Monday, June 28, 2010

How Black Women Change their Minds

Over the years I have discovered that black women often follow a perculiar trajectory out of the black matrix belief system (black thought system) that currently holds sway over black women, when they confront the BWE (Black Women Empowernment) thinking. more after the jump!

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What I do know is that society literally invisibalizes thin black women, emphasizes thin white women, invisibalizes fat white women, and emphasizes fat black women. This is nothing new. Therefore, black women are publicized and applauded for being fat while white women are not as visible.


When we prove that we're different from other women, that we're fat when they're thin, that we're strong when they're vulnerable, that we're loud when they are coy, when we're "independent" when they rely on marriage, when we say we are alone when they are loved... it makes others comfortable because we are effectively dehumanized and meant to accept a more degrading/downgraded existence than they are. And of course, others are totally comfortable with this place. When we state that this is positive, we agree with them!


I fully support "curvy" coming back (obviously, this is a personal bias)... But I REFUSE to endorse, support, or acknowledge black women being used as role-models for white female body acceptance and superiority, as is done with Queen Latifah as a Covergirl rep or Hattie McDaniel types in American Cinema. And I wouldn't if I were you, either....Stylized Conclusions
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The steps are:

Step 1: Black woman come into contact with the different view (BWE). Her likely response is outrage (how dare you transgress and disrespect our most sacred symbols and beliefs as black people!).

She however can't seem to dismiss as rubbish or keep away from this 'scandalous ideology' expecially as there are things within it's content that she cannot disagree with. However even as there is the dawning that the 'new' view might be the truth she needs to hear, and that she has been told lies over all these years, fear, and a big fear at that, takes hold.

This fear is particulaly because she begins to see that she might have to abandon the bulk of the black ideology which has anchored her identity, and also take such an action which has been categorized by BTS as an act of treason to her black race.

In addition, what is being suggested by BWE writing ie that she has been the victim of deep coverups and deception and has been betrayed by the black concensus and etc etc, is just too hard to handle that knee jerk rejection of the claims is the first response. Indeed imagine all the elaborate ideas and dreams sown deep into black women's hearts and minds over the years, ideas which have captured the imagination of black women and their passion, and suddenly BWE are sayin it is all a one sided con! Never.

This fear sees her rededicating herself to the 'black thought system' and 'black way' and redoubling her efforts in it, thinking that this is just an issue of her momentarily 'doubting' and a need for her to step up committment and understanding of the BTS argument (all her fault). She is at this stage also more likely to go back to the same gate keepers of the black thought system for reassurance, clarity and to rebuff this 'new' anti black thinking (as she terms it at this point). This is about the fear of breaking disloyalty tabboos, which the black thought system has cleverly enacted for the express purposes of preventing this sort of dissent and revaluation and by going back to the same gate keepers, she is essentially investing in maintaining her denial by giving them a chance to lock her back up in the black matrix thought system. However when black women have 'confronted' the BWE ideology, the seeds are sown.

Step 2: However the disloyalty taboos wears off and the next stage is likely anger at the deception over so many years and so much sacrifice in trying to do the right thing according to the dictates of the black concensus and its thought system.

Strangely the anger is often towards those who are causing her to wake up to the truth. This is mostly the case when a black woman has given so much dedication to race (through following the black thought system devotedly) and would thus prefer to not be woken up to the painful truth.

Step 3: Having watched black women go through this cycle of change for years I believe that some black women (a significant portion) actually go through what I term a 'self-spiting' phase which is characterised by understanding the truth yet insisting on continuing the path that is leading to broken dreams. Black women who rationalize and come up with 'justifications' as to why they 'deserve' to be in the bad way and defeat attempts to pull them free are deep in this self-spiting mindframe. However some black women simply learn to parrot the language and speech patterns of self-spiters eg those black women who come up with reasons why black women are 'underserving' of being married for instance or of having the benefits that other women freely partake in, are examples of those who parrot because they are unthinking (some black women are indeed stuck and cant detach themselves from this way of being), however other black women develop a deep malevolence towards black women and black womanhood which includes themselves and as such, embrace their own demise and become self-mockers!

Indeed I think in this self-spiting stage, some black women are unconsciously punishing themselves for being such fools, while others have understood that what is being asked of them is self annihilatory black patrotism, and have decided to be willing to go along

Step 4: On the other hand, there is the weighing up stage (silent reading and contemplating) with some black women which finally leads to a willlingness to accept a few ‘truths’ that are personally undeniable from the new manner of thinking.

For some black women there will finally be enough discord with the orginal thought system to cross over to the new way of thinking (BWE in this case). However for others they move to a mid ground and do not fully emerge into the BWE thought systems because they possibly have a personal resentment of the message bearers for a raft of reasons which could range from envy (why are they the ones who happened upon this important message or are showing the courage to confront BTS) all the way to resenting the the whole life upheaval caused by their 'teaching'. This mid ground could be a permanant place for many black women. A lot of black women who make a job of attacking or pitching themselves against BWE writers are to be found in this mid ground.

I have to reiterate that a key reason for 'midground settling' is dislike of the messangers and not wanting to 'submit or capitulate' to such message carriers. Nit picking of the BWE message and splitting hairs etc is a well known symptom of this posture which is born of a need to mark themselves out as 'different' to BWE thinking.

Another reason for staying in midground is anger with both sides (for different reasons), and a refusal to talk anymore about the issue, or refusal to hear what any has to say ('I am now my own thinker' etc posture).

Some information on BWE Aims and Objectives

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Questions to be sent to: relationshipadvice@dateawhiteguybook.com

45 comments:

Felicia said...

Great analysis Halmia!

As conditions continue to worsen and deteriorate in the dead "black community" (BM focused ideological construct) the rift between free self-actualized BW who are living and loving well and those who aren't will continue to widen.

Already there's a gulf but as a I say it's going to widen. Those unfortunate BW who've been exposed to the BWE message and yet still willfully choose to stay in self-denial will perish on multiple levels for multiple reasons that have already been discussed. As will their children if they have them.

The good thing is, those of us who've sounded the alarm and told the truth have a FREE conscious and don't have to beat ourselves up about a thing. We don't have to feel responsible for anyone but ourselves. We can sleep good at night because we know we did our part to educate BW.

We can continue to live and love well in the midst of Pompeii.

BW readers of this particular post need to identify themselves and where they are in this awakening process.

And if they're not in the process of awakening from their mass scale "black community" fantasy they need to understand that help and hope are NOT on the way.

And as more BW awake - and move on up to healthy, functioning, and greener pastures - they will be left TOTALLY alone.

Obviously without the help of BM - most of whom checked out DECADES ago - but ALSO without the help of other BW.

Those BW not on the road to normality and health need to understand that.

Those who ARE on the road to health and abundance will continue to have the support they need to make this necessary transition from this network of various BWE sites and blogs online.

And always remember ladies SPREAD THE WORD FAR AND WIDE.

And most importantly PRACTICE what is preached on these sites.

Have the courage to live and love WELL. In spite of DBRBM and DBRBW. Don't be another "black community" statistic/casualty.

You don't have to be.

Neecy said...

Well Halima,

I have come to the conclusion that mid ground BW and the others who do not want nor care to hear the realities - they will perish due to no fault of their own.

God has given these fools PLENTY of warning. He has also used BWE bloggers like yourselves and others to do the groundwork. I don't know what more BM and the BC has to actively do to show BW they are NOTHING to convince these foolish lost BW that they are doomed if they don't start looking out for self and what's best for herself as a WOMAN first.

All this race loyal "black love" CRAP (b/c that is what it is) is just another way for LAZY BW who don't want to have to work to change their thought process and situations to keep holding on by a string when they know its a done deal. I don't even believe they are in the hoping stage anymore. I truly believe these fools already know the outcomes but are too damn lazy to do anything at this point. Its like almost accepting their doomed fate. Committing suicide.

I am a firm believer that God will help everyone at some point, but he loves to help those that help themselves. All this Black man obsessing and worshiping is what has led the BC into disarray. I believe God has spoken. And he has given PLENTY of BW the good mind to make the RIGHT CHOICES for our lives. Many BW still don't and will never get it. They are too obsessed with worshiping a "KING"- the Black man. Being the spiritual and somewhat religious person that I am, I say they without a doubt WILL PERISH! These so called foolish Christian BW who read the word and go to church every Sunday and live their lives worshiping BM (and God at the same time) and praying for a BM are so foolish they do not realize they are voluntarily going against God's will. That's almost like asking God to send you a man based on vain traits (i.e. 6 ft tall, muscular etc etc). REALLY? you think that prayer is gonna be answered - asking for superficial things like his RACE? I think God has shown how far he is going to answer those prayers for a BLACK "KING". lmao

You got 50 million statistical articles, news reports and such pointing out to you YOU WILL NOT MARRY IF YOU ARE WAITING ON A BLACK MAN, and these fools still continue to ignore it. I mean at what point do people just say "to hell with them"? Nothing is going to convince these foolish BW! On another blog this BW said she was speaking with two FORTY YEAR OLD EDUCATED single BW about Interracial dating and expanding their options and all these dumbos could muster up to talk about as to why they don't want to is PENIS SIZE/SEX???? Really? These are the kinds of BW we are trying to warn and save?!

Neecy said...

"And as more BW awake - and move on up to healthy, functioning, and greener pastures - they will be left TOTALLY alone."


As they should be. I mean if actions alone are not enough to convince them they are on the train to doom, then our words mean nothing. I believe time wasted on trying to educate those fools is time better spent on creating environments for what i call PROGRESSIVE BW to fous on. We will need as many support systems, communities, networking ventures in place for each other as possible.

Bellydancer said...

Neecy I am glad you brought up the church angle because Deborrah Cooper has a article called:
The Black Church:How Black Churches Keep AA Women Single and Lonely on survivingdating.com
BW frequently go to church and the pastor for everything now that used to be the old model but that does not work now. Black people have changed, the black church could not survive if these bw married and their husbands refused to be pimped out by the pastor so the pastors play it safe and try to hold on to the these bw and their pocket change. If these women married real men there is not gonna be no $1000 blessings to the pastor, no trips for pastor and first lady, no cooking dinner for pastor if he is single and no running to pastor for advice.
These women need to spend their lil change (money) somewhere were it is needed.
Bills
Car Payments
Tuition (Theirs or their kids)
Nicer Apartment or Home

Anonymous said...

Bellydancer, those churches seem to be very weak and not following the bible on how a church should be. There are some good 'black churches' out there, but they have to be at least 65% male in them, and the men need to be mentoring the teenage boys,etc.What i'm saying is, not all 'blackchurches' are just shouters and no doers of the scriptures.

Shan said...

There is nothing wrong with asking God to bless you with the right mate. The problem is that many black women pray about superficial things. God looks at the heart, not the outer appearance.

The black women who are on this nothing but a black man bandwagon are annoying because black men will not only look past them but unapologetically pursue women who look nothing like their mothers or sisters. Black women are the laughing stock of the world.

Every time you holler about a black king, you increase his stock and decrease yours. Get a clue.

Anonymous said...

Also, Black Liberation Theology churches, are not churches in the bibical sense, because they teach hate of white men--that could be a factor why these women aren't going towards men who aren't black..just a thought

Faith said...

HALIMA!!!!!!

I swear you need to get out of my head!!

I was just thinking about this because I had an intense conversation with a woman who's trying to grill me basically about not being indoctinated. It went from the typical "why can't WE black people all get along" to the cause of our obstacles is due to poverty.

I think all of the BWE bloggers have dispelled the use of such nonsense to obfuscate the TRUTH.

I mean...really...these arguments against the Trinity & Morpheus rescue missions from the pods are ALL THE SAME but people don't even realize it!

Anonymous said...

On another blog this BW said she was speaking with two FORTY YEAR OLD EDUCATED single BW about Interracial dating and expanding their options and all these dumbos could muster up to talk about as to why they don't want to is PENIS SIZE/SEX???? Really? These are the kinds of BW we are trying to warn and save?!


These DUMB Idiots!!! I was actually speaking to 2 Fifty something educated black women a couple of weeks ago. One was a doctor and another was a senior vice president at a major corporation. I was telling them about the black woman crisis. The VP is still married (I believe--had not seen her in years and ran into her) The funny thing is that they agreed that things are bad for black women but the first thing that they started doing was putting down other black women. Basically saying that black women were "not ready for prime time". I was kinda suprised but I guess I should not have been.

Neecy said...

@ Bellydancer

I agree A LOT of BW are just tooo easily brainwashed through the Black church.

Don't get me wrong I go to a Black Church. But I go, sit, get the word and LEAVE! LOL. I don't stand around mingling, I am not joining the choir or doing all that extra stuff. I go to get the word, I pay my tithes (what is reasonable for me) and leave.

If more BW did this they would be better off.

I go to Church b/c for me I like to hear motivational speaking in my life and encouragement that relies on a spiritual factor. But too many BW take it to the extreme.

I was just talking with my grandmother this evening. And she was telling me about this Jamaican woman she knew a couple years ago, who lost her home, husband and assets b/c this FOOL was giving it all to the church and pastor.

Come to find out this pastor was molesting young children.

This women had the gall to EVEN TELL people that GOD told her to give up her car and catch the bus. this is stupidity at its finest!

I know I am getting off track here Halima, but I had to share that. I think it does fall in line with how BW hold onto to silly ideals and ideologies that do nothing but rip them of their good sense and sanity. Another example is when BW start talking about how they are being mistreated by BM in the community, Bm start reciting Black Queen poetry to shut em up. LOL. Just go on any Black blog or site where some BW start bringing up issues of how BW are being mistreated by BM and how MAYBE they should start looking out, and all it takes is ONE BM to start writing some Black Queen poetry to get them back in line. BW need to start being more PRACTICAL thinkers and get off this smoke and mirrors crap they often fall for in the BC and with BM and the Church.

Lever said...

Mid-point, if you will, may also occur because the BW is OLDER and her viable child-bearing years are gone. PERHAPS she doesn't yet know what to do.

I am aware of the sniping around and at BWE bloggers. However, not all BW who are "waffling" or struggling to go "forward" are firing those barbs.

May I submit that such "stubborness" isn't always about the BWE bloggers' bringing information or enlightenment? Please remain aware that a good number of us are not crabs-in-a-barrel; many of us don't move because they are in mourning or suspended animation.

I've noticed that BWE bloggers tend to be younger (though not young, i.e., in their 20s). These bloggers weren't born into and raised 'midst the "Black is Beautiful" (yeah, yeah: a lie and a tiny sliver of false hope; I know) movement (1960s- early
1970s) and really DID love the BC and embrace the race-based struggle in America as an honorable one. They also were the first generation to have graduate and professional school opportunities in large(r) numbers. Families were rearing their kids -- ESPECIALLY their smart, school-loving daughters -- to achieve, rise, matriculate, graduate! The mothers (and fathers) didn't want their daughters to be secretaries, maids, laundresses, nannies/mammies, or other such stuff reserved for BW in large part back then. NOR did they want their daughters saddled with out-of-wedlock children so sexuality was deemphasized, appearances weren't stressed (other than appropriate), and boyfriends had to be paraded before the parents and monitored. The mothers (and fathers) of these daughters BELIEVED that their girls would be so much more free and welcomed it with open arms and a pioneering spirit.

Only LATER would these same good mothers (and fathers) realize that BM weren't keeping up. Today? A number of these PARENTS (themselves in their 60s and 70s) feel as if they've failed their daughters. Today? Though their daughters are successes by any definition of professional, educational, and financial accomplishment? They are never-marrieds, childless, and out of their child-bearing years. (Freezing eggs wasn't a clear option and when it became one, these women were on the tip of the tail end of that scientific advancement.)

I know because I'm one of these daughters ... and my closest friends are, too. ALL of us were raised in two-parent, safe, secure, aspirational homes, irrespective of class (my parents were "pink" and blue collar employees; one girlfriend's parents are a doctor and a stay-at-home mom; another girlfriend's parents are a college administrator and a secretary). Most of our parents are still married; those whose parents aren't are widows or widowers ('cause that's how THEY rolled). Not one of us is doing the "rescuing the BC" thing, though we are generous with our time and resources. Some of us have gotten the message of BWE, yes. And since we DON'T have ticking clocks because our biological clocks have "stopped" (BTW: some of us never did have such a clock, as children weren't defined as "success") and since we aren't at our most youthful or attractive? We don't know what to do with ourselves, our lives, our futures, our romantic futures. Heck, we don't even know what to do with these new little lines, wrinkles, and pock-marked legs, bellies, and thighs. GIVE.US.A.MINUTE.DARN.IT. LOL! Because we have to navigate choppier waters with less of a clear chance to survive.

Felicia said...

"Another example is when BW start talking about how they are being mistreated by BM in the community, Bm start reciting Black Queen poetry to shut em up. LOL. Just go on any Black blog or site where some BW start bringing up issues of how BW are being mistreated by BM and how MAYBE they should start looking out, and all it takes is ONE BM to start writing some Black Queen poetry to get them back in line."

Those BW are obviously mentally ill. I bet a good number - if not the majority - are being mistreated by damaged beyond repair black males offline and these FOOLS are complaining and/or arguing and debating with damaged beyond repair negro males ONLINE? BW shouldn't even be communicating with most BM offline. Not any unless they are of value to them and have PROVEN it.

These BW are certainly laughing stocks. And that's one big reason why folks don't really take seriously black folks or have respect for many black women OR black males.

Because bm lack respect for women who share their features, and the 70% of black children they've created and abandoned (they hate their origins and physical reminders of themselves) and black women lack respect for THEMSELVES for limiting themselves to this growingly disturbed population.

These disturbed BW on these black message boards communicating with bm need to STICK to these DBRBM like glue. Because normal family oriented successful marriage minded WM who are on the TOP of the food chain will not accept a DBRBM's SCRAPS. Successful lasting marriages occur when BOTH parties preferred their mates to begin with and didn't bring some ridicules "racial baggage" with them.

Men aren't interested in women burdened down by feelings of guilt, "Racial responsibility", etc... Men just want to deal with and love ONE woman. Not a "community".

If BW can't leave the many sordid issues effecting the dead "bc", and the many sordid issues effecting many black males, then they shouldn't even think about entering an IR relationship.

They need to stay in Fantasy Island/The Matrix if they can't leave ALL of this insane baggage most BW are needlessly carrying.

Like I said... These humiliated "nothing but a bm" BW (who KNOW the truth yet CHOOSE to stay in the Matrix) need to STAY with their bm owners/puppet masters and stop the "threats". Because normal WM (and other non bm) aren't romantically interested in them. Not when the MAJORITY of women of all "races" on the planet think and behave rationally like they should.

Oshun said...

@ Anon

"I was actually speaking to 2 Fifty something educated black women a couple of weeks ago. One was a doctor and another was a senior vice president at a major corporation. I was telling them about the black woman crisis. The VP is still married (I believe--had not seen her in years and ran into her) The funny thing is that they agreed that things are bad for black women but the first thing that they started doing was putting down other black women. Basically saying that black women were "not ready for prime time". I was kinda suprised but I guess I should not have been."


This is why I was crazy as a teen and very young adult.

It is evil, evil evil! Trust this is only the tip of the iceberg.

I hope there is a special place in hell for elders like this..

ValeriesWorld said...

There are many of "good black churches out there", but as long as they speak the uncomprising word of God, also black women have to read the bible for themselves and ask the Holy Spirit to instruct them. When the Holy Spirit starts to administer in your life, the truth blows your mind.

The Black loyalty is absolutely rubbish and it destroys your life. Many black women have been talked out of their rightful husbands, as one friend told me, you have to have a strong relationship with God, the will of God is in the Bible, when he promises you something, he will not take it away, you have to believe, confess his word and take action. If you want a husband, go to different places, lose weight if necessary, change your style and be honest with yourself, if you want a black husband, it is no good living in an area where there are 10 black women to 1 black man and also change strategy and move.

One of the biggest things is that black women have to learn to love themselves, not a black man, black man is not God, no man is God.

The black consciousness movement is a get out clause that black men marry women other women who are non-black, anyone who insists that you must not marry a white man, is trying to cut off your blessing. Beware of them and if possible, leave the area. No one has a right to tell you who to marry. Many in the black consciousness movement told us, brainwashed us in nothing but a black man and when they marry an Asian woman or Arab, or another woman who is not black, when you confront them, they will tell you she is not white, but she is not black either and you are thrown.

Do not put your trust in princes, but put your trust in Lord. If you meet a man, he may not be black but he is wonderful in everyway to you and even your pastor comes and tells you that he is not your husband, question it in your heart, ask the Holy Ghost to reveal to you the truth and when he does and you find that the man is yours, ask the Lord to send you to the right church, because that church is not growing and it will destroy you!

Cherie said...

That is so on point about the weight. It's OK for black women to be fat, and I think it's because we're considered "less than" to begin with. Since we don't count as much as other women, what does it matter if we're fat?

The worst part of all of this, is as usual, the "black community". Women tell each other and their daughters that "you're just big" or that "sistahs are just bigger" compared to other women, or they use terms like "thick" or "BBW", anything and everything to avoid saying the truth: most black women are fat, and many are way past fat, and are obese.

These euphemisms tend to portray what is clearly way out of a normal weight as normal, or at worst, just a little bit above normal.

As the author of the post you linked to says, fat women are seen as damaged merchandise by society and potentail mates. Since potential mates assign fat woman a much lower value, they're more apt to abuse and/or use those women. I can't tell you how many times I've heard some overweight/obese black woam say, "My weight is just fine. I got a man. He like all this fine stuff." But all of us know what kind of man she has, right? Generally, it's a guy that isn't working, he drives around her car, lives in her apartment, she gives him money, while he's geeting into all the other P**** he can, and he sticks around until something better comes along, or, she gets tired of him and boots him out. And, immediately after kicking him to the curb, she desperately latches on to another freeloader, and he's in the crib a month later as her new "boo".

Having lots of affection-starved, big fat black women around works out nicely for these kinds of black male leeches.

And, further, this whole growing attempt at taking obesity of black women and trying to portray it as black women leading the charge for "fat acceptance" is just a cruel joke.

It's all just a sick pathology, this obesity issue among black women. But, woe to anyone who brings it up! You want to see angry black women, you'll be shouted down in a hurry if you dare to suggest that maybe it's time (collectively) for the sistahs to drop some weight and get healthy.

Shan said...

Don't let a black woman be thin and beautiful. OMG!! All the non black women get their panties in a bunch. But I am a petite woman, and I notice that white women really have a problem with it if you're black woman who is thinner than them.

Neecy said...

Thanks for posting this about the weight halima. I also commented on the Original bloggers site as well.

it boils down to this. WM are the most powerful men in this country. They typically don't find obese/overweight women as ideal mates (ON AVERAGE). Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why obese and large BW are always promoted in the media. Imagine if the same amount of attractive, thin, sexually appealing, normal acting feminine BW were on the screens as WW. What do you think will happen? I am not saying all WM are going to run to BW as mates. BUT there would be a lot more opening their eyes to the attractiveness of BW and possibly causing WW who currently hold the pedestal some competition.

WW and others are trying to hold onto what they have. This whole proud to be fat message is always targeted towards BLACK WOMEN AND GIRLS. How many obese overweight white actresses celebs do we see on average? How many WW are telling each other and their young girls to "accept and love their obesity in all its glory"? LMAO. NONE!

While I understand folks gotta look out for their own best interest and all, trying to manipulate BW into their own sexual/feminine/beauty demise is going to backfire big time. It just says that they don’t have the hold they think or want to have. I don’t need to manipulate another woman’s image to uplift my own if I got it like that? feel me? So in essence, WW are just looking our for their own best interest. And that's EXACTLY what BW need to start doing as well! Stop listening to this BS about loving your fatness. Its BS! There is nothing healthy or attractive about being FAT and obese- NOTHING. And you are just commiting dating/relationship/love suicide if you believe this.

What people don't want to ADMIT is alot of WW and BM have their hands in a lot of what wee see portrayed in the media. White men are often the blame for everything. I guess I don't really see what WM have to lose by showing attractive, healthy, fit, slim normal acting BW. A lot of casting is done by WHITE FEMALES. Especially in reality shows. typically white males provide the funding and more executive aspects in the media.

The fact is BW are just being manipulated through this whole "be proud to be fat" message by MAINSTREAM MEDIA b/c we are currently serving as others comfort zones - WW and BM.

Now BM are portraying BW in ways that make her undesirable as mates through messages that we are combative, evil, loud and mean to our men (see Tyler perry movies).

The bottom line is this. BW better learn to be just as SHREWD but stealth. The best revenge is improving ourselves and our health and bodies one by one. The more consistent messages we shove to each other that its Not okay to be overweight or obese eventually we will prevail.

As long as BW continue to allow others to puppet them into the lil caves and corners they want us to be in (for their own gains) we will always be at their mercy and contributing to our own demise as a collective.

ak said...

I really like that Stylized Conclusions website thanks Halima for that link. I hope more people visit that website over there.

Neecy said...

@Shan
"Don't let a black woman be thin and beautiful. OMG!! All the non black women get their panties in a bunch. But I am a petite woman, and I notice that white women really have a problem with it if you're black woman who is thinner than them."



Yep. i have a Black co worker who is very small/petite (like size 0). But she is definitley not sickly looking just really tiny.

Anyway, this White lady that works for the company comes up to her at one of our meetings and says very loudly "OMG You are so thin/skinny ARE YOU SICK!!"

I couldn't believe it. She was obviously verrry jealous. Why on earth would you walk up to someone and say that out loud like that.

but i liked my co workers response she said "no i have just always been NATURALLY THIN" LOL That shut the lady up real quick.

Neecy said...

And before anyone jumps on me when i say thin/attractive I really mean HEALTHY. i realize we all look wonderful and healthy at various sizes, weights and shapes, but when i speak of "FAT" and "overweight" and "obesity" i am talking about just that. not necessarily being curvy and in shape.

Anonymous said...

Neecy, I COSIGN COMPLETELY with what you wrote.

I hadn't given much thought to that angle before I read what you wrote. I don't think it's a conscious effort on the part of BM and WW, to them it just seems "right" that black women ought to be fat and loud and sassy, and further, always portrayed that way.

Let me ask everyone reading this the same question: Have you ever seen an attractive black woman (the same size as the average attractive white women) enter a room full of successful white men? Have you?

Well, I have. Many times. And some of those times it's been me and a knockout friend of mine entering that room. I'm here to preach, those guys notice you immediately. And they want to talk to those beautiful black women. They want to be near them.

That has got be a very ominous development to both black men and white women when they see that happen. It's got to be. Both of those groups would rather that black women stay fat and relatively (or grossly) unattractive.

Kudos, Neecy!

Shan said...

You are right those guys notice immediately. I've seen and even had that happen many times.

Neecy, women who obviously make ugly remarks like that are only telling on themselves. They are letting the world know that they are jealous. That has happened to me regularly. Let me tell you something else. If you're older than a white woman but look younger, all hell breaks loose. LOL

It has gotten to a point now that bm definitely see bw as competition. Other races of men take pride in other men finding their women beautiful, but it seems that generally bm get on edge if a non black man finds a black woman attractive. It's sickening.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I liked reading the materials from the stylized conclusions link--thanks for posting it.

I find it striking the way we have such warped standards of beauty, ie., through the fashion industry. One thing that gets me on track is the bmi chart, which explains acceptable weights and ranges for women, depending on their height.

So for example:

I'm about 5'7" tall.

Here are different possibilities of what I might weigh; each would put me into a different category of bmi:

67 inches tall and corresponding bmi:

121, 19

127, 20

134, 21

140, 22

146, 23

153, 24

159, 25

166, 26

172, 27

178, 28

185, 29

191, 30

198, 31

204, 32

211, 33

217, 34

223, 35

Weight Status

Below 18.5: Underweight

18.5 – 24.9: Normal

25.0 – 29.9: Overweight

30.0 and Above: Obese

There is a normal range of weight for women who are 5'7" tall, and what that means is that would look good on one woman might look emaciated and ill on another, ie., if she is small or big boned.

Cherie said...

I agree; both black men and white women would benefit from making sure that black women stay fat.

Although, it been my personal experience that WW don't really seem to care too much if you're dating a WM, and black men care a lot, to the point of coming up to you and challenging you about it.

I mean, WW see far more Asian women with white men here in CA, and then Hispanic, and then, in very small numbers, black women. They don't seem to really care about any of those interracial pairings with white men. Maybe it's because there are so many white men, they're not worried about running out.

Whereas black men have only black women to use, to fall back on they mess up. Even if they don't want a black women personally, they want to keep black women in that box, so that only they can take her out and play with her when the need hits them. Black women striking out on their own, or black women becoming attractive to other races of men in greater numbers will make BM very nervous. Their meal ticket is going to get up and walk away!

BM have far, far more to lose, it seems, than WW, in terms of black women getting a clue and black women becoming more attractive. Far more to lose.

Cherie said...

And another thing - unless you really believe that ish about "fat acceptance", then all I have to say is that you're being used. They're going to take the fat black chick and trot her out like a stage prop in order to further their own goals, because you're going to willingly offer yourself up as a spectacle to be viewed.

Angela said...

Neecy said: "This whole proud to be fat message is always targeted towards BLACK WOMEN AND GIRLS. How many obese overweight white actresses celebs do we see on average? How many WW are telling each other and their young girls to "accept and love their obesity in all its glory"? LMAO. NONE!"

That is exactly right. And it sure as hell isn't happening in Asian houses, either. Can you imagine an Asian mother telling her daughter that, that she should just be happy being fat? The whole idea is just ridiculous! Hispanic households? Forget it.

I'm laughing my ass off at the idea, too, but it's sort of a bitter laugh, because it's just more proof of how easily we black women are led around and manipulated into doing whatever people want us to do. By far the worst offender is other black people, especially males, but the media doesn't get a free pass here.

Neecy said...

SHAN SAID:
It has gotten to a point now that bm definitely see bw as competition. Other races of men take pride in other men finding their women beautiful, but it seems that generally bm get on edge if a non black man finds a black woman attractive. It's sickening.

ME:
This is verry true. If you look at the way WM respond to attractive WW who may be dating, sleeping with, married to or whatever to BM they may put down the BM but often times their response is to point out that the BM had to do everything in his power to get the attractive beautiful WW. Its never the WW is being used for sex, a sperm dumpster etc. EVEN IS ITS OBVIOUS she is being used. WM ASSUME first and foremost that their women are so superior that why wouldn't any man want to marry and be with them.

OTOH, look at the reactions BM make about BW who are dating interracially. The attack is never on the Non Black male. Its always puts the Non Blk male in power by saying he is using BW for sex. he will never marry her. Once he tires of her she will be cast aside. She isn’t nothing but a self hating "mammy". Calling hr a slave masters bed warmer. the lost goes on! BM automatically ASSUME BW as inferior and not worthy of being looked highly upon by males of other races. The only thing a BW can and does provide to NON BLK MEN is sex.

You are right Shan, its very sickening YET telling.

Simone said...

I agree, it takes a long time, progressing through various stages in order to change a BW's mind. You would think that there would some "A-HA" moment in most BW's life where they would suddenly realize they've been had, been lied to and fooled, and BM (and their BW apologists) have had them in this trick bag all along, but it never seems to happen that way.

Instead, it's the steady drip-drip-drip of the clean water of reality washing away the oily dirt of what has been hammered into them from birth.

Neecy said...

Anon 2:22 am said:
That has got be a very ominous development to both black men and white women when they see that happen. It's got to be. Both of those groups would rather that black women stay fat and relatively (or grossly) unattractive.

ME:
Better believe it. While they may not consciously do these things to BW, the fact is BW have allowed others to distort images of us so badly, that folks are not prepared (especially the ones who benefit off our distorted image) to deal with it. BM and WW are sooo spoiled and have never really had to worry about BW "stepping out of line" for the most part. So when a BW doesn't fall into who and what she is defined to be by society's terms, people get reeeal uncomfy. I have literally seen WW mistreat very thin and attractive BW they were threatened by while befriending and doing everything for the overweight non threatening BW. I seen it in the workplace TOO many times.

I say we make it easier for them. the more in shape healthy attractive feminine BW they see and have to deal with, they'll eventually adapt and become more at ease. LOL

Neecy said...

PIONEERVALLEY WOMAN SAID:
There is a normal range of weight for women who are 5'7" tall, and what that means is that would look good on one woman might look emaciated and ill on another, ie., if she is small or big boned.

ME:
I completely agree with this. I am 5'5. The charts and guidelines for 5'5 suggest that 120/125 is the ideal minimum weight and 150 is the maximum weight. if I were to EVER get down to 120 folks would think I was a crackhead. LOL! There are some 5'5 women who look amazing and healthy at 120. I am NOT one of em. In college I went as low as about 128/130 and I really didn't look healthy at all. My face was almost too manly looking and sharp with no roundness or fullness to it. I didn't look as young and glowing. Then I got to like 140-150 I looked perfect and healthy and attractive. But some 5’5 women cannot hold 140-150 and look healthy without looking overweight. When I tell some people I want to get back to 140 they cringe. Its like 140 is big or fat to them. But not on me it isn’t. shrugs

So we all have to decide that certain body types can carry the smaller minimum weight for our heights, while others can hold the maximum weights and look just as wonderful. I just think we need to be realistic and look at our body type and determine where we should all be to look and feel our best. That’s the key.

Simone said...

"Black Queen Poetry"?

This is new to me, I must admit. And these women go for this, it somehow soothes them and distracts them?

I don't even want to think about this, because if it's true, it makes BW look even more like world-class chumps.

It's like throwing a tennis ball a couple of times to get a dog's attention when you're busy working on the computer.

Unbelievable!

Neecy said...

CHERIE SAID:
BM have far, far more to lose, it seems, than WW, in terms of black women getting a clue and black women becoming more attractive. Far more to lose.


ME:

Now that I think about it Cherie you are correct. There are still waay more WW than BW so even if half of BW (4-6%) were to start dating White or Non Blk men exclusivley, it wouldn't mean much to WW.

But BM- well as you said. The Blk communities biggest fear is the loss of the meal ticket BW its harbored for so many years. There is a great fear. Once the BW leaves its a done deal.

BM do not EVER want to have to imagine they will have to COMPETE for the affections of BW with other races of men. That would mean they actually have to bring something to the table other than their penis and skin color. lol

Neecy said...

@ Angela,
Its true. No other races of women are telling their daughters to love and embrace being fat. While I agree many WW take the weight issue to the extreme (looking like bobbleheads and anorexics) I am not saying BW need to go there.

I am just saying we need to start telling our girls that being healthy and taking care of our bodies is important and that being obese and out of shape and fat is NOT good in many ways.

I just make a note to look at the average BW when i am out and about. I have to be honest and say I see more overweight obese BW than I do fit and in shape. And BTW I am one of those overweight BW! lol I am actually getting closer to my weight goal each day, but I allowed myself to allow stress and emotional issues rack up weight over the last few years. I'm so done.

Neecy said...

@ Simone I LOL'd at your tennis ball reference. YES Black Queen Poetry. never heard or read it? Visit a Blk forum. LOL.

As soon as the Black women start suddenly getting a little light bulb moment, they are ushered right back into brainwashed status by one or two Black men who come up reciting some "why I love my Black Queens" poetry OR one who claims "aint nothing a WW can do for me but show me where the next sister is". LOL. This stuff is real!!

Meanwhile the rest of the 99.9% of BM in the thread stomping on BW left and right, all it takes is one or two to give the sistas some hope and calm em down.

Its really sad!

Icon said...

Amazing post Halima!


"Another reason for staying in midground is anger with both sides (for different reasons), and a refusal to talk anymore about the issue, or refusal to hear what any has to say ('I am now my own thinker' etc posture)."

I think this is due to several unfortunate albeit curable reasons within the black female community. Because black women are lacking cohesive identity with other black women, we were conditioned against self-reflection and sisterhood. We were taught that black men were our people more than black women were our people (ANOTHER thing that makes us look unfeminine). And that other women don't need encouragement and advice as much as black men do. The same women that actively seek to encourage the men in their lives to do well, have an issue and even immediate shock via their own socialization with doing so for the women in their lives. Incidentally enough, this self-sacrificing and inability to encourage other women is NOT called "self hate".

In addition, black women, because we're considered "strong" are not as likely to embrace self-awareness and go on a journey of personal growth, so many women are uncomfortable with acknowledging that it's a necessity. "I'm too busy", or "I'm gonna let God take it away", or "learn to let go", are matras I hear everyday from black women to escape personal growth. Mental-illness is a HUGE under-reported phenomena within the BC, because we know that repressing hurt and anguish stifles mental development. ANY therapist would tell us that when we're disillusioned or suffering from grief to 1. Acknowledge the grief and anger. 2. Work out the grief, analyze the feelings of anger and why they are there. And 3. Release it.

THEN and ONLY THEN are we on the road to recovery. Incidentally enough, the grief over disillusionment and road to recovery some BWE bloggers provide are avoided by some black women who are CURRENTLY serving as therapists, encouragers, life coaches, career builders, achievement specialists and God knows what else, for men in their vicinity. Where's the sisterhood?

I say all this to say that black women looking out for other black women, whether politically, through advice, or through BWE empowerment must have an "angle" for genuinely looking out for the interests of other women like them. The black community is so backwards that unlike other communities, it is wrong, deviant, and even "self hating" for us to protect our daughters and for women to offer advice about life to other women. This is the breaking of a UNIVERSAL TRADITION of sisterhood and female bonding. I know what I've just said may have been said repeatedly, but I think that what you discuss is a prime example and an unfortunate circumstance of women protecting men, men protecting no one, and women being being left to fend for themselves.

Icon said...

" One thing that gets me on track is the bmi chart, which explains acceptable weights and ranges for women, depending on their height."

I agree Pioneer Valley Woman, but also (maybe this is my own issue for black women who are average, and are curvy NOT obese) is the waist-to-hip ratio. I've been to the midwest and raised in suburban areas and I see PLENTY (the VAST majority) of white women being overweight, and I think one slight factor in weight discrepancies MAY be that black and white women are measured by the apple shape with a small frame. It doesn't mean that black women can't stand to lose weight though.

The waist to hip ratio AND a waist measurement of a range in inches I think is slightly preferable and fairer than the BMI test. If you carry weight in your thighs and butt with a narrow waist vs. your stomach and arms it is favorable (read:safer). But the BMI measures an "apple" shaped woman who weighs the same as an hourglass/pear shaped woman, when the apple's carrying extra weight in her midsection and not her thighs or butt. A big "no no", according to the latest statistics. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

SImone said...

Black Queen Poetry:

I guess that would explain why I've never heard of such a thing.

Because I don't go on those sites; it gives me a headache. I used to think it was kind of funny, the stuff that's on there, but it is just sad now.

Plus, forget the message, the writing in the comments is just so elementary, it's as if a bunch of chattering 5th-graders are expounding on whatever pops into their fevered minds.

I guess I would be accused of "acting white", but all I'm asking for here is decent sentence structure and some kind of logical thought process.

(sigh) I guess that makes me a snob, I don't know...

Shan said...

Neecy,

You speak the truth like no other! As I've said in another post, in college when white men would come up to me to say hello and just hold a conversation black men would ask me why are all these white boys up in my face. I guess I got out of line. LOL.

White women don't bat an eye at bw/wm relationships if they are average looking but if the bw woman is beautiful then the claws come out because that means she is competition. Women in general actually let a woman knows she's beautiful just how they act around her. I've seen and actually experienced where a wm and I would be talking and out of the blue a ww would come and interrupt or she would just look at us funny like we're not suppose to be talking, and if we are laughing, they get a worried expression on their faces. I am not joking. See black woman don't know the kind of power we have.

So therefore, bm and ww don't want to see bw women wake up and come into our own because it would minimize their relationship.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Icon:

The waist to hip ratio AND a waist measurement of a range in inches I think is slightly preferable and fairer than the BMI test. If you carry weight in your thighs and butt with a narrow waist vs. your stomach and arms it is favorable (read:safer). But the BMI measures an "apple" shaped woman who weighs the same as an hourglass/pear shaped woman, when the apple's carrying extra weight in her midsection and not her thighs or butt. A big "no no", according to the latest statistics. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

My reply:

I don't think it is a matter of either/or.

The BMI focuses on weight in general, not how the weight is carried.

So within the guidelines of weight, we at least know of acceptable ranges for weight and height.

A great example, photo spreads of Crystal Renn, plus size model in V magazine--5'9" and 165, I think, next to another model of the same height but smaller frame--when she tried to look like the skinny models, she became anorexic! As a woman who is large boned, she is more comfortably on the higher end of the scale on the BMI.

That is why it is important to think about how tall a woman is, her frame size, and how the weight is carried when a woman is thinking about the clothes she wears and where she loses weight.

You make an important point, the waist measurement is helpful and important as well.

So for example, the latest information I have is that women should not have a waist measurement above 35 inches.

Combine that with the BMI, if a woman takes into account her waist measurement, how much does she weigh? What clothes can she wear? What fits her best?

Is she a pear shape? An apple shape? An inverted triangle, ie. bigger in the chest than the hip? Hourglass?

At least the BMI is a start, with as you suggest, waist measurements.

Renn, for example, is a 38-31-41 and wears a size 12.

By the way, I love your blog! I enjoyed the articles about body shape and size, your analysis.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Some further thoughts.

I haven't seen information lately about the waist to hip ratio, but I do recall that when I looked at it, I realized that the standard fits more closely to pear and hourglass shaped figures, while the waist measurement can apply to everyone.

An inverted triangle or a brick shape (like an apple, carrying weight in the middle, but with less weight there than an apple, and her chest and weight of equal measurements), as an example, will most likely not be able to reach that type of ratio--her body is just not built that way.

An example of healthy inverted triangle/brick shapes--Dara Torres, Olympic swimmer or Kim Cattrall of Sex and the City.

A heavier inverted triangle shape might appear top heavy with a slimmer waist and hips that don't appear as broad as the chest--a bust that appears to overshadow everything else!

uptownlook said...

Cherie/Neecy -

"BM do not EVER want to have to imagine they will have to COMPETE for the affections of BW with other races of men. That would mean they actually have to bring something to the table other than their penis and skin color. lol"
********

That's right, that's right, that's right! BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW that if black men had to compete in an "open market" for black women, that is, compete against other men of all races every day for the attention and affections of beautiful black women. BLACK MEN WOULD LOSE.

And they would just keep losing, over and over again, for the foreseeable future. There would be a lot of black guys on their lonesome.

To tie back to what another comment said, even if black men don't formulate this as a conscious thought, they know it in their subconscious. So the last thing they want is to compete with other race men for black women, because the results would be disasterous for them - sexually, financially, psychologically, etc.

Most black men don't have that kind of game. They can't play in the big leagues like that. Most of them are only attractive within the narrow context and confines of the black construct, and further, to black women that are completely indoctrinated to the tenets of the "black community".

If even half (50%!) of all black women considered men of all races, this would be a catastrophe of major proportions among balck males.

What I wouldn't pay to see that happen, even for a short, 12-month period! There would some serious attitude readjustment among black men, that's for sure.

Anonymous said...

"BM do not EVER want to have to imagine they will have to COMPETE for the affections of BW with other races of men. That would mean they actually have to bring something to the table other than their penis and skin color. lol"


ROFLMAO let's be honest ladies. These two "qualities" (lol) that BM think they they're "bringing to the table" are actually detriments. And that's why most women on the planet won't touch them.

The black males penis is directly responsible for the high level of AIDS and other STD's that are transmitted to BW (and other women) involved with them.

Plus, this is a White and light (Asians, Arabs, etc...) man's world. Not a black man's. White men FEED, cloth, and shelter black men. In this world (for a variety of well known reasons) lighter skin is a benefit (financially, socially, etc.) and those with white and other non black fathers world wide are doing better on all counts percentage wise then those with black (especially dark-skinned black) fathers. These are facts.

So it is truly laughable and baffling that anyone would consider a dark-skinned black male with a working penis as bringing something of worth to anyones table.

As long as WM (and other non BM) continue to feed, cloth and shelter BM - which is what a parent does for their children-they don't have any worthwhile "bargaining chips" what so ever.

Most BM simply haven't paid the cost to be the boss.

The vast majority of non BW already know this and that's why MOST non BW are doing better on multiple levels than your average BW.

ak said...

That has got be a very ominous development to both black men and white women when they see that happen. It's got to be. Both of those groups would rather that black women stay fat and relatively (or grossly) unattractive.

ME:
Better believe it. While they may not consciously do these things to BW, the fact is BW have allowed others to distort images of us so badly, that folks are not prepared (especially the ones who benefit off our distorted image) to deal with it.


No, I'm sorry but some WW and some BM are VERY conscious of letting their true colors show. When a BW does something wrong sometimes people are SO sure that she's done it all on purpose as if she can never make a mistake or act subconsciously. But somehow WW and/or BM never act intentionally or calculating? OK....

Kay said...

Wow. The Stylized Conclusions quote is exactly what I've been feeling for months and years now. That is why I would not spend a dime of my money on the movie Precious. Fat, manly, and unattractive is supposed to be the black female norm while thin, coy, and beautiful is supposed to be the white female norm toted by the media. I'll be damned if I tow the line in accepting that bull-shit. Excuse my french.

shimmy said...

wow,also. I may be late but I definitely agree with the conclusions. Many non black women do hate black women that don't fit into their racist stereotypes. Society in general hates black women that don't fit the racist images. This includes men and women from different races including blacks.

My negative experiences with non black women have been that if you're not the way they want you to be, they WILL hate you. This is not just white women either. Other non white women can be just as bad.

I want to say that this is not just limited to weight either. I have experienced this with the hair issue too. Many non black women hate to see black women with long hair that is not a weave. They take comfort in their racist view that they think we are all fat, ugly and wear weaves.

This is why I have been kind of angry with Oprah lately. I see her promoting bad images of us. She has promoted Precious and Chris Rock making a mockery of how some black women choose to wear their hair. She should know that many people love the image of the fat ugly black woman. She should know also that not all black women wear weaves and have short hair. Unfortunately some black women also promote these negative stereotypes of black women.