", but thanks Halima for starting this dialog. I think I might adopt the TIM and not TIM labels...

Let Love Rule said...

Anonymous said ... "It has very little to do with social pressure or ignorance of options and more to do with black men being their comfort zone."

And that's the whole point of these blogs. To help women expand their comfort zones.

Evia says : said...

There's just a lot more emotional "charge" around the things that annoy or anger us, so maybe that's why there's so much discussion about them and their sorry ways.

I agree. I think it's only natural that ALL people tend to become angry or annoyed about elements in their environment that might be harmful or dangerous. I guess I don't understand why bw should be any different. It's the same reason that black folks tend to talk about racism much more than white people do (according to research). It's because black people are usually harmed or threatened by racism and whites are usually not. Therefore black folks tend to be angered and annoyed about racism and talk about it a LOT more.

For ex., I'm sure you've heard about how some white people can't understand why black people don't just focus on the positives in American society, and forget about negative things like racism. LOL! They wonder why black folks just keep harping about it. See, it's the same thing. If you don't feel you can avoid something harmful, it tends to annoy or anger you and you continue to talk about it.

I think some bw don't feel they can avoid the DBRs. When I first started blogging and sistas kept talking about these men who had done them wrong, or were in their environment, I had to really wonder why it was that these women didn't just cross these men off their dating/mating list totally and completely and avoid them like the plague. However, from reading a ton of the comments, I realized that some sistas simply can't recognize these men beforehand because they've kinda sorta been taught to be blind and excuse the harm they inflict or can't physically get away from them.

So for some who think we should stop talking about DBRs and talk only about TIMs, it would be interesting to observe reactions if white people were to say to them, "Stop talking about racism or the way things are and think instead about the way you want them to be!" LOL!

That might be great advice, but I wonder about the reaction to it.

Halima said...

Attraction to 'bad boys' is a universal female trait, not something exclusive to bw or something bw do more than any other group.

http://www.sideroad.com/Relationships/why-women-like-bad-boy.html

however with bw there is an added complication of having more than 30% of bm being 'thugs' or adopting a 'thug' lifestyle, so i repeat, the issue is no longer about bw preferring thugs but having to make do with thugs if they desire to date only bm.

Trvlrgrl said...

Evia said
So for some who think we should stop talking about DBRs and talk only about TIMs, it would be interesting to observe reactions if white people were to say to them, "Stop talking about racism or the way things are and think instead about the way you want them to be!" LOL!


Good point...but I'm taking a different tack. My biggest beef is with the term DBR and less so with moaning about black men (although personally I can deal with only so much of that). To me, the term is problematic...I posted a bit on this on Aimee's site so I won't repeat.

Can I ask question? Why do people like the term DBR? Why not ND... Not Datable or NMM Not Marriage Material...acheives the objective but with out the derisiveness.

gatamala said...

anon -

I see what you're saying, the mentality is there for some. I just think it's overblown.

However, you can't seriously entertain a site called "prisontalk"!

Trvlrgrl said...

oops...I meant not dateable...need to do more spell checking

Halima said...

Trvlg i dont recall you suggesting the term ND etc in the past, or did you? i am asking this in the nicest possible way.

besides this, i am a bit worried when bw get all jittery about being definte in their pronouncements around bm and their activities. because i am aware of the strong tendency among bw to move into 'bm protectionism', mode whenever bm come into the picture!

i do not see the term damaged beyond repair as derisive, i see it as an adequate description of what is going on for and with these men. but i can see how someone who is still 'bm protecting' or who is still 'reverential' towards bm would get all bothered about such a term!

if we bw cannot call what ails us by the best descriptive term then we will continue to be tied to the problematic situation.

the crucial issue here i think isnt protecting the feelings of bm, its articulating our reality without fear or favour!

Anonymous said...

Here are statistics regarding all British men. Britain is about 90% white:

http://www.freeforessays.com/show_essay/Miscellaneous-A-32560.html

it has been found that one quarter of British men will have a criminal record by the age of twenty-four and a staggering one third of British men will have a criminal record by the age of thirty.

http://www.smith-institute.org.uk/pdfs/social-justice_criminal-justice.pdf

A substantial number of citizens will be offenders at some point in their lives. About
33% of men will have a criminal record by 30.


http://environment.uwe.ac.uk/commsafe/why.asp

It is a shocking statistic that one third of all males will have a criminal record by the age of 30.

So are British white men thugs on the level of American black men?

pinkydj said...

Again, I ask the question:

Anon person with the stats defending bm, can you enlighten me as to why you continue to read and comment on this blog ?

I am 100% serious in asking the question.

I truly don't understand what you have to gain by participating in these conversations, if as you have said, you don't care what we do etc. This is but one bfm IR site and only one of many sites on the net that says unflattering things about the different kinds of black male behavior. Do you go to other sites as well to defend black men or is it just this site ? Also, in the big scheme of things, do you feel that your comments here help your cause in defending black men, and if so, explicitly how ?

I don't spend my time trying to "defend" the honor of black women on black men's IR sites or Tired Black Man..I think it's called. I know those forums are not in my best interest and the individuals there have their minds made up and it would be a waste of my time to subject myself to their points of view.

So again I ask, why do you come here ?

pinky

Trvlrgrl said...

Hey Halima,

Nope, haven't suggested ND or NMM before because I hadn't thought of it...

And respectfully, my objection to DBR isn't about protecting black men...I think the term fits in the category of hate language pure and simple and I would protest it if we applied it to any group of folks.


And I would turn this argument on its head...in my experience those who attack the most are attached the most. In other words, I really wonder just how "over" black men many of the women on this board are if they are still so angry and are still attacking them.

BMs just don't hold that emotional charge for me because I'm don't really care what they as a group are doing, thinking, or saying...I'm just looking for a good partner regardless of race.

Evia says : said...

...but I'm taking a different tack. My biggest beef is with the term DBR and less so with moaning about black men (although personally I can deal with only so much of that). To me, the term is problematic

Trvlgrl, when I'm talking about DBRs, I'm talking about ALL of the DBRs--not just black ones--though I realize that the vast majority of the DBRs for a bw are bm. However, this will not soon be the case as bw mix and mingle fluidly and it isn't the case in some enclaves even now. There are also white and Hispanic DBRs and we see them on the various shows on TV, if not in our surroundings. Maybe this is why I don't get "emotionally" invested in this term as you seem to do. It's an objective label to me. I have male cousins who are DBRs and I have male cousins who are TIMS. I believe that women should totally avoid my DBR male cousins. They are who they are. No amount of compassion for them is going to make them change.

Can I ask question? Why do people like the term DBR? Why not ND... Not Datable or NMM Not Marriage Material...acheives the objective but with out the derisiveness.

You seem to be extremely concerned about what you call a "derisive" tone which I guess you feel is hurting the feelings of these men? LOL! Do you really understand the magnitude of this situation--the impact it's having on millions of black people?

I believe that much of this info that we drop on these blogs is actually saving lives!! These blogs are actually bw freedom trains. Even if many of these sistas never date a non-bm, some of what they're getting here will keep them safe from DBRbm. So if I need to hurt someone's feelings in order to save lives, prevent misery for generations to come, and/or free bw, I don't mind hurting the feelings of the DBRs--AT ALL.

Also, no matter what term you use, the reaction will remain the same because they will know what your intent is. It's our "intent" that scares them and causes them to fight us, not the term. If you use "ND" for Not Dateable, they and their supporters are still going to push you up against the wall to force you to explain why this segment of bm are ND's or NOT Marriageable or whatever. Then, what are you going to say? You're still going to come back to point out their DBR behaviors.

And remember, we're ONLY talking about DBR men--not ALL men.

I guess I'm just a more blunt person, especially when it comes to life and death issues. That's not a time to sugarcoat words. I think we should WANT them to know that we know who they are and that we know that they're out there, and that we don't want them near the women we love.

Whereas I can appreciate your compassionate stance, I just don't see why anyone would care about hurting their feelings.

Anonymous said...

Attraction to 'bad boys' is a universal female trait

True.

not something exclusive to bw or something bw do more than any other group.

False.

Clarice said...

For what it is worth DBR is stronger it states that this person is so severly damaged that nothing a human being can do will change them and therefore they are to be avoided. Do not pass go do not collect 200$.

They cannot be fixed no matter how long or how hard or how often others try because they have to see there is a problem, own the problem and their role in it and want to do something to fix or change the problem of self destructive - self defeatist behavior, and own that fact that regardless of who assists them along the way the problem and the solution is theirs to initate and see through completion. No if ands or buts and no more chances. DBR is a warning label (Danger, Danger)

ND implies they are just not date worthy i.e. sponge worthy for the Sienfelders in the bunch - but they can change and appears to encourage women to "help and/or nuture" on the chance they can change.

TIM focuses on the qualities that are desired or required ;)and shifts the focus away from the DBR, i.e. the TIM or TIP (The Ideal Partner) acts responsibly, and treats women and all people with respect.

V/r

Clarice

Halima said...

Trvlrgrl said...
Hey Halima,

Nope, haven't suggested ND or NMM before because I hadn't thought of it...

And respectfully, my objection to DBR isn't about protecting black men...I think the term fits in the category of hate language pure and simple and I would protest it if we applied it to any group of folks.


And I would turn this argument on its head...in my experience those who attack the most are attached the most. In other words, I really wonder just how "over" black men many of the women on this board are if they are still so angry and are still attacking them.

BMs just don't hold that emotional charge for me because I'm don't really care what they as a group are doing, thinking, or saying...I'm just looking for a good partner regardless of race.



TravelG i am willing to accept that we part fundamentally on this issue, now the issue is, are you willing to accept this and do your thing while other do theirs?

Trvlrgrl said...

Halima said
TravelG i am willing to accept that we part fundamentally on this issue, now the issue is, are you willing to accept this and do your thing while other do theirs?


Absolutely. You posted a blog on this so I assumed you wanted comments. Thank goodness we're not all in lock step...but I do find it interesting that everyone is so concerned about their right to say whatever they want but this post from you definitely sounds like you want me to sit down and shut up...which is absolutely your prerogative

Halima said...

Trvl

you have made your position clear and i have mine (as indeed i have detailed in the post).

repeating yourself wont change the position, you are simply nagging!

i am prepared to be mature and accept diverse opinions, i wonder if you are?

Anonymous said...

I have to disagree with the notion that that "thug love" is not particularly common among African American women (not familiar with how black women in other countries view this). Read this story on page #155 here in Eric Dyson's book and you will be reading a story that is quite commonly experienced by black men in America:

http://books.google.com/books?id=EERrU8KBmGcC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=%22black+women%22+thugs&source=web&ots=tyQzxXerKM&sig=JKC5k2FfbC-C12iekimFxsVSXhw

Evia says : said...

Read this story on page #155 here in Eric Dyson's book and you will be reading a story that is quite commonly experienced by black men in America:

But we're mostly concerned here with BLACK WOMEN in America!! I hope no one goes to read this.

Anon, who posted this, why don't you leave your e-mail address so that anyone who wants to discuss this with you can do so.

And to those sistas who keep asking why these trolls won't leave us alone, you're not going to get the real answer. The real answer is that they're trying to get us back to focusing on bm ONLY. So they'll continue to come here or whereever any bw is widening her focus.

pinkydj said...

I realize that the anon "visitor" enjoys engaging in the battle of the stats; battle being the operative word.

Trust me, my question was answered long ago..lol.

pinky

Anonymous said...

But we're mostly concerned here with BLACK WOMEN in America!! I hope no one goes to read this.

Uh, the whole write-up is about black women and makes a very important social point regarding avoiding DBR-BM. VERY IMPORTANT. What are you afraid of? Do you really want to see the plight of black women improved or are you more concerned with your own personal agenda?

Miriam said...

Hi all,

Coming into this a bit late but....

I think Pretty Island Girl hit it right on the nail. We are dealing with lots of people at different stages.

I know that when I was IN THE HOUSE of a DBR bm. that term, or worse, fit the bill. I needed to repeated call him something like that to help myself realize, he's not a good person.

After leaving the situation, then I had to validate myself over and over because I had a lot of doubts. (whatever)

When I was really ready for marriage, the past was a bit farther behind me. And, I could even be cordial with mr. DBR bm.

Now, a family later, I didn't even think about the past, until I joined this wonderful blog!

I think depending on where you are in life, the 'right' words will come out. So, I vote for all those words: DBR, NMM, whatever -it just reflects where YOU are. But-- but let the woman who just climbing out of the hole have her DBR word, if she needs it.

Also, I agree with Oze., Shecodes, you are gorgeous!!! LOLOLOL

And, something else but I forgot it. will post later. :0)

Anonymous said...

But we're mostly concerned here with BLACK WOMEN in America!!

But black men are the center of this particular topic that Halima has posted.

Anonymous said...

http://books.google.com/books?id=EERrU8KBmGcC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=%22black+women%22+thugs&source=web&ots=tyQzxXerKM&sig=JKC5k2FfbC-C12iekimFxsVSXhw

Do you think that this is typical?

Evia says : said...

Uh, the whole write-up is about black women and makes a very important social point regarding avoiding DBR-BM. VERY IMPORTANT. What are you afraid of? Do you really want to see the plight of black women improved or are you more concerned with your own personal agenda?

I don't want to go back and forth with you. Anyone can connect any topic to any other topic because most things are connected in some way.

Also, I don't know which Anon you are or are you all the same one? LOL! Whew!

I agree with Halima's position that a typical black enclave is populated by a high percentage of thuglike men. I won't mention a percentage because that will start up the "war of the stats." If virtually all the men that a black girl sees are ones exhibiting thug or DBR traits, then this becomes the norm for her. Also, if no one points out to these young females that these men are DBRs or thugs and therefore off-limits, as if usually the case, then what do we expect? DUH!

I don't get why this is so difficult for anyone to understand or why it's even being debated.

Evia says : said...

Uh, the whole write-up is about black women and makes a very important social point regarding avoiding DBR-BM. VERY IMPORTANT. What are you afraid of? Do you really want to see the plight of black women improved or are you more concerned with your own personal agenda?

I don't want to go back and forth with you. Anyone can connect any topic to any other topic because most things are connected in some way.

Also, I don't know which Anon you are or are you all the same one? LOL! Whew!

I agree with Halima's position that a typical black enclave is populated by a high percentage of thuglike men. I won't mention a percentage because that will start up the "war of the stats." If virtually all the men that a black girl sees are ones exhibiting thug or DBR traits, then this becomes the norm for her. Also, if no one points out to these young females that these men are DBRs or thugs and therefore off-limits, as if usually the case, then what do we expect? DUH!

I don't get why this is so difficult for anyone to understand or why it's even being debated.

Halima said...

Evia and pinky

the sad thing is that there are many blogs set up by bw who are begging for bm to have dialogue with them.

these are women who have vowed that it is bm forever, and they really want to work with bm on sorting out the relationship problems in the BC, but guess what these guys do? yep they step right over these women to come to blogs were bw are ready for something new! lol!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

I have to disagree with the notion that that "thug love" is not particularly common among African American women (not familiar with how black women in other countries view this). Read this story on page #155 here in Eric Dyson's book and you will be reading a story that is quite commonly experienced by black men in America

Why? The primary romantic interest of the women here is non-black men. Whatever you're going through with hordes of thug-lovin' black women, you hardly have to worry about encountering here.

Evia says : said...

I think depending on where you are in life, the 'right' words will come out. So, I vote for all those words: DBR, NMM, whatever -it just reflects where YOU are. But-- but let the woman who just climbing out of the hole have her DBR word, if she needs it.

Very insightful, Miriam!!

And now I've got to go over to the black enclave near me where a huge portion of the men are DBRs our Unsuitables or whatever. (sigh)

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

The primary romantic interest of the women here is non-black men.

I thought that the primary romantic interests of the women here are non-DBR men.


Non-DBR, non-black men--or perhaps the dateawhiteguy part wasn't enough of a tip off for you?

Anonymous said...

perhaps the dateawhiteguy part wasn't enough of a tip off for you?

So there is no interest in non-white guys here?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

So there is no interest in non-white guys here?


There's no interest in YOU.

Sharon Cullars said...

Halima, I agree we have to know the snakes out there, and I personally have no problem labeling them as such. Nailah Franklin, the young pharmaceutical rep, was a beautiful, intelligent woman. And yet it seems that she settled for a DBR man (we don't know the race yet, nor does it matter). She paid with her life. Now please tell me why someone with so much going for her would be involved with a man with a criminal background, who had escaped a federal facility in 2001, and who had two orders of protection from an ex-wife and ex-girlfriend? Who knows, maybe she was just among the brainwashed many who didn't know she had choices other than those presented to her.

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/2007/09/27/breaking-news-nailah-franklin-missing-pharmaceutical-rep/

Anonymous said...

You "Ladies" are a bunch of insecure, classist, racists. This website should be called 'Date a guy who more than likely has more money' Why not date an Asian guy, Hispanic Guy, Native-American, Indian Guy? I'll tell you why not because then you'd have to confront you're own insecurities and motives: status and money. Maybe if you avoid the mirror you can avoid that you're still a black woman. A beautiful black woman, even if you marry a white guy and try to have the the lightest babies possible. LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Let Love Rule said...

Trvlrgrl said...
Why do people like the term DBR? Why not ND... Not Datable or NMM Not Marriage Material...acheives the objective but with out the derisiveness.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wow this conversation has really taken off.

Trvlrgirl, I think you make some interesting arguments , especially on Aimee's blog. I understand your concern that in a way we might be feeding stereotypes. But I don't think that's what's happening.

With a 70% singleness rate and rampant OOW births, we need to look long and hard at the choices that some women are making. Women's lives are being destroyed.

SO I think it's very important that we NAME the qualities of the men who will destroy lives. And I don't think just saying not the right man for you, or ideal mate is good enough. Ladies need to understand that these men are DANGEROUS AND UNFIXABLE by them.


The term DBR IS DERISIVE as in scornful because we are describing men who should be scorned and avoided. The men and their actions are EVIL and harmful to bw. If a disturb person runs naked down the street (in this society) we call them SICK. If a person commits a crime, we call them a criminal. If a man through his actions is intent on abusing you and destroying your life (and his own) we call them DAMAGED beyond repair.

As for the stereotypes and racism, these things have been around for a long time. We're not feeding anything. For bw to step out of the shadows and for once say I have been done wrong and I'm not going to take this s*** anymore is a powerful and neccassary step to solving some of the conditions many bw find themselves in today.

Perhaps you're blessed enough to be free from running into some of these DBRM. Perhaps you have never had an experience with this kind of man before. But many women have, and I think they have a right to their anger. Because believe me, unexpressed anger, and being silenced is just as deadly as taking a dose of poisen everyday.

SO I'm happy to see these forums which allow women to have a space to express their feelings, dark and light.


And Miriam, thank you for the story.

AS FOR Troll, I am in rehab at Troll Feeders Anonymous. SO

I will ignore the trolls. I will not feed them. And they will starve and wither away. I will ignore the trolls. I will not feed them. And they will starve and wither away...

dottie said...

It's kind of hard not to feed these trolls. Somehow, you just keep getting tired of your face turning blue and your fingers/hands going numb over trying to debate with them. Just let 'em be.

They're just crying for attention.

Sandra said...

Here's a good motivation for not feeding trolls - just remember that they are the DBR's that we are being admonished not to date or "engage" with in any way. When you engage with a troll, you are doing exactly what we're being warned not to do - i.e., not to get involved with DBR's. So just think of not feeding the trolls as good practise for the life practise of not engaging with DBR's. Think about it that way, and the troll will lose his or her power - you will not feel anger or that burning need to respond to the troll or even debunk the lies he or she tells. You will not care squat about that troll. That troll will not set your agenda, any more than you would allow a DBR to set your agenda.

Anonymous said...

I love the term DBR! Kudos Evia and Hamlia!

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

So there is no interest in non-white guys here?


There's no interest in YOU.



LOL! This reminds of "Tootsie," when Dustin Hoffman is turned down for a role, and they tell him "we want someone taller," and he said "I can be taller." Then they said "we really want shorter," and then he said "I can be shorter." Then they finally said "we want somebody ELSE." Po' thang . . .

Anonymous said...

Just because a man is black does not mean he is DBR and because he's white he's not DBR. You people are a riot. It's like you think that if you date white men exclusively, bash and make sweeping generalizations about black men and black women that date black men, that you're better than other black people. You're the exception and just as long as you keep bashing you hope no one in your world notice you're black and you hate yourself. You ALL are sick, sorry and so sad. Love and hate just don't go together.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I love the term DBR! Kudos Evia and Hamlia!


This is one of those white racists mentioned above who pretend to be black women.

Anonymous said...

prisontalk

funny how the same person missed all the white women with black husbands and boyfriends on that site

and once again black women would be well served to ignore talking about black men. focus on yourself. how can you help someone when you can't care for yourself.

black women are more prone to aggressive breast cancers. imagine all the brain power used to obsess and defend black men used to solve that problem or develop ways to make black women's lives more comfortable.

the one thing that could equalize many black women's lives is thinking and making moves to improve their lives. everybody else makes sure to get their piece f the pie but black women are so accomodating making sure that every body else is served first then crying in a corner over their shrunken emaciated share.

SheCodes said...

ozexile,

Thanks for the compliment (blushing)... you just made my day!!

Sharon Cullars said...

I'm seeing a sort of deliberate dyslexia going on with the acronym DBR, in that some are taking the B in DBR as though it stood for "Black" as opposed to "Beyond."

Again, for the thousandth time, DBR does not refer only to black men or women but for any male (or female) of any race whose agenda is to use, abuse, discard, disparage, and harm, in this case, black women and girls. These damaged souls will also do harm to young black boys growing up, to elderly men who can't protect themselves, or any segment of society who are vulnerable.

Anonymous said...

SheCodes is very pretty. Unfortunately, Evia will call me DBR since I gave her that compliment and she is not dark nor of strong West African features.

Halima said...

I want to repost something that i posted on aimees blog which is so important to this discussion!

Pamela
I think it needs to be made clear why the term DBR is used in the first place. BW are told that we are to support bm no matter what. In many instances we are told that we are the ones that can 'help them become better men'.


Pamela, this comment is so key like you would never believe...!

it is so necessary at this point to have a 'word-tool' that will counter the indoctrination of 'dont give up on a brotha' which is killing bw in their dozens! Bw have internalised this doctrine, as a result they hang on in there when anyone in their right minds would have made for the hills long ago.

the term DBR was coined to free bw from the idea that they had to continue working with a brotha idefinitely and to bring home to them the fact that some men are not going to be 'reconstructable'.

People who hate the term should ask themselves if they really think bw are of enough value to be freed from the dangerous often lethal doctrine of 'never give up on a brotha'.

Halima said...

hey sharron welcome and hows the writing going!

Halima said...

Shecodes is an looker, her we say PHWOAR!

i wanted tp mention it the 1st time i saw the picture but missed the moment (damn trolls!) lol!

JJ said...

Sorry to see trvlgrl run off. It seems folk tire of dissent but not of the "Amen" corner.

And why is it when folk disagree on many of the IR blogs one is ultimately acussed of:

A. Protecting Black Men
B. Still in a Mammy mindset
C. Not taking the current crisis in the Black community

Did it ever occur that omeone might simply disagree with the merits of the issue?

Not all dissent is shrouded in some attempt to "save" the black man and "harm" the black woman.

Some of us don't worry so much about trifling men of ANY ethnicity and focus more on how to find and keep the GOOD men out there.

Male bashing isn't anymore attractive then female bashing.

JJ said...

that should read:

Not taking the current crisis in the Black community seriously

Let Love Rule said...

http://in.movies.yahoo.com/070926/139/6l88y.html

Wednesday September 26, 06:00 PM Halle Berry hires security guards after racist threats to baby

London, Sept 26 (ANI): Expecting mum Halle Berry has hired security guard after she received racist threats to harm her unborn baby.
....

The actress got anonymous letters that said her baby would be 'cut into hundreds of pieces'....

A source close to the Oscar winner said that Berry doesn't hire security, but after the threats she has roped in two guards.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Folks we have to call this what it is . Dangerous and damaged.

The fact is as many women have already said there are men with violent inclinations who have problems with bw having love on their on terms. Sometimes these damaged men insert themselves into of our lives. Not to recognize it and call it what it is IS a form of protectionism.

Halima said...

JJ said...
Sorry to see trvlgrl run off. It seems folk tire of dissent but not of the "Amen" corner.

And why is it when folk disagree on many of the IR blogs one is ultimately acussed of:

A. Protecting Black Men
B. Still in a Mammy mindset
C. Not taking the current crisis in the Black community

Did it ever occur that omeone might simply disagree with the merits of the issue?

Not all dissent is shrouded in some attempt to "save" the black man and "harm" the black woman.

Some of us don't worry so much about trifling men of ANY ethnicity and focus more on how to find and keep the GOOD men out there.

Male bashing isn't anymore attractive then female bashing.


i have no problem with people having different opinion, but make your point and then move on, stop nagging, it doesnt change the position i and a few others want to take on this issue!

we all dont have to 'abide under one roof' on our ideology. diversity of view points is indeed a beautiful thing and instaed of constantly 'dissenting' on a particular blog kindly set up your own and develope your own ideological framework.

indeed, there are almost five strands of feminism; maxist, radical, liberal, in the same way you can maturely 'splinter off' at any point you want to, instead of nagging folks to see it your way!

if you feel that this is the point you have a fundamental difference with this blog please feel free to set up your own and send us a link, we will direct those who prefer to see it your way to you!

Miriam said...

hey all, you can hear SheCodes at what about our daughters talk radio. Neat things we can do these days.

We are making our own media. great!!!

Miriam said...

oh! I'm all the way in Israel. I wish I could participate in things. I hope you all listen to the show. Sad. so few bw participating.

okay enough on that from me. lol.

Miriam said...

OK one last comment sorry. Also Tracy is on there. Hey, all you guys! So nice to hear a voice. lol.

Evia says : said...

SheCodes is very pretty. Unfortunately, Evia will call me DBR since I gave her that compliment and she is not dark nor of strong West African features.

I realize this is a dimwit who is trying to divide and conquer here by causing dissension, disruption, etc.,with this very elementary, transparent, and pathetic attempt to cause SheCodes to get pissed at me for possibly devaluing her looks. However, I think from reading Shecodes comments here that she's a lot sharper than that.

Anyway, I'm going to do some educating here and I'm always thankful for these openings. LOL!

1. I have never said that light-skinned, brownskinned or a sista of any other skin shade is not beautiful. We ALL have our beauty, but many sistas--a large proportion of whom are dark-skinned with stereotypic West African features are DISCRIMINATED against by our very own "brothas" (ha!) when it comes to dating and mating. This is just a FACT and we know it. Bw are NOT blind.

Many "brothas" use "de evil wm" defense when they're called out about their discriminatory ways and claim that de evil white man taught them to think like that and they obviously follow those racist teachings like lemmmings!!

Now honestly, sistas, would any of y'all want to marry and have children by a weakminded bm like this? After all, if de evil wm (the puppetmaster) can manipulate da po bm (puppet) to this extent, then as I asked before, why should I be with a puppet when I can be with the puppetmaster?

Definitely EVERYBODY in the western world KNOWS by now that the more so-called "black" features a black woman has, the less likely she is to be chosen to lie around a typical, prominent bm's swimming pool, and y'all know I'm not just talking about that pool.

2. The looks of the woman that an influential bm chooses as his mate is a very accurate indicator of who other men in his group find beautiful or appealing--whether this man is AA, Caribbean, African, etc. The BIG difference between an influential bm and a po bm in this regard is that the influential bm CAN CHOOSE who he wants from a wide variety of women, whereas the po bm or less influential one has much less choice and I believe that these less influential men will tend not to be with their first choice of women. There are exceptions.

I would love it if someone researched the complexions/phenotypes of the wives or significant others of influential (wealth, celebrity, education, politics, etc.)black men who are under 40 and provide the pictures of these women. I think most of us KNOW already what the vast majority of the women would look like.

This is critically important information for mothers of black girls who may not fit the desirable phenotypes. This skin shade discrimination is pure racial discrimination because the dark woman is being discriminated against due to her African phenotype. Remember that white racists discriminate against black people on the basis of skin shade--in the SAME WAY. Yet bm holler that choosing lighter/whiter women is "preference" not racial discrimination. I'd like for someone to explain to me (privately) how this is any different than a racist white person who "prefers" another white person for a job and discriminates against a qualified darker person (black) for a job. It's ALL racial discrimination.

2. Also, I want to use this case to show how the DBRbm easily pulls some sistas. Someone complimented Shecodes on her looks and she graciously thanked the person, but that got the attention of this troll because the troll is looking for a way to divide us. So that was an Aha moment for him or her. LOL! DBRs KNOW that lots of women have issues or insecurities about their looks and they know that many women love to get compliments about our looks (because a woman's value in a sexist world is STILL largely based on her looks) so this is frequently what's used as an opening gambit. Works most of the time.

3. No one knows for sure what I look like, though I love it how some folks took the bait I offered. LOL! The point is I could very well be SheCodes' complexion, much darker or much lighter. Aside from the security issue, this is one reason why I haven't posted a pic. Too many black folks are SO HUNG UP on appearance, or specifically how light or dark another black person is and or their hair, nose, lips,etc. It's just amazing!

But let me me drop this on any of you sistas who may need to chew on it. The truly intelligent men in the world don't care about skin shade if no social taboo is in place. Many of them manipulate skin shade to their benefit, but if you have a lot to offer and have so-called "average" looks, a typical truly intelligent man WANTS you around him because intelligence is all about surviving AND THRIVING--which is not about IQ, nor race, nor ethnicity, nor gender, etc. So any bm who would reject the across-the-board awesome Oluchi due to her skin shade is NOT intelligent in my book, and I don't care about anyone else's book.

4. I'm going to do a blog one day on the "responses" I've gotten from bm re my highlighting the beauty of dark skinned sistas. LOL!

5. Most importantly, sistas must not allow ANYONE to divide us--neither the racists nor the sexists, and we definitely have many sexist bw out there too and some of them are wannabe racists.

SheCodes said...


I realize this is a dimwit who is trying to divide and conquer here by causing dissension, disruption, etc.,with this very elementary, transparent, and pathetic attempt to cause SheCodes to get pissed at me for possibly devaluing her looks. However, I think from reading Shecodes comments here that she's a lot sharper than that.


Damn straight.

Additionally, I'm finding myself amazed at being described as 'light-skinned'... I am actually dark-skinned with traditionally African features, as gem from What about our Daughters can attest. In fact, I am particularly dark in the summer, as I love to swim at the beach.

Sometimes, depending on your computer monitor, a picture can appear lighter or darker than in reality. I can only assume that's what's happening with some folk.

It saddens me that some people love to sow strive between black women of differing shades. Please do not take the bait.

P.S... maybe I'll remove the pic after today! I didn't mean to become the source of an argument.

Vivian said...

Amen Shirl-I'm engaged to a non-black man and I've had my "sista-card" revoked because of my choice. Like all my melanin miraculously disappears now that I'm with him. I was a ride or die chick back in the day to the black men and Latino men I mostly dated. I stayed with one BM who I found out had 6 kids with 4 women, two of whom were conceived during the 2 years we were together. For months, my allegiance to "the Black struggle" overpowered my need to get away from him, and fast. Never again! Even though I'm now engaged, my allegiance to the Black struggle is now to hold us to a higher standard. No education? That's not OK! No desire to do anything other than chill on the block? That's not OK! Questionable morals? That's not OK! I'm so saddened that we sistas have been indoctrinated to assume the burden for brothas who act up. The only way we can do better for them is to do right by us FIRST!

Anonymous said...

Additionally, I'm finding myself amazed at being described as 'light-skinned'... I am actually dark-skinned with traditionally African features, as gem from What about our Daughters can attest.

First of all, you were described as "not dark". You were NOT described as "light skinned". Second, when a group of black women, including Meagan Good and Nona Gaye, who are all adored by black men, were mentioned, Evia argued that they could be considered light-brown with less African features. Unless your pic totally misrepresents how you actually look, you fall right in the same category as the above mentioned women. Thus, a black man complimenting your looks would be doing so because you don't look like the stereotypical pure African woman according to Evia.

Anonymous said...

I stayed with one BM who I found out had 6 kids with 4 women, two of whom were conceived during the 2 years we were together.

And that is totally on you. That guy doesn't represent black men. He represents your choices in black men.

Anonymous said...

I would love it if someone researched the complexions/phenotypes of the wives or significant others of influential (wealth, celebrity, education, politics, etc.)black men who are under 40 and provide the pictures of these women.

http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/premiere_photo/20050905/23/3316691042.jpg

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper333/stills/83b6hv43.jpg

http://access.nscpcdn.com/gallery/i/d/denzelpauletta/50944871.jpg

http://www.vibride.com/images/article/1/838-749.jpg

http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/premiere_photo/20050906/03/2497977513.jpg

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/articles/1302069/article_images/headline_1178716938.jpg

http://images.filmmagic.com/images/tnm/4023184.jpg

http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/dailydish/2006/01/31/dd_bassettvance107200x293.jpg

SheCodes said...

Anonymous 5:21:

"Not dark" vs "light"...whatever! Semantics. For crying out loud, this incessant, ridiculous, infantile, hair-splitting 'science of shading' is rank stupidity in any form. What's next, a colorwheel for measurement?!

_____________________________

Sharon_Cullers said:


Nailah Franklin, the young pharmaceutical rep, was a beautiful, intelligent woman. And yet it seems that she settled for a DBR man (we don't know the race yet, nor does it matter). She paid with her life. Now please tell me why someone with so much going for her would be involved with a man with a criminal background, who had escaped a federal facility in 2001, and who had two orders of protection from an ex-wife and ex-girlfriend?


I see this all the time. I believe that the 'danger radar' of a lot of black women has been purposefully disabled. I know several exceptional bw who somehow believe the story that 'his ex is crazy', 'he was going through something', etc.

The most important thing though, is that THESE WOMEN BELIEVE HE WILL BE DIFFERENT WITH THEM.

I have had more than a few DBR types who say they need someone to 'tame them'... but what that really means is 'I know that my behavior is out of line, but I take no responsibility for fixing my own character flaws.. I will place that burden on a woman'.

arthur said...

Anonymous said...
I stayed with one BM who I found out had 6 kids with 4 women, two of whom were conceived during the 2 years we were together.


And that is totally on you. That guy doesn't represent black men. He represents your choices in black men.
5:24 PM


More proof of the testimony I read here all the time: that no matter how badly a man behaves, the BC will always blame the woman and never him.

"Whatever happens, it's always the black woman's fault."

Who could blame themselves, or anyone else, from wanting to get away from that?

Evia says : said...

http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/premiere_photo/20050905/23/3316691042.jpg

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper333/stills/83b6hv43.jpg

http://access.nscpcdn.com/gallery/i/d/denzelpauletta/50944871.jpg

http://www.vibride.com/images/article/1/838-749.jpg

http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/premiere_photo/20050906/03/2497977513.jpg

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/articles/1302069/article_images/headline_1178716938.jpg

http://images.filmmagic.com/images/tnm/4023184.jpg

http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/dailydish


I didn't bother to look at these because whoever's in the pics, I can count on the fingers of two hands and still have fingers left over. The research needs to be massive and it's way overdue.

Stop hatin melanin-rich sistas!!! Your female ancestors were melanin-rich.

Evia says : said...

http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/premiere_photo/20050905/23/3316691042.jpg

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper333/stills/83b6hv43.jpg

http://access.nscpcdn.com/gallery/i/d/denzelpauletta/50944871.jpg

http://www.vibride.com/images/article/1/838-749.jpg

http://eur.i1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/premiere_photo/20050906/03/2497977513.jpg

http://media.monstersandcritics.com/articles/1302069/article_images/headline_1178716938.jpg

http://images.filmmagic.com/images/tnm/4023184.jpg

http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/dailydish


I didn't bother to look at these because whoever's in the pics, I can count on the fingers of two hands and still have fingers left over. The research needs to be massive and it's way overdue.

Stop hatin melanin-rich sistas!!! Your female ancestors were melanin-rich.

Halima said...

arthur you have it in one!

This is what bw have to put up with; a community that will insist that a bw only date bm, will then blame her for being with a dysfunctional man, and refuse to acknowlege even in the face of concrete proof that because of the levels of dysfunction in black men, she cannot help but pick such men with alarming regularity if she restricts herself to bm!

bw are simply in a bind if they want to put up with their communty's requirements. they would be much healtheir if they ignore the BC altogether!

either that or they become magicians!

Anonymous said...

I didn't bother to look at these because whoever's in the pics, I can count on the fingers of two hands and still have fingers left over
----

neither did I, these ppl are insistant on keeping BW in a box.

Vivian said...

@anon 5:24. RE: my comments about staying with the BM with 6 kids-true that it was my choice, but that choice was strongly informed by my being taught since birth that staying with black men just b/c they're black, even if they are DBR is better for the whole black community, and not for my individual benefit. BW always putting ourselves last. It was only when I began affirming myself that I began "trimming the fat", ultimately leading to my wonderful fiancé.

Anonymous said...

I didn't bother to look at these

Why not? You asked for pics of wealthy/celebrity black men and their wives. I provided a few to start you off with. What is the problem?

Anonymous said...

LOL @ author, a white man passing judgement on the black community.

The truth Author is that black men actually are blamed for everything by this entire society, including the bc. That is why there was a million man march.

The only people claiming that black women are blamed for everything are the women on this site and such other sites. These are the same women who say that black women are being slaughtered by black men. Their opinions have little basis in facts.

We are all responsible for our actions. The guy is responsible for what he did and vivian is responsible for what she did. And if she was taught to stay with a black man no matter what he did, she was taught that by her parents, not the black community.

Anonymous said...

Stop hatin melanin-rich sistas!!! Your female ancestors were melanin-rich.

Stop hatin melanin-rich brothas. Your male ancestors were melanin-rich. You are the one insisting on expressing racist views.

Anonymous said...

Hi Evia. I don't know how far you have gotten on your list, but here is one you could add if you like:

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2005-05/17727959.jpg

Anonymous said...

Has anyone ever made such a list. This could be a first. Here is my contribution:

http://chicagobusiness.com/images/society/20061113/society%2011%201.jpg

Halima said...

^^^
keep at it, you have a way to go before u refute the stats that a greater number of high earning bm marry non-black women!

Good luck!

Anonymous said...

hamlia you might want to consider turning off you comments like evia...

Anonymous said...

Hi Evia. I don't know how far you have gotten on your list, but here is one you could add if you like:

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2005-05/17727959.jpg

------

dont forget to post these links at tiredblackman.com!!! ;)

Anonymous said...

keep at it, you have a way to go before u refute the stats that a greater number of high earning bm marry non-black women!

Good luck!


I wasn't trying to do this. I thought we were posting pics of black celebs and high earners with black wives to see how their wives look. Were we supposed to include white wives? I'm going to think up a name so that I'm not confused with other anons. But here is another pic I found:

http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/61/63/0000036163_20061130163805.jpg

Dina said...

evia said
but that got the attention of this troll because the troll is looking for a way to divide us.

Yes, this latest troll is very tenacious and a total pain in the butt. I'd laugh, but it does tend to drag discussion off on tangents, which ,I suppose, is part of the strategy.

Anonymous said...

Additionally, I'd like to stress that some of us (like myself) are very open to dating men of all races, including TIMbm.

I think that your attitude, along with your good looks, will take you a very long way. It would be refreshing to see someone truly make a blog about opening your options to ALL ideal men as oppose to castigating a particular group of men because of their race. Thanks for the refreshing veiwpoint.

Let Love Rule said...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070928/ap_on_re_us/missing_woman;_ylt=An84ds13uValzCFV4TLTVhdH2ocA

Body ID'd as missing Chicago woman's

...Dental records were used to identify the body of Nailah Franklin, 28, who was reported missing Sept. 19 after she didn't show up for a work meeting, Chicago police spokeswoman Monique Bond said. The cause of death has not been determined, though forensic evidence was still being processed, Bond said.

The woman's unclothed body was discovered Thursday not far from where her car was found in Hammond, Ind., last week.

...
Franklin, a sales representative for Indianapolis-based Eli Lilly, had recently filed a police report about threatening phone calls she received FROM A MAN SHE DATED BRIEFLY....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As long as they're out there, we need to call them what they are: Dangerous and Damaged.

gatamala said...

SO I think it's very important that we NAME the qualities of the men who will destroy lives. And I don't think just saying not the right man for you, or ideal mate is good enough. Ladies need to understand that these men are DANGEROUS AND UNFIXABLE by them. that's how I feel about the guy who broke my cousin's nose. He's MORE than not date material. He's worthless.


this is the point of those of us who prefer the term

I actually agree w/ trvlr to some extent. For those of us who have gotten past the initial shock or perhaps havent had such bad experiences, it's easier to move on.

Some folks are half empty; some half full - either way it's the same thing. If you don't like the term, fine. If you do, fine.

Evia says : said...

We are all responsible for our actions. The guy is responsible for what he did and vivian is responsible for what she did. And if she was taught to stay with a black man no matter what he did, she was taught that by her parents, not the black community.

When there are numerous (if not the vast majority ) bw who say they were taught or socialized by their parents to "get a bm," or "stick by their bm," I would say that constitutes the voice of the "black community." It certainly wasn't just Vivian's parents. It was only on these IR blogs that I have ever encountered even "a few" bw who said their parents told them it was okay to love non-bm. That was considered on the level of treason in EVERY black circle I've ever mingled in and not much has changed. I definitely never met any bw in my offline life who were told that.

Stop hatin melanin-rich brothas. Your male ancestors were melanin-rich. You are the one insisting on expressing racist views.

My ex-husband was a very melanin-rich black man. Yum-yum!! I have never DISCRIMINATED against melanin rich men, which is a lot more than a LOT of bm can truthfully say about dating and marrying bw.

And as to people sending me links,that's a great start for the EXTENSIVE research YOU need to start YOUR OWN blog or write YOUR book with YOUR OWN message. See, I've given you an idea for a book or a blog, so get to it. LOL! I'd love to see EXTENSIVE research done on this topic in order to convince young melanin-rich girls that hoards (not just the relative few) of prominent, wealthy, influential bm "prefer" them for love and marriage because that's NOT what they're seeing in the media or in their environments.

On this same topic, I don't understand why people keep trying to get me(privately) to start a bm-bw relationship and marriage blog. LOL! I would think there'd be plenty of those online already.

Anonymous said...

My ex-husband was a very melanin-rich black man.

That's why he is your "EX".

Anonymous said...

Okay, I think that other Anonymous has established him/herself as a troll. Can we flip the "ignore switch" on this fool now?

Anonymous said...

When there are numerous (if not the vast majority ) bw who say they were taught or socialized by their parents to "get a bm," or "stick by their bm," I would say that constitutes the voice of the "black community."

What "numerous" black women? Where do you get your info from?

Anonymous said...

anon said
Can we flip the "ignore switch" on this fool now?


Ditto. Please don't feed it. otherwise, it will simply leave it's "droppings" all over this site. And I hate stepping in troll sh*t.

Anonymous said...

Women of all racial groups tend to face more familiy opposition to IR relationships than men. This is due to societies' natural tendencies to shelter their women. Specifically though, when it comes to black/white relationships, white women faced the most family opposition of all race/gender groups and are most likely to be disowned or disinvited when they enter interracial relationships.

Anonymous said...

Also, despite white women suffering more family pressure to not enter IR, black women tend to be less open than white women to IR. This goes against the notion that family pressure is the reason for black women's tendency to be less open than all other groups toward IR.

TruBLKM said...

So there isnt enough black men out there huh? Too many of us gettin in trouble with the law right??? Did you know black men in college out number black men in prison by 4 to 1? OH, you didnt know that??? Wow. Yet you lie and say most of us will be dead or in prison. Black men are gettin their games together right along with black women. I love that IR's are highly outnumbered and will always be. MORE black men college aged prefer black women.

arthur said...

LOL @ author, a white man passing judgement on the black community.

I stand by what I said, but thanks for a civil reply.

Evia says : said...

LOL @ author, a white man passing judgement on the black community

Arthur is ONE wm. Your implication is that he is responsible for ALL of the racism that wm have perpetrated? Or what exactly do you mean? If my interpretation is correct, then why isn't EVERY single bm responsible for what ALL other bm have done and do?

GoldenAh said...

I see the term DBR, and I think of the critter that almost took out my nephews' eye when he sliced his face open with a knife. He's still a good looking young man. Young bm are in as much danger from the DBR as bw.

I could personally blog about all the wicked rapes, murders, and vicious beatings of bw and bm have received at the hands of the DBR. I may if the stories would serve to expound on a particular point.

Pretending that dangerous people don't exist is stupid.

As Chris Rock said, when he's at an ATM he's not looking over his shoulder for the media.
____________

Halima, you forgot to include racio-misogynist in your dictionary. This was a good one....

Sharon Cullars said...

Halima, maybe you should start outing these trolls by publishing their computer addresses. I get the feeling that at least one of the anon and Trublkm are one and the same.

Sharon Cullars said...

hey sharron welcome and hows the writing going!

Right now, due to personal circumstances, the writing is pretty much on hold. Hope to get back to it soon.

Sharon Cullars said...

I have had more than a few DBR types who say they need someone to 'tame them'... but what that really means is 'I know that my behavior is out of line, but I take no responsibility for fixing my own character flaws.. I will place that burden on a woman'.

Their mommas (and daddies) should have "tamed" them while they were growing up. By the time they reach adulthood, they're too damn old for some grown woman to "teach" them anything. They want to be a "man" and a "child" all at the same time, and would have you wiping their asses if they could get away with it.

Anonymous said...

Okay, I think that other Anonymous has established him/herself as a troll. Can we flip the "ignore switch" on this fool now?

--------

thank you. let me know when we start discussing BW in IRR until then im taking a haitus...

Anonymous said...

anon said:
thank you. let me know when we start discussing BW in IRR until then im taking a haitus...

....................

I think I'm going to do the same. Sigh- I know it's difficult,but I really with there was a bit more moderation here at times..

Anonymous said...

white women faced the most family opposition of all race/gender groups

Yea this was discussed at length on the sites below. Apparently research has concluded that whites in general receive more opposition from the white community to interracial relationships than blacks receive from the black community. White women specifically receive more opposition than all other groups. So in reality, the notion that the low rate of IR for black women is due to family and black community opposition doesn't hold water.

http://www.rachelstavern.com/?m=200512

http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=24

http://notfrisco2.com/leones/?p=2964

Halima said...

^^^^
Sure I will believe a study done by a white female as the end of the matter!lol

Halima said...

I see the term DBR, and I think of the critter that almost took out my nephews' eye when he sliced his face open with a knife. He's still a good looking young man. Young bm are in as much danger from the DBR as bw.

Golden this is very true, thanks for highlighting this!

Anonymous said...

Just curious Halima. What prevents a white female professor of sociology from doing legitimate research?

Halima said...

it doesnt, but it affects 'defintitions' and locus points, and in this case, the crucial definititon of what constitutes opposition.

what happens when you locate/define opposition as that which happens just at the 'coming together'? well for one, you will miss all the other stuff prior to this period which might actually affect non-ww more and be the reason they ;argely dont turn up at the researchers locus point to start with!

for instance you will miss the subtle opposition that bw face all their lives, that tied into the racist structure eg their exclusion from the marrigeable ideal, the reinforced messages of 'wm dont find bw attractive'.

defintition, locus and approach definitely affects your final answers.

so you see its the way you look at it, and the 'unguided' white female eye can sometimes see the world in terms of what is relevant to them and invalidate/not recognise issues that fall outside this paradigm.

Halima said...

Halima, maybe you should start outing these trolls by publishing their computer addresses. I get the feeling that at least one of the anon and Trublkm are one and the same.

Thanks Sharron, I will look into this!

Anonymous said...

http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Features/6-03-20-SeniorCitizensLackTolerance.htm

"Also, blacks (91%) and Hispanics (90%) are more accepting of interracial dating than are non-Hispanic whites (71%)."

Let Love Rule said...

Half the postings here are from trolls. It's ridiculous! And it's not helping me in my troll feeding recovery, either.

Who cares what senior citizens and white women think!

tasha said...

True that, L.L. Rule!

What I'm not understanding is that some of the trolls come on here with their "concrete" evidence and "present" it, and in turn, trying to invalidate our experiences.

A lot of us are at different stages, from using the inspiration that Evia, Halima, et al., where we are waking up...only to see that we have OPTIONS, options that some women have taken up, while others are still on the fence. And yes, we still have some others that defend & deny, defend & deny. At one point in time, I used to be a part of this crowd (defend & deny). I couldn't anymore when I looked around my environment and realized that I was shutting myself off from actually LIVING by my own expectations, because I was living everyone else's (namely, the "black community").

I can't validate no one else's experiences, only my own. I love all men, but I love SMART ones even better, regardless of the package he happens to come in.

But with the bw singles rate not looking so good (and yes, I'm one of that 70%), the only "faithful" (if you were in group 2 like I was) option wasn't validating me as a "good" woman, especially more so if I questioned everything (romantically speaking, or so it seemed) that came my way.

I understand that they want (the trolls) to keep a certain amount of us in their "care and keeping" so that they'll be there to console us when they prove us wrong (this is the instances that I've seen on here). The other instance is to call us racists.

With that being said, DBR is a good term. It doesn't describe all bm (though it's been covered and exhausted beyond comprehension); it describes ALL men, regardless of color, creed, etc. And no, a lot of us can't fix them; they can only fix themselves.

Anonymous said...



Yea this was discussed at length on the sites below. Apparently research has concluded that whites in general receive more opposition from the white community to interracial relationships than blacks receive from the black community. White women specifically receive more opposition than all other groups. So in reality, the notion that the low rate of IR for black women is due to family and black community opposition doesn't hold water.

http://www.rachelstavern.com/?m=200512

http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=24

http://notfrisco2.com/leones/?p=2964


Interesting how you are so ready and willing to believe this "study" because I guess it helps you sleep better at night (even though its completely false and I think deep down you know it) but I bet if I did the countless other studies that show Black men to be the most destructive and least educated of other races of men you would fight tooth and nail to defend against it. Typical Black male hypocrisy. You can see the clear racial bias in studies when it effects you as a Black man but it just seems to slip through the cracks when it concerns Black women.

Pretty Brown Girl said...

These are some excerpts from http://brotherpeacemaker.wordpress.com/2007/09/29/the-expense-of-assimilation-on-the-black-community/ BLOG

"Black people who make the choice to pursue an interracial relationship should be aware of the choices they make for themselves and for their future generations. Black people who makes the choice not to pursue the development of a long term relationship with someone of obvious black heritage in order to pursue someone of another race cannot possibly be taken seriously as someone who wishes to keep the black community strong. This is not meant as an insult or a put down or anything negative. It is merely a manifestation of the priorities they have made for themselves."

"A black man or woman who chooses a non-black person as their life partner is misguided to believe that the non-black person would be the best candidate for developing strong black children. I am not saying that it would be impossible for non-blacks to raise strong black children. But, the black person who is developing an interracial relationship is actually planning for interracial children with an interracial identity that in all likelihood would be more apt to identify more with the dominate culture that exist between the two parents. With so much of our American culture controlled by white people, the black person who makes the choice to be in a relationship with a white person is making the choice to try and conform to the dominating white culture and to perpetuate the assimilation of the black community.

The black person who makes the choice to integrate into the dominating culture really must be honest with his or her self and admit that all their pronouncements of concern for the welfare of the black community take a backseat to their personal desire to assimilate. These black people are more of a role model to other black people on how to assimilate or integrate into the colorless and racially generic whole of American culture that just so happens to be controlled and dominated from the white community."

pretty brown girl said...

He continues

"And since white people are firmly in control, whether they do it consciously or subconsciously, they manipulate social systems to the benefit of white people and the detriment of black people. So in essence, the interracial reality is actually counter to the strong black reality.

Although it may sound wonderful to hear someone say that they don’t notice people’s skin color, reality says that people notice color all the time. Black people who are with white partners aren’t going to go home tonight, slap their forehead, and say something along the lines of, “Oh my gosh! I never noticed you were white.”

When a black person makes the choice to no longer live in the black community with a black spouse and have black children then they are no longer for the perpetuation of black people and the black community. Their primary concern should be for the establishment or perpetuation of assimilated people and the integrated community. If all black people were so moved to follow these people’s example the black community would cease to exist. Our children would more than likely not be black children but mulattoes. Chances are good that the vast majority of these children would work to integrate themselves into the dominating culture and leave their roots in the black community behind.

Now if every black person were to focus on marrying a black spouse and raising black children with a strong connection to the black community then the black community is more likely to thrive and flourish. In such an environment young black people are much more likely to grow up and make the choice to actively defend the black community rather than just claim that they are proud to be black while minimizing their exposure to the black community."
*sigh*... I know this is long

BUT He has even more rhetoric on his blog.

Pretty Brown Girl said...

Ok.. this is the last part.

"The black community cannot survive and assimilate at the same time. Black people cannot promote love of our black heritage in one breath and the need to do undermine the black community in the next. It is either one or the other. People cannot have it both ways. When black people make the choice to pursue an interracial relationships it actually weakens the black community.

With each person who abandons the pursuit of the black experience with a black partner then we have that one less brother or sister to help us in the black community. Black people who make the choice to assimilate and encourage other black people to give up on the black struggle actually weakens the black community.

Children of interracial relationships are less likely to work for the empowerment of the black community and more likely to work for the empowerment of the generic whole who happen to be controlled by a white dominating class."

I am too right now to respond to it. It was just posted on his blog.

Cheers!

Prettybrowngirl said...

oops, I meant to write that I am too tired to respond to him.

Cheers
PBG

Anonymous said...

Is posting anti-ir lectures useful here?
i suppose if you didn't already know what some 'others' think this would help you out....
I'm not sure.

Miriam said...

Pretty brown girl,

That's pretty interesting that you should find it necessary to make sure his post was posted here. :0)

"Black people who are with white partners aren’t going to go home tonight, slap their forehead, and say something along the lines of, “Oh my gosh! I never noticed you were white.” "

I hate to admit this, but it does happen!

In a marriage, there is so much going on. I used to think i'd see hubby's "whiteness" ALL THE TIME. But the truth is, I hardly notice unless we are dealing with a race topic. There is too much going on besides race -finance, kids, holidays, etc. We really don't sit around constantly amazed at each others' color.

PBG -I really wonder your motive for posting that here.

Anonymous said...

Although it may sound wonderful to hear someone say that they don’t notice people’s skin color, reality says that people notice color all the time. Black people who are with white partners aren’t going to go home tonight, slap their forehead, and say something along the lines of, “Oh my gosh! I never noticed you were white.”

When some people make the claim that they don´t see color, what they really mean is, they don´t treat people differently because of a difference in color. Only the person making this claim knows if they´re being true with this stament. It´s not for me (or anyone else) to judge if this is a true statement or not.

When a black person makes the choice to no longer live in the black community with a black spouse and have black children then they are no longer for the perpetuation of black people and the black community.

First of all, "black people" and "white" people in America are not racially "pure". Both blacks, AND whites often come from mixed heritages though folks want to prented it's not true. Many of the most famous "African-Americans" have been of mixed heritage. So lets stop pretending there´s some kind of "purity" that has to be "preserved". It is a little to late for that.

And as for the black "community", if those who consider themselves spokespeople for the BC REALLY cared about it´s preservation, they would concentrate ALL their efforts on ending the self-defeating and self-destructive attitudes that are KILLING black people in the thousands EVERY year. They would be about ending the current hatred and violence against black women. The mothers of "the race".

Since this is NOT happening- and shows NO signs of happening - Black women need to concentrate on SELF preservation and the preservation and success of their children REGARDLESS of their childrens "racial" make-up.


Their primary concern should be for the establishment or perpetuation of assimilated people and the integrated community. If all black people were so moved to follow these people’s example the black community would cease to exist.

This is nothing but a scare tactic. If EVERY African-American and Black woman in the Diaspora were to marry and pro-create out, black people would continue to exist because most black live in Africa and continue to have higher than average birth rates. Plus, it is NOT black women´s responsiblity to be breeders of the "black race". We black women have given birth to the HUMAN race. The HUMAN family in ALL it´s beautiful varieties. We ONLY have allegiance to OURSELVES and our happiness. Most don´t realize this yet, but growing numbers are learning this simple fact daily.

Our children would more than likely not be black children but mulattoes. Chances are good that the vast majority of these children would work to integrate themselves into the dominating culture and leave their roots in the black community behind.

As long as a community GIVES a person a positive reason to want to belong to it (either fully or partially) there is nothing to fear.

After all, one shouldn`t really be concerned how another free person identifies or associates with. We can only control (and should only control) ourselves.


Now if every black person were to focus on marrying a black spouse and raising black children with a strong connection to the black community then the black community is more likely to thrive and flourish.

Again, folks are going to do what they want to do. It´s stupidity to talk about what if´s, what could be´s, and what should be´s. It´s a free for all these days and folks are concentrating on what´s and who´s best for THEM. Black women can waste time with all of this "thinking" and contemplating all they wan´t, but they should know that EVERYONE else is getting on about the business of LIFE and LIVING it. AND THEY DON´T GIVE A HOT DAMN about them and their "thoughts", wishes, and dreams.

SMART BW are finding love REGARDLESS of "race" and are happier for it. So are their kids.


In such an environment young black people are much more likely to grow up and make the choice to actively defend the black community rather than just claim that they are proud to be black while minimizing their exposure to the black community."

LOL Whatever, the black "community" in it´s current dysfunctional state is worthy of minimal exposure. When that changes, other changes will take place as well.

"The black community cannot survive and assimilate at the same time. Black people cannot promote love of our black heritage in one breath and the need to do undermine the black community in the next.

LOL If anyone seriously believes it´s IR relationships undermining the black "community" they´re living in fantasy land.

It is either one or the other. People cannot have it both ways. When black people make the choice to pursue an interracial relationships it actually weakens the black community.

Again, BW need to start having an "allegiance" with THEMSELVES.

With each person who abandons the pursuit of the black experience with a black partner then we have that one less brother or sister to help us in the black community.

LOL More mammihood for sista´s I see. Cause BM ARE NOT AND NEVER WILL BE ON BOARD. SMAR BW know this and will NEVER sacrafice their happiness for the sake of the BC.

Black people who make the choice to assimilate and encourage other black people to give up on the black struggle actually weakens the black community.

LOL oh yeah whatever.

Children of interracial relationships are less likely to work for the empowerment of the black community and more likely to work for the empowerment of the generic whole who happen to be controlled by a white dominating class."

It is EVERYONE´S PERSONAL responsiblity to empower SELF. Period. All of this talk of "black community" REALLZ boils down to BLACK WOMEN ALONE.

SISTA´S BE SMART. CONCENTRATE ON SELF AND YOUR OWN HAPPINESS.

Because knowone else will EVER care about you as much as you SHOULD care about yourself.

You limit yourself, you have yourself to blame.

Let Love Rule said...

Pretty Brown Girl,

OMG! Have you become TROLL?

Why bring that dribble onto the site? We already know these people exists, 'cause we got plenty of trolls already. Does this person not have space for you to respond on his site? Why bring his discussion over here? We don't need it and don't care!

Anonymous said...

PBG,
I didn't want to be rude, but with a poster like you, who neesd trolls? lol You are doing their "job" for them. Maybe just posting a link is the better way to go for those who are interested in this sort of thing??? I think your time would have been better spent refuting him on his blog.

Pretty Brown Girl said...

Anonymous Thanks for your post :)

This part really struck home for me was this

"Again, folks are going to do what they want to do. It´s stupidity to talk about what if´s, what could be´s, and what should be´s. It´s a free for all these days and folks are concentrating on what´s and who´s best for THEM. Black women can waste time with all of this "thinking" and contemplating all they wan´t, but they should know that EVERYONE else is getting on about the business of LIFE and LIVING it. AND THEY DON´T GIVE A HOT DAMN about them and their "thoughts", wishes, and dreams.

SMART BW are finding love REGARDLESS of "race" and are happier for it. So are their kids."

--That said it all :)

**********************************
AS FOR THE PERSON(S) WHO QUESTIONED WHY I BROUGHT AN ISSUE IN HERE FOR DEBATE!! HOW STOOPID IS THAT QUESTION????

I BROUGHT IT HERE BECAUSE I KNEW IT COULD BE DEBATED IN HERE BY SOME REASONABLE PEOPLE AND I WAS TOO TIRED TO START ON IT FIRST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DON'T YOU READ BEFORE YOU JUMP FOR BLOOD???????????????

ALLOWING THESE PACK ATTACKS ON IR BLOGS ARE NOT A GOOD THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT IS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE AND INSANE!!!!

IR BLOGS LIKE THIS ARE MEANT TO BE A SOURCE OF SUPPORT AND ENCOURAGEMENT FOR BLACK WOMEN AND NOT A ZOO WHERE SOME ATTACK DOGS POSITION THEMSELVES AT THE DOOR TO SNARL AND GO FOR BLOOD.

HOW IDIOTIC AND UNPRODUCTIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE BUT CALLING ME A TROLL AND ANYTHING ELSE IS STUPID, IDIOTIC AND PLAIN INSANE!!!!!!!

IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS THE ISSUES I RAISED, DO SO, IF YOU DO NOT, MOVE THE HELL ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Anon at 8:55 PM,

Your post did say it all (at least for me) and I agree 100%

Especially this part...

"Because knowone else will EVER care about you as much as you SHOULD care about yourself."

Black women who care about themselves are not followers. They lead themselves and don´t live for other people. Their happiness comes first and above ALL else. Including the BC. And they don´t care if others feel comfortable with them and the choices they make.

Anonymous said...

Interesting how you are so ready and willing to believe this "study" because I guess it helps you sleep better at night (even though its completely false and I think deep down you know it)

Sorry. I new this to be true before even viewing the study and you give no evidence supporting your desire for the study to be false.

but I bet if I did the countless other studies that show Black men to be the most destructive and least educated of other races of men you would fight tooth and nail to defend against it.

Actually I wouldn't but your statement does increase my suspicion that anons like yourself are actually white racists posing as black women.

What I would do is respond by saying that black women are likewise the most uneducated and destructive race of women, thus showing that destructiveness is not a black male thing, but rather a black people thing. Of the 600 million members of the black race, the women are overall far less educated than the men.

pinkydj said...

It seems as if all control of this blog has been lost. Oy.


pinky

kara said...

Let Love Rule said...

Half the postings here are from trolls. It's ridiculous! And it's not helping me in my troll feeding recovery, either.

Who cares what senior citizens and white women think!


Hello ladies - long time, no commenting!

I've been very busy at work, so I've only had time to read and the watching everyone swatting away the Anon trolls is tiring and a waste of time.

Halima, may I give you a suggestion? Perhaps you can stop allowing Anonymous comments. By requiring everyone to sign in using a name, you can track the trolls much easier. Commenters won't need a blog for this - look at SheCodes bio on Blogger)

OR...

You can moderate the comments and only allow the real comments through. When it is apparent that inane comments are coming from a troll that only wants to disrupt, you don't have to let the comment through.

I think some sort of moderation would be helpful and it would help those of us who would rather finally get around to discussing positives (How to flirt, smart dating techniques online and off, fitness and beauty tips) instead of wading through the garbage posted here by trolls. Let them go to "Tired Black Man" or to some other blog where their can wallow in misery with their own.

Anonymous said...

yes, there is obviously a very determined effort to kill IR discussions and focus here- and it's proving rather successful (in the short term, at least). They want this stopped. They won't succeed, but,it should be nipped in the bud before too many people lose interest in this daily "battleground".

kara said...

Anonymous said...

yes, there is obviously a very determined effort to kill IR discussions and focus here- and it's proving rather successful (in the short term, at least). They want this stopped. They won't succeed, but,it should be nipped in the bud before too many people lose interest in this daily "battleground".

11:51 PM


Exactly.

The trolls are like spoiled children. The fact that they even take the time and energy to come here and comment validates the term "Damaged Beyond Repair" because that is what they are and they are not worth their time.

I hope that Halima is able to start moderating the comments... and Evia too one day. I hope she doesn't let them win that little battle.

'What About Our Daughters' moderates comments and she seems to have gotten rid of the trolls - or the IIT's as she calls them (Internet Ike Turners).

It's time to get rid of these DBR's once and for all.

The Black Blogosphere's Open Secret, "Violence" Against Female Bloggers - My name is Gina not "Anna Mae" - The Internet's Ike Turners.

kara said...

...and they are not worth OUR time.

Ms CPA said...

It's obvious that the majority of the posters here don't agree with an anti-ir stance. He's entitled to his opinion and we are to ours, we don't have to debate anything. Regardless, isn't there some type of etiquette here on hurling insults at other posters and responding in flame mode (all caps)?

Jean said...

another suggestion for Halima. She might not want to go this route, but she could possibly delegate moderating duties to a friend or other appropriate person.

Anonymous said...

Sorry. I new this to be true before even viewing the study and you give no evidence supporting your desire for the study to be false.

I'm sure that isn't true.

Actually I wouldn't but your statement does increase my suspicion that anons like yourself are actually white racists posing as black women.

No I'm not a white racist as a matter of fact I differ in the opinions of most of the women here because I do indeed love Black people and what is left of the Black community. I just recognize a hypocrite for what they are and thats what you are.

What I would do is respond by saying that black women are likewise the most uneducated and destructive race of women, thus showing that destructiveness is not a black male thing, but rather a black people thing. Of the 600 million members of the black race, the women are overall far less educated than the men.

And you would be wrong. Countless studies have shown Black women's upward mobility in social circles world wide. You say that black women are less educated than Black men (which is laughable because you and I both know thats ridiculous) yet its common to go on a college campus and see Black men outnumbered 10 to 1 by Black women. Graduating at a higher and faster rate and pursuing masters and doctorates at almost 2 times the rate of Black men. But like I said if I pulled up those you would have every excuse in the world from "the numbers are wrong" to "the white man would rather see us successful than black men" and basically perpetuate the number 1 reason why the BC is so stagnant nowadays. People would rather preserve the Black male ego by either downplaying Black women's success or blaming the white man than confronting his low performance socially and figuring out a solution to it. You call my views racist but believe it or not my realness is more helpful to the community than your coverups and sugarcoating.

Anonymous said...

I have always thought that the owner of this blog should consider making it into a forum or messageboard. it would not only make making comments and replying to them much simpler but it would also keep track of the trolls as well. Not to mention forums usually garner a lot more attention than blogs...

dottie said...

This should be a message board. So when these doggone trolls/DBR/racists parade their dumb butts in here, thinking they can spew any kind of crap, you can ban them right quick, and in a hurry!

...The only thing we're doing here is battling these fools.

Let Love Rule said...

ITT. LOL.

Pretty Brown Girl, I know it's not nice to call people names but you posted not 1, not 2, but 3 long tracks of quotes from some guy who had issues with IR.

And it looked exactly like something a troll would post. There was no refuting or anything, just some crazy guys opinion. Like propaganda. I just don't see why it was neccassary to post all of that.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As for the trolls, I talked about this with a gay friend whose apart of many websites. He says they have a kind of network, where at anytime at least 3 people are monitoring the comments. We a troll posts a comment. Everyone knows to immediately simply say this commeent is from a troll, and one of the monitors immediately deletes it.

The point is they simply never respond to the trolls and their comments are always deleted.

Evia says : said...

One very effective way to get rid of trolls and others who have a different agenda is to just DELETE their comment and also delete any comments that(s) responds to a troll's comment(s). This totally works because the troll will realize they're just wasting their time typing their drivel and anyone who responds to a troll will know their response will be gone too.

I simply don't have the time to monitor my blog's comments because this would require constant monitoring. I wasn't and am still not willing to do that because I have a full life outside of the blogosphere. I have children; I have a full time partner, and I'm an artist. I'm also very involved in the community. In addition to that, I own a small business.

I started blogging in order to express my own feelings about being in an IR marriage, sort of like writing in a diary. It morphed into what it has become in response to the intense feelings raging in sistas out there re the high level of romantic relationship dissatisfication.

I still find it amazing that anyone would want to read my thoughts, feelings, opinions, and comment. Had I known that there would be this amount of interest in bf-wm relationships, I probably wouldn't have started my blog or else I would have set up a message board--which is something I don't have time to do.

Anonymous said...

I'm sure that isn't true.

I'm sure that it is.

And you would be wrong. Countless studies have shown Black women's upward mobility in social circles world wide.

"African American" is not a race. You made reference to the black race and worldwide, black men are more educated than black women. African women lag behind African men educationally and Africa is the home of the vast majority of the black race.

No I'm not a white racist as a matter of fact I differ in the opinions of most of the women here because I do indeed love Black people and what is left of the Black community.

I suspect that you are. You clearly hate black men with a passion and seek to create turmoil within the black community. Divide and conquer is your goal white man. I can see right through you.

m said...

"Even though I'm now engaged, my allegiance to the Black struggle is now to hold us to a higher standard. No education? That's not OK! No desire to do anything other than chill on the block? That's not OK! Questionable morals? That's not OK! I'm so saddened that we sistas have been indoctrinated to assume the burden for brothas who act up. The only way we can do better for them is to do right by us FIRST!"

Sistas!!!! Can I hear an "AMEN"?!?!?

Halima said...

"Because knowone else will EVER care about you as much as you SHOULD care about yourself."

This should be coined as a statement and added to our phrase book

Anonymous said...

"African American" is not a race. You made reference to the black race and worldwide, black men are more educated than black women. African women lag behind African men educationally and Africa is the home of the vast majority of the black race.

OMG! Of course African women aren't as educated as African men! Being Nigerian, the inequality between the women and men there is outrageous!! However, i'm sure if you were to compare the African immigrants to the UK/Canada/States in terms of the women and the men, the women would be more successful than the men.

Anonymous said...

Anon 3:20, I was about the post the same thing. African black women don't have the same opportunities as their male counterparts do.

Anonymous said...

Evia,I'm somewhat sad to hear that you're regretting things, a bit. But mam, perhaps are the "Mother Theresa" of IR. :)

Anonymous said...

In Canada, Black women have lower incomes, higher unemployment, and less education that black men.

http://www.casw-acts.ca/advocacy/blackwomen_e.pdf

Anonymous said...

^^^^^ your point?

TruBLKM said...

Nope. I dont need to have more than one screen name.

Its funny though...this blog is like watchin a group of blind people sit in a circle and tell each other they are not blind...funny stuff. My only beef is that you tend to classify all black men as something bad. That truly pisses me off because I have a beautiful black woman at my side and I am college educated and entrepneur I can play a white man's game and throw it back at him tenfold. My family even has a scholarship in our name. Dont hand me the BS of BM this and are that. (If anything you sound mad that most of the black community considers you sellouts. I dont see us coddling black men who date ww. They are sellouts equally too.) SOME black men are that way but not MOST and my brothas are wakin up especially to the way the media portrays us. The media doesnt want you to know that MOST black men prefer black women. Maybe there is a black community on Mars that you keep refering to.

pinkydj said...

Ugh..bm's bios are not relevant to this blog. This is a forum for bw.

BW here are discussing THEIR experiences and reality;some of those experiences are with bm and that's why bm are discussed.

If you are happily married to a bw and are successful great; that's your business.

If as you say, bm are great, love bw etc. fine. If that is so, then that reality will stand for itself and you don't need to come here to tell us that---we would SEE it and FEEL it.

So far, all I'm getting is someone trying to impose their will on someone else who has said NO and leave.

Ugh.

pinky

Anonymous said...

some of those experiences are with bm and that's why bm are discussed.

And that's why black men respond.

Let Love Rule said...

Geez,

There's got to be a way to ban some of the bm posters here who are stuck on telling us about their lives like we care.

I've refrained from calling on a switch per se because apart of me likes an open forum, but since I'm in Troll Feeders Anonymous and can not respond to these fools, I'd rather not have to see their comments to begin with.

Halima have you considered doing what GEM does, where people have to register? Then you have some control over who can post. (I think...I'm not completely sure how it works.)

Anonymous said...

LLR

Why don't you do your own blog and set it up anyway you like instead of going around to everyone else's blog crying about how they have it set up?

Let Love Rule said...

Anonymous 5:13 AM,

It was just a suggestion. Sorry to offend.

dottie said...

trublkm said...

My only beef is that you tend to classify all black men as something bad.
------------------------------------------------
With all due respect sir, we're only talking about some of the black men, not all of them!!! DBRs come in all colors, races, hell...even genders! Perhaps you aren't getting with the program. If this pisses you off so much, then maybe you shouldn't come back here then.

Good day,

D said...

I understand the need for understanding of the DBR concept... I am trying to teach my 13 year old daughter to avoid DBR boys (and girls)... I don't use the phrase "Damaged Beyond Repair"... but I effectively am saying the same thing.

I think sometimes some people carry it a little too far... generalizations should never be assumed to be a blanket... every person must be judged for their actions as an individual.

And as a white male who has dated interracially, and who probably will again... if I ever marry and have children with a BW, I would not want the DBR term to be applied to my potential (arguably black) son by someone who had not taken the time to get to know him.

So the term is okay... as long as it is only used to denote males who ACTUALLY ARE damaged to the point where it's not worth being in a relationship with them, or that concept, and there's no assumption passed to black males as a homogenous group.

I'd like to think that almost anyone can realize the error of their ways and straighten their life around... so I think the "beyond repair" part of the term is a little relative... nevertheless I feel totally comfortable advising my daughter to stay away from relationships and best-friendships with DBR people.