I keep getting emails from bm challenging things I have said by asking me to prove it(though many of them refute the stats that I do present). The truth is that these men want to leave me with no argument whatsoever, they know certain things cannot be readily proved at least with hard evidence and they might as well be asking me to prove that 'water is wet'lol!.
Some one said I should prove what I wrote in one of my recent articles; ‘90 % of bw who say a wm cannot love a bw the way a bm can have never dated out’. Another one said I should prove that bm prefer lighter skinned women! I ask you sisters, do we need to wait for someone to do a study to confirm what we see everyday with our eyes, what our instincts tell us despite the protestations of bm and other bw. Or maybe some of us think our instinct are only there to be ignored!
Let me tell you something sisters, Never Ever doubt your own experiences and the deductions you make from them! Never put what you know deep down aside for what folks tell you is the reality!
I think we have done a lot of that in the past to our detriment. Remember many black folks will never admit how dire things are or admit anything that could suggest a change of strategy is in order, they are invested in 'keeping hope alive' in the old way, and so if you are waiting on them to give you the go ahead to ‘try something new/a new way’, you will be waiting forever.
Trust me you don’t reach 70% singleness without a few alarm bells going off along the way. I believe we are at this crisis point as bw because we decided to ignore our gut instincts, our judgements on how things are and everything our eyes were clearly telling us, for some explanation that suited our romantic ideals about the black community. And there were many many folks who capitalised on this need to 'keep the faith' to put us off what we knew we had to do. Some of you will never get back the years you have lost by believing in someone else’s version of events!
Most of us trust an alarm system in the event of a fire. But what happens if the alarm system doesn’t go off and you see smoke or flames? Do you sit there waiting for the next beam to collapse or does your instinct of survival kick in. Some of you have been sitting in that burning house and there is just one beam left holding up the place and you are still sitting there waiting to be given permission to survive!
I am asking every bw to reactivate her survival instinct over this issue of relationship. Essence will not tell you its time to think differently (in fact they have just done another one of those bachelor things they do and there are no non-black male in the line up, and so the message remains, ‘keep your focus and hopes on bm!’), Ebony wont (they might but in a way that would make the option seem unappealing because they would rather keep you hanging around for bm). If the alarm systems have failed for whatever reason, let your instinct take over.
If I am saying anything on this blog that does not rhyme with your experiences then throw it away! If you know that all the BM around you dont celebrate light skin, dont expect you to be an unrewarded mule, are eager to marry you and the black women around them (and this is not just about your need to give 'vote of confidence' to your beloved race), then ignore everything said here. If however you know that a lot of what is said here resonates with your experiences then its time to move forward. I hear people repeat the mantra 'There are good bm out there'. What does your experience tell you? Does it say, ‘Yes keep searching’ or ‘keep your options open for all good men!’.
Sistas its time to get serious with taking our future. Some of you are acting like you have the proverbial 9 lives of a cat, and can very easily sacrifice one of them to your loyalty to the race, because the next time around you can open your options, but ladies this is it, this is the only life you have to live!
Mourn the dream of a black prince if you have to, but get up soon because there is a world of opportunity waiting and there needs to be some movement towards survival and towards the future. What has your experience been so far? What does your gut instinct tell you at this point in time? Listen and act accordingly!
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308 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 308 of 308I agree that it is important to "study" a man you are with to see if you would be compatible. Lots of people "date" and at the end of six months don't know much more about the person than they knew on the first date.
Don't rush, but don't waste time either.
Creolenola, I have no problem if I don't get married with children. What I'm more concerned with is having a wonderful and committed life partner. If children were desired down the road then I would have to be married. You can say I'm flexible on this issue. It's too early at this point, but the man I am seeing has mucho potential and could be the winner.
Most of the advice here can be taken and applied to women who are not looking for marriage per say, but who want and seek quality relationships. I think as these type of blogs continue to grow there will be more BW coming out expressing they want life partnerships but not marriage w/ children-that would make a great blog topic.
Everyone feels things in various degrees.
Once upon a time I had a GREAT job! So, I bought a nice home, had a nice car, etc. One day while driving home, I saw an AA lady asking for money on the streets when the light turned red.
In a good mood, I waved to her to come and gave her almost all the change I had.
She was so surprised. When I asked what's so surprising she replied, "black folks don't usually give me money!"
I was crushed. I gave. I didn't think about how AA kids laughed at me in high school, I didn't think about all those, ' you think you white?' comments because of my accent. I just gave because I saw she was in need. The humanitarian thing to do.
Anon 2:31pm. I hope when you see someone in need that you, too, will do the humanitarian thing.
As far as hating singers, actors, etc. I personally having no beef with performers, etc. I don't even really have a beef w/bm. Other commentors have stated the same sentiments. (I AM happy though that bw are recognizing their desirability in the world scene an not just sticking to a ..color)
I think I understand the other side. These performers are not "in need" On the contrary, they are in a position that they can help someone in need. Do they? That I don't know, I really don't keep track of performers.
If you choose to be upset at the ones who ARE upset at performers then you are just wanting to find problems. Cup is half empty, etc.
On the Other hand, when leading a group sometimes one has to pull things all the way to the other side if even to just hope ppl can open their eyes to even the middle ground.
Anyway, bottom line is lots of different positions were expressed and everyone is entitled to feel how they feel w/o getting attacked.
miriam
Giving money to individuals on corners is a good way to support someone's substance abuse habit. Also, corner begging has become somewhat of an industry and a way of life for those who participate. There is woman who has been begging on a corner near me for over 10 years and I have watched her become pregnant twice and gain about 75 pounds during that time. I have seen people passing their cardboard signs to the next person like they are running shifts and going into motels despite proclaiming to be homeless.
to Anon: that is very sad. (I hope you got the point of what I was trying to make).
~~~~~~
I also wanted to add that I do have something against DbR m and w who are toxic to others and Im all for promoting other -healthier- options for people.
Some black men claim that sistas are just plain unfriendly and won't speak to them on the street or in other public venues. Many of them don't realize or don't want to accept that this unfriendly demeanor is merely a defense against the unwanted attention or vile sexual harrassment by the many DBR men who line up to lewdly and loudly inspect the female "meat" each day in many urban areas especially. Many men have no idea how often some black women are subjected to this kind of public humiliation on the daily. I've experienced this many times myself, so I can speak from painful experiences about this.
The above comment is from Evia's new post (Sorry Halima - I wish she would turn her comments back on! With moderation!) where she coins yet another acronym - ATBU (Arrangements to be Used). She is referring to some of the dead-end "relationships" that she read about here.
I just wanted to give a hearty co-sign to this particular statement. Believe me when I tell you it is hard walking down the streets of NYC as an attractive black woman! I used try to "tone done" my look at bit, meaning I would wait until I got to work to apply my makeup and I would try not to wear dresses too often so I wouldn't get comments on my legs. It rarely worked, so I just stopped that.
Now, I have an iPod, so I can tune them out and I DO NOT make eye contact with black men on the street because they feel that they can say ANYTHING to you.
@ the ladies who aren't interested in marriage....may I ask why?
I'm actually on the fence. Given where I'm at in my life, marriage may not be in my financial interest so I would need to be VERY comfortable with the financial status of any prospective husband.
However, if that weren't an issue I don't quite understand the reluctance to be married and why that's less desirable than a long-term committed relationship.
Enlighten me. :)
The above comment is from Evia's new post (Sorry Halima - I wish she would turn her comments back on! With moderation!) where she coins yet another acronym - ATBU (Arrangements to be Used). She is referring to some of the dead-end "relationships" that she read about here.
Yes, Kara, the ATBU is not just a dead end relationship but a dead end one in which the woman is being royally screwed over or "used." It's one of the MAIN reasons why I do my blog--so that sistas will know that there are other options and they can choose NOT to remain in this type of demeaning situation. It really is a choice. I've known some sistas in these arrangements and when I thought back about it last night, I realized I wouldn't even let them tell me the details. LOL!! My blog is, I guess, a way for me to help the many bw out there since I couldn't help some of the women I've known personally.
And re turning back on the comments feature on my blog--oh no! LOL! I don't have nearly the patience that Halima has with these fools. My blog would have really degenerated, which is exactly what the trolls want.
I just wanted to give a hearty co-sign to this particular statement. Believe me when I tell you it is hard walking down the streets of NYC as an attractive black woman! I used try to "tone done" my look at bit, meaning I would wait until I got to work to apply my makeup and I would try not to wear dresses too often so I wouldn't get comments on my legs. It rarely worked, so I just stopped that.
I really feel ya on this. Even though, it's been a while since I walked down a large urban city street, I can still clearly remember some of the things that were said to me years ago. I know how that takes away from your personal freedom of just being able to walk down the street without being bothered. Yeah, the "tone down" and "cover up" never work. I even would change my route which would sometimes require me to walk a much farther distance or all out of my way, just for the freedom of being left alone.
Now, I have an iPod, so I can tune them out and I DO NOT make eye contact with black men on the street because they feel that they can say ANYTHING to you.
The Ipod is a great idea!
I hope someone (Evia? Halima? anyone else??) write about this "sell out" name calling.
Here, all the way in Israel, I am physically distant from a lot of the DBR bm so that may be why I am not feeling as strongly about it. However, I know that this type of "emotional extortion" does exist. How do you all deal with the name calling?
"Now, I have an iPod, so I can tune them out and I DO NOT make eye contact with black men on the street because they feel that they can say ANYTHING to you."
True-another suggestion. Start wearing your hair natural or just buy a TWA wig. Then Poof!-you'LL be darn near invisible to bm street harassers. You could throw in a pair of glasses for extra effect.
I'm only partially kidding here.
Yes, Kara, the ATBU is not just a dead end relationship but a dead end one in which the woman is being royally screwed over or "used."
I hear you. That is one of the main reasons I have not been in a relationship - I could sense when I was being used. It was always about utilizing connections through my jobs, friends - sometimes it's not money. But quite often, it is.
I've known some sistas in these arrangements and when I thought back about it last night, I realized I wouldn't even let them tell me the details. LOL!! My blog is, I guess, a way for me to help the many bw out there since I couldn't help some of the women I've known personally.
I know women in this situation too. In fact, I think we should point out that sometimes, the user WILL marry you if it's to his benefit. Think about it, we talk about these men that don't want to get married all the time. These guys are not trying to marry any woman if she's not willing to be used (i.e., fund his business or introduce him to certain circles).
I think there is definitely something to that. It's similar to certain black politicians that want to use black women and don't want anything to do with us except for votes or to work for them.
For instance, I have a friend that married a guy that I am SO convinced only married her because she makes excellent money. I don't always feel that, but I think it's true in this particular case. He had a slew of girlfriends before her that did the same things she did - cook, clean, watched his children - but he didn't marry them. None were in a position to help him financially (with his mortgage and other debt). In fact, he let one of the women basically grovel and ingratiate herself to mom and sisters in an effect to snag him.
Then my friend comes along and they do end up getting married. After all, her salary was able to supplement his child support checks (taken directly out of his account) and other big bills like the mortgage on his house (only his name was on the deed).
They don't have that "build together" focus many couples have. It's all about him and his needs.
True-another suggestion. Start wearing your hair natural or just buy a TWA wig. Then Poof!-you'LL be darn near invisible to bm street harassers. You could throw in a pair of glasses for extra effect.
I'm only partially kidding here.
So true!
My hair is natural and you are so right - it's like I'm invisible to black men. I had the worst street harassment from black men when I wore my hair long and straight (ala Gabrielle Union).
I find that white and other non-black men notice me more with the natural hair.
LOL! You know it's funny you said that cause I wear my hair natural as well as I wear glasses too. And what do you know?....I'm invisible to BM on the street.
Just an FYI ladies. I found this at NPR.
Study: Ethnicity, Education Linked to Domestic Violence
Tell Me More, August 20, 2007 · A study from the University of Arkansas suggests that college-educated, African-American women are at a greater risk of being abused by a spouse or significant other.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=13744340
Okay, ladies (& gentlemen) - second date with Mr. Nice Guy last night went wonderfully. We are on schedule for coffee after work on Thursday and dinner on Friday. Now, remember, I met him on CraigsList - he responded to my ad. It can be done.
Now, remember, I met him on CraigsList - he responded to my ad. It can be done.
Wow... Craigslist makes me nervous. I'm happy things are going great and I wish you the best, but I'm curious - Why did you choose Craigslist?
I know women in this situation too. In fact, I think we should point out that sometimes, the user WILL marry you if it's to his benefit. Think about it, we talk about these men that don't want to get married all the time. These guys are not trying to marry any woman if she's not willing to be used (i.e., fund his business or introduce him to certain circles)
Yep. I've heard this too--that some men at the very lower income scale will marry in order to improve his income situation. This means that the woman MUST be working, and she must continue work, even through a difficult pregnancy, illness, etc. She must work even if he doesn't.
This is why I think it's better to be at least equally yoked for a woman and if possible, a woman should always marry up--NEVER down. Now, I realize that some people will try to make this sound snooty or bougie, but this is why the "class" system developed in most societies in the world. It's very difficult for people with starkly different socioeconomic levels to mix comfortably because the so-called have-nots will want what the haves have and in some cases will resent them for it if they don't give it to them. I fell out with one of my girlfriends from college because she felt I should constantly lend (give) her money to pay her electricity bill or phone bill. She never got a professional job and she'd had 2 kids by this guy and he took off.
My husband's large family is a few steps up from middle class. I've noticed that they don't ever mix with the Billy Bob types. All of the women are married to men who are on their level (income, status, education, etc.) Some of the men who are not on the same educational level as their wives have businesses or do things that bring in more money or other perks, and may have more status than the wife's job. For ex. one of my brother-in-law's is a minister of a prosperous church. His job enables the family to live for free in a beautiful home (parsonage) drive and for the whole family to fly anywhere in the world for free, eat practically for free, and the church picks up other expenses too. Meanwhile, she's a nurse.
Ndelible said:
"Okay, ladies (& gentlemen) - second date with Mr. Nice Guy last night went wonderfully. We are on schedule for coffee after work on Thursday and dinner on Friday. Now, remember, I met him on CraigsList - he responded to my ad. It can be done."
Wow, that sounds great. Go ahead, girl. After work coffee, I like that very much. Good luck.
Kara asked why I chose CraigsList for my ad.
Simple economics - have you tried eHarmony? $30 a month to get matched with a bunch of guys who don't want you. I was on that thing for months and had one, count 'em one date. No second date. Waste of money and time. My bestfriend tried CL and had success, so I figured I'd give it a shot -- didn't cost me anything. I just wrote an ad and then kept refining it; you have to, most people only look at the current day's ad. By the third day, I had better quality men responding. Those that weren't, quickly got deleted. It doesn't hurt my feelings if they send a revealing pic - probably wasn't them anyway....
Ndel's World
You know,
Right now as I sit here - my hair is a mess, my body hurts from all the workouts, a little sleepy from staying up a bit too late - but I feel beautiful.
I am passed the DBR-BM, and i am not ATBU. Instead of gleefully skipping over the red flags for the sake of a relationship, I see them and quickly release.
I have healed and am open to a healthy relationship with a man race/color not important.
I am glad you keep posting/blogging. Just remind the guys emailing you, you are not talking about ALL BM, but it is also nice that BW are awakening and aware, that BM's aren't their only choice for men for having a wonderful lasting relationship.
a woman should always marry up--NEVER down.
That's very shallow Evia. I make 50k a year. My wife makes 80k a year. I guess she shouldn't have married me right? *smh*.
Kara asked why I chose CraigsList for my ad.
Simple economics - have you tried eHarmony? $30 a month to get matched with a bunch of guys who don't want you. I was on that thing for months and had one, count 'em one date. No second date. Waste of money and time. My bestfriend tried CL and had success, so I figured I'd give it a shot -- didn't cost me anything. I just wrote an ad and then kept refining it; you have to, most people only look at the current day's ad. By the third day, I had better quality men responding. Those that weren't, quickly got deleted. It doesn't hurt my feelings if they send a revealing pic - probably wasn't them anyway....
Thanks. I'm still too chicken to do it though, but I was curious about the process.
That's very shallow Evia. I make 50k a year. My wife makes 80k a year. I guess she shouldn't have married me right? *smh*.
It's not shallow. For most of us, it's self-preservation. Not every man that makes less is a user of course, but there are enough for women to keep their eyes open because most people, especially "the community" don't have our back anyway.
And we really don't care anymore what you think about it.
Not that we don't already know this, but I was just skimming through a book written by pre-eminent evolutionary biologist Joseph Graves. He says: "Males should compete among themselves over opportunities to mate. Conversely, females should be choosy. One of the most important traits that human females choose in a long-term mate partner is access to material resources. So males who control wealth are more likely to win the woman they desire. Males may attempt to institute social dominance over females to curtail their reproductive choices." p77 THE RACE MYTH--WHY WE PRETEND RACE EXISTS IN AMERICA, by Joseph L. Graves, Jr.
(I don't usually cite references because I discovered they usually don't matter. People will still believe what they want to believe. LOL!)
Sistas, many bm may/will attempt to curtail your looking elsewhere for mates due to the dynamics of evolutionary biology. Their behavior is not surprising. This is just male behavior, but also notice that females will tend to look for males who can 'bring home the bacon.' At least the sensible females will do so.
Don't let anyone make you feel bad or "shallow" about looking only towards the males who can and will provide and protect. This is just NORMAL female behavior.
So to the commenter who calls me "shallow," if your wife is happy with you, why do you care what I think? And you do care because that's why you made the comment. LOL!!
Trvlrgrl said...
@ the ladies who aren't interested in marriage....may I ask why?
I'm actually on the fence. Given where I'm at in my life, marriage may not be in my financial interest so I would need to be VERY comfortable with the financial status of any prospective husband.
However, if that weren't an issue I don't quite understand the reluctance to be married and why that's less desirable than a long-term committed relationship.
Enlighten me. :)
Well in my case I am in my mid 30's and have hit the point where I am not open to compromise. I don't want to please anyone else but myself. I had a reality to face that for me marriage was something I could have done when I was younger and building but now that I have built (a good bit) and have my own I don't wish to share. That is why to me the pefect union is between two people who have their own seperate things going on but come together for whatever lol. I think I have been single for a long period of time and have come to enjoy the freedom of making choices without consulting or having to think of others. This is not to say I don't wish for companionship but not at the expense of my freedom. So it is very difficult to find men. lol. I thought most men would love a relationship without the pressure of marriage but that seems not to be the case. The more I am disinterested in marriage the more I meet marriage minded men. lol. Murphy's law I guess. When you tell a man your not interested in marriage they are often confused I think they think all women have a goal of marriage and kids. My dreams are more of a life of lovers, friends, and freedom.
Head Up Sistas and their Interracial Admirers! For those of you in the NYC region--on August 29th MULTIMIXX is having a CHOLAT: Labor Day Mixer for Black Women and their Interracial Admirers at Alibi on MacDougal Street. Contact" admin@MULTIMIXX.com
The men will be ages 25-40. You must register in advance.
Now, if I were a single sista looking for a man, I'd be there! LOL!
Sistas, many bm may/will attempt to curtail your looking elsewhere for mates due to the dynamics of evolutionary biology. Their behavior is not surprising. This is just male behavior, but also notice that females will tend to look for males who can 'bring home the bacon.' At least the sensible females will do so.
Don't let anyone make you feel bad or "shallow" about looking only towards the males who can and will provide and protect. This is just NORMAL female behavior.
Exactly. They're just using the old "golddigger" trick.
So to the commenter who calls me "shallow," if your wife is happy with you, why do you care what I think? And you do care because that's why you made the comment. LOL!!
Isn't it interesting how most Anon BM that come here claim to be "married to a black woman".
If you are a married man, what do you care about our relationship and marriage choices? How do you just "happen" upon a blog for interracially interested black women?
I hate to highjack this thread but for the successful single sitahs outhere, where can I get some career advice, websites..blogs, any info would help, thanks in advance. (BTW, I graduate 2yrs ago with a BA)
please email me at
oskanabaul@hotmail.com
I am the previous anon....I meant any successful sistah not just single. (correction)
a woman should always marry up--NEVER down.
That's very shallow Evia. I make 50k a year. My wife makes 80k a year. I guess she shouldn't have married me right? *smh*.
Anon @ 10:14 PM,
You appear to be emotionally attached - for whatever reason - to Evia. And obviously put great stock in her opinion of you, your marriage, and your financial situation. Even though you don't personally know her. This is not healthy behavior.
I suggest you solely concern yourself with your wife's opinion of you. Since her opinion is the only one that should matter to you anyway.
Anonymous said...
I hate to highjack this thread but for the successful single sitahs outhere, where can I get some career advice, websites..blogs, any info would help, thanks in advance. (BTW, I graduate 2yrs ago with a BA)
please email me at
oskanabaul@hotmail.com
Try Ladies Who Launch at www.ladieswholaunch.com for entrepreneurial interests
Career Journal (by the Wall Street Journal) for career.
http://www.careerjournal.com/?cjsource=network_collegejournal
Also, two interesting books (can you tell I've been looking for work?)
1.) Corporate Confidential: 50 Secrets Your Company Doesn't Want You To Know - And What To Do About Them by Cynthia Shapiro -
http://www.corporateconfidential.com/
2.) Nice Girls Don't Get The Corner Office by Lois P. Frankel, Ph.D.
http://www.drloisfrankel.com/books/cornerbook.html
creolenola said
Well in my case I am in my mid 30's and have hit the point where I am not open to compromise. I don't want to please anyone else but myself... I think I have been single for a long period of time and have come to enjoy the freedom of making choices without consulting or having to think of others. This is not to say I don't wish for companionship but not at the expense of my freedom.
An interesting perspective... but truthfully, I'm wondering if you really want a relationship at all...or love...because it's hard to imagine a loving relationship of any kind if you're not willing to compromise or consider the needs of your partner... Not being critical, just wondering how you reconcile wanting companionship and connection without compromise or consideration. Are you just looking for sex and someone to hang out with on occassion? Again, not criticizing, just trying to understand.
Evia said...
(I don't usually cite references because I discovered they usually don't matter. People will still believe what they want to believe. LOL!)
Please do as much as possible. A lot of us are searching for material.
@NDEL
How did the guys on CList respond to you? Did they seem to want to just hook up?
An interesting perspective... but truthfully, I'm wondering if you really want a relationship at all...or love...because it's hard to imagine a loving relationship of any kind if you're not willing to compromise or consider the needs of your partner... Not being critical, just wondering how you reconcile wanting companionship and connection without compromise or consideration. Are you just looking for sex and someone to hang out with on occassion? Again, not criticizing, just trying to understand.
What I am looking for is a friend and lover. Someone who is willing to be as honest and open with me as I am with them. I think people feel that you have to have this bond or chemistry with someone inorder for there to be love. Love comes in many different forms in many different ways. I view love as respect, acceptance, as having someone's back when they need it, as being a friend when they need one and when they feel they don't. I am not looking to spend my life with any one person this doesn't appeal to me but that doesn't mean I am not looking for love. I believe we have many loves in our lives and why not it is a great feeling to be in love (even to be in lust..lol) Why not be free to explore those many loves? Why be tied to one person? (Again this is my personal belief and not me downing marriage for others) It seems rather boring. When I am honest with myself about my thoughts on the prospect of marriage I find it to be better for me to be truthful with myself and others that marriage and kids are not what I am looking for.
"On a sidenote, since we are in a way talking about entertainment, why is it that on a show like Grey's Anatomy, which is producer, written by a bw, where there are irr flying left and right, yet there are no bw on there in irr. The only sista on there, who I do love and think is a great actress, but she still fits the stereotype of the anger, overweight, not a sexual bombshell type with seemingly no life outside work. That is why I stopped watching that mess. "
I have stopped watching for the exact same reason.
And what's so sad is she is a very beautiful woman, but on the show they have her as this unattractive Asexual woman.
You appear to be emotionally attached - for whatever reason - to Evia.
Being that that was my first post, you are apparently confusing your anons.
Evia said...
(I don't usually cite references because I discovered they usually don't matter. People will still believe what they want to believe. LOL!)
That's because there are generally no references for what you say. You make things up.
Jesus, talk about a wakeup call! You just made me want to call every white man in my contact book! LOL.
PLEASE keep up what you are doing. I am so inspired by this site... and look forward to contributing in the future.
BTW I am a systems engineer, so if you ever want to expand on the internet, just say the word and I will help you do it for free. I believe that much in what you are doing.
Anonymous said...
You appear to be emotionally attached - for whatever reason - to Evia.
Being that that was my first post, you are apparently confusing your anons.
3:37 AM
Being that out of this entire convo, you picked that comment of Evia to make your supposedly "first" post, you are definitely attached. LOL!!!!! She doesn't even know you, why should you give a hoot what she thinks about your marriage? Are you afraid your wife is reading this blog and having second thoughts?
Welcome arfenton and thanks for your kind offer, i may just have to take you up on it lol!
glad you enjoy the posts.
Thanks so much for all the supportive feedback.
Ndelible: Thanks for that practical advice. I am taking notes. And your mom sounds hysterical. :)
pioneervalleywoman: I will stop by your page and look at your book list. :)
Thank you Sara. I came to that conclusion as well, but unfortunately after so much damage had been done. I wish I knew then....
I appreciate your kind wishes and support.
Being that out of this entire convo, you picked that comment of Evia to make your supposedly "first" post, you are definitely attached.
Nope. Because out of all of the posts here, that was the one that was so ridiculous that it had to be addressed. Since your last post, it has not become the second most ridiculous.
Are you afraid your wife is reading this blog and having second thoughts?
Are you envious of the fact that she is a wife and you're not?
Are you afraid your wife is reading this blog and having second thoughts?
Are you envious of the fact that she is a wife and you're not?
To the Anon that asked if the BM troll Anon was afraid if his "wife" is reading this blog - that is exactly what I thought. Let's say he really does have a black wife Did he find this blog in her internet surf history? A happily married black man is not worried about hanging out at a black woman's relationship blog.
Especially with his petty dig ("Are you envious of the fact that she is a wife?) because there are single women here, but as evidenced by Evia, Aimee, Pioneer Valley Woman and others, there are also a lot of MARRIED BW on this blog. The fact that he is resorting to the old "taunt the bw because she doesn't 'have a man'" tactic tells you something. The troll is one of three things:
1.) A BM in an unhappy marriage with a BW that he feels could probably go IR. She probably liked the movie "Something New" too much or talks (admiringly) about a BW girlfriend of hers in a happy IR.
2.) A DBRBM who is married or dates IR exclusively and hates BW.
3.) A single DBRBM who feels inadequate and constantly strikes out with - and is especially resentful of Black women. The constant news about BW being more open to IR is bad news to him.
Either way, he needs to take his pathetic self over to tiredblackman or one of the other anti-black women blogs.
I see comments all the time asking for statistics or references as proof to what is being posted on this blog! Check it out for yourself. The first is from the Department of Health and Human Services based on the 2000 US census. The other links are to scholarly papers by researchers looking into AA sociological problems. BW need to educate themselves to the facts about the condition of the AA community.
Thanks for posting those statistics.
Among the stats you posted was the infamous stat for never married black women (42.4%). It was the inspiration for the movie "Something New" according to the screenwriter, Kriss Turner, a single BW. In fact, she originally named the movie "42.4%"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/27/AR2006012701891.html
Are you envious of the fact that she is a wife and you're not?
[sigh] Envious?! I feel sorry for your wife. How emotionally engaged can you be if you are over here trying to tell OTHER women what to do. Why are you so interested in what OTHER bw do??? Perhaps if you spent more time getting an education instead of hassling other women, you just might be able to step up and take the burden of supporting the family off of your wife's back.
Wow kara. First of all, the original petty dig was the silly statement about my wife having second thoughts. One petty statement deserves another.
Second of all, this site was referenced on another blog. My wife, as far as I know, doesn't read blogs. Black women expanding their marriage options is great and seems the smart thing to do. I don't think that race should trump love. But to sit up and say that a black women, or any woman, should NEVER marry down (meaning marry a man with an income lower than hers) is ridiculous. If a man is employed, a hard worker, reponsible, and of good character and she loves him, then what's the problem? If a woman individually doesn't want to marry a man of a lower income, then that is her choice. But to state it as some type of rule that should be followed is as pathetic as stating that a woman should never marry outside of her race.
gatamala
I'm 25 years old with a 50k annual income that will rise as time goes on. My wife is a 28 year old attorney who makes 30k more than me.
How in the hell am I putting a financial burden on my wife when I have an income that keeps me totally self sufficient? Your are just being quite stupid now. Where have I told anyone how to live? I addressed someone who ignorantly told other people how to live by saying that no black woman should ever marry a man who makes less money than her.
It's telling that you ASSUME that I am black and then make stereotypical assumptions about my education level. I have a graduate degree. Try again.
Wow kara. First of all, the original petty dig was the silly statement about my wife having second thoughts. One petty statement deserves another.
Second of all, this site was referenced on another blog. My wife, as far as I know, doesn't read blogs. Black women expanding their marriage options is great and seems the smart thing to do. I don't think that race should trump love. But to sit up and say that a black women, or any woman, should NEVER marry down (meaning marry a man with an income lower than hers) is ridiculous. If a man is employed, a hard worker, reponsible, and of good character and she loves him, then what's the problem? If a woman individually doesn't want to marry a man of a lower income, then that is her choice. But to state it as some type of rule that should be followed is as pathetic as stating that a woman should never marry outside of her race.
No, I believe it was the "dig" where you accused Evia, in all of your 25-year-old wisdom, of "making things up."
You got your back up because she stated that a woman should not date a man that makes less money than she does. This is a self-preservation measure for most women because far too many either have been used financially or know women who have been used. We're not talking an 80k/50k situation here. We're talking the 80k attorney dating the 30k bus driver and making his child support payments. It happens. If you don't fit the bill it does not negate the women who have been burned by those who do. Far too many black women get caught in the "helping a brotha out" trap, which is quite the opposite of the tired "golddigger" label most try to pin on black women.
It's telling that you ASSUME that I am black and then make stereotypical assumptions about my education level. I have a graduate degree. Try again.
The same thing goes for white and other non-black men by the way :)
No, I believe it was the "dig" where you accused Evia, in all of your 25-year-old wisdom, of "making things up."
I never accused her of any such thing. I'll label my posts from now on.
making his child support payments.
Where did this come in? All men who make 30K are paying child support? Did you know that 30K is a common income for school teachers, police officers, firemen, etc. depending on where you live?
Slim
3. The Negro must keep himself, his children and his home clean and make the surroundings in which he lives comfortable and attractive.
I think that this was geared more toward black women since this was overwhelmingly at the time viewed as 'women's work'. The term "he" is generic.
Anonymous said...
Evia said...
(I don't usually cite references because I discovered they usually don't matter. People will still believe what they want to believe. LOL!)
That's because there are generally no references for what you say. You make things up.
This isn't true, but the persistence of claims like your's was one of the motivations for me starting my blog. I saw that certain people would constantly "troll" Evia and Halima's sites and essentially attack every word they said by asking for some sort of statistical or evidentiary support for their claims--which, when provided, they would either ignore or reject. I thought, "fine--I'll set up a blog that includes a nice, lengthy sidebar full of articles and stats for people who want lots of 'proof.'" Hey--I'm a "proof" type of gal myself!
My listing is hardly exhaustive, but I try to add to it regularly, and if you have info you want to share that you think is more accurate than what is out there, please feel free to let me know--I would love to include it.
http://blackgirlshaven.blogspot.com/
Anonymous said...
Being that out of this entire convo, you picked that comment of Evia to make your supposedly "first" post, you are definitely attached.
Nope. Because out of all of the posts here, that was the one that was so ridiculous that it had to be addressed. Since your last post, it has not become the second most ridiculous.
Are you afraid your wife is reading this blog and having second thoughts?
Are you envious of the fact that she is a wife and you're not?
2:04 PM
Oh please!! I am happily married and I have 2 children. My husband is white. I am reading this blog because I enjoy reading about other black women who are daring to branch out into IR and I want to support that. Now, WHY ARE YOU, a MARRIED BLACK MAN, READING THIS BLOG? If I was married to a black man, I would be WONDERING why he is spending his time on blogs devoted to black women interested in IR.
Anonymous said...
No, I believe it was the "dig" where you accused Evia, in all of your 25-year-old wisdom, of "making things up."
I never accused her of any such thing. I'll label my posts from now on.
Fair enough.
making his child support payments.
Where did this come in? All men who make 30K are paying child support? Did you know that 30K is a common income for school teachers, police officers, firemen, etc. depending on where you live?
I used the 30K figure as an example of a lower income. You're being disengenous like most BM who don't have our best interests at heart.
When I mention a woman "helping" a guy pay HIS child support payments - that too was an example of women being used. It's not about school teachers and police officers (as if these particular occupations would exempt people from being "users"). For example, I will say (AGAIN) how I had a friend that was unpleasantly surprised when she was used in her marriage. Among other unpleasant surprises, the joint bank account she had with her husband was garnished for HIS child support payments. Funny, he neglected to mention that to her.
Just as Aimee has mentioned above ( I saw that certain people would constantly "troll" Evia and Halima's sites and essentially attack every word they said by asking for some sort of statistical or evidentiary support for their claims--which, when provided, they would either ignore or reject.), your type is never satisfied. You throw out all of these red herrings and "jedi mind tricks" as if that will confuse the issues. They will not.
Now, WHY ARE YOU, a MARRIED BLACK MAN, READING THIS BLOG? If I was married to a black man, I would be WONDERING why he is spending his time on blogs devoted to black women interested in IR.
Now THAT is the million dollar question!
@ creolenola
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and perspective...
The troll is one of three things:
1.) A BM in an unhappy marriage with a BW that he feels could probably go IR. She probably liked the movie "Something New" too much or talks (admiringly) about a BW girlfriend of hers in a happy IR.
2.) A DBRBM who is married or dates IR exclusively and hates BW.
3.) A single DBRBM who feels inadequate and constantly strikes out with - and is especially resentful of Black women. The constant news about BW being more open to IR is bad news to him.
Either way, he needs to take his pathetic self over to tiredblackman or one of the other anti-black women blogs.
That's all there is to it!!!
This troll, LIKE ALL OTHER TROLLS, has succeeded in derailing the conversation to having me and others here talking to him about him and his kind, giving them the attention they SO CRAVE. It's time to ignore his insecure trolling behind and get back to our regular more interesting convo.
That's all there is to it!!!
This troll, LIKE ALL OTHER TROLLS, has succeeded in derailing the conversation to having me and others here talking to him about him and his kind, giving them the attention they SO CRAVE. It's time to ignore his insecure trolling behind and get back to our regular more interesting convo.
You're right.
The title of this post afterall is "Permission to Survive" and that's what we black women must get over.
And while I understand your point about not feeding the trolls, I will say this much. It is important, to a certain extent, that we respond to some of the nonsense they write because remember THOUSANDS of people read these blogs and don't comment. There are BW out there (that read and don't comment) whose mind is still clouded with myths and when some of the nonsense is put out there, it may be something she's already bought into. The counterpoints are helpful to put the opposite perspective out there so sometimes it's not about answering the "trolls" it's about sending a message to other BW out there they may be intimidated by the DBR/mammy strongholds they encounter.
The below is my quote that this Anon is referring to:
"This is why I think it's better to be at least equally yoked for a woman and if possible, a woman should always marry up--NEVER down. Now, I realize that some people will try to make this sound snooty or bougie, but this is why the "class" system developed in most societies in the world. It's very difficult for people with starkly different socioeconomic levels to mix comfortably because the so-called have-nots will want what the haves have and in some cases will resent them for it if they don't give it to them.
Nowhere in this quote did I define what "marrying down" meant, yet this Anon ADDICT and obvious fan of mine--who obviously combs through everything I say--sees himself in my words. LOL!! If you think your wife married down, that's on you--You INSECURE ADDICT!! I'm not responsible for how YOU interpret my words.
Maybe if you used the time you spend writing and talking about me, and stalking me in cyberspace to make some extra money, you wouldn't feel like your wife "married down." I don't know you or your wife. How would I know whether your wife married down? So I NEVER said that. YOU DID!! You obviously think it.LOL!!! This is just how people tell on themselves. So you are BUSTED! Very transparent!! LOL!!
For anyone who can think their way out a paper bag, the term "marrying up" or "marrying down" doesn't always denote money. That's a very linear interpretation and I don't ever think in such a linear fashion. For ex. if a typical school teacher marries a man who made a half million dollars last year dealing illegal drugs, I would consider that as a case of marrying down.
Answer. I am a black man that has taken interest in the well being of black women since black women are all too often put in situations of hardship and abuse, both verbally and physically. This interest has been increased by the not to long ago birth of MY DAUGHTER. Thus I read blogs concerning the well being of black women and such blogs tend to link to sites in this interracial circle. Thus I read them. I have had no desire to comment here until a notable poster suggested that black women should never marry anyone who makes less money than them. I make clearly less than my wife. That gives me a personal reason to see the ridiculousness of the statement. And such a statement would be ridiculous concerning any race.
If a woman limits herself to only men who make as much or more than her, that is her business and her right. But this is no rule that women SHOULD follow.
Clearly, What About Our Daughters and other similar places work on a maturity level far beyond this website with all of the name calling and utter ignorance.
And for your info, I am in an interracial marriage. My wife is black and I am Hispanic, which is one reason I had for peeping in. So much for your ridiculous assumptions. Of course this website really doesn't apply to us since it is all about dating white guys. I have no negative views about black women who are looking for white men. All I did was comment on one individuals silly statment; a statement that had nothing to do with IR relationships.
"Answer. I am a black man that has taken interest in the well being of black women since black women are all too often put in situations of hardship and abuse, both verbally and physically. This interest has been increased by the not to long ago birth of MY DAUGHTER. Thus I read blogs concerning the well being of black women and such blogs tend to link to sites in this interracial circle. Thus I read them."
Blah, blah, blah. Y'all trolls are always "married with children", yeah right!!
Hey ladies, if you've been wondering where are all the "good Black men", well, wonder no more. They're all married and they're all over at BW's various IR blogs posting like their lives depended on it. LOL!!!!
Oh, please, you know what you meant by "marrying down". You meant income, and now you are trying to backtrack. A drug dealer doesn't have legal income. You are an ignorant and shallow and you do not represent interracial relationships at all. You are a bigot who loves black female/white male relationships, yet sh*ts on black female, Hispanic male relationships. I've read your tripe. You are a pariah to the whole topic if IR.
Oh, please, you know what you meant by "marrying down". You meant income, and now you are trying to backtrack. A drug dealer doesn't have legal income. You are an ignorant and shallow and you do not represent interracial relationships at all. You are a bigot who loves black female/white male relationships, yet sh*ts on black female, Hispanic male relationships. I've read your tripe. You are a pariah to the whole topic if IR.
You're ADDICTED to what I write and you need to be looking for a cure because I'll be writing for a LONG time!! You don't know what I meant. You imposed your interpretation on it and see your insecure self in the mirror and got mad at me because of what you see. Man up!! Use this time to make some extra money so you won't feel so insecure. You obviously want ME to tell you that your wife didn't "marry down." That's why you told us your salaries--like we care!! LOL!!!
Anonymous said...
I am a black man . . . for your info, I am in an interracial marriage. My wife is black and I am Hispanic
So, are you a black man or an "Hispanic" man? If you're both, then how is your black wife in an IR marriage? And why did you assume that Evia meant that marrying up meant marrying someone with a higher income? She didn't define it that way, but you insist that's what she "meant." Why?
So, are you a black man or an "Hispanic" man? If you're both, then how is your black wife in an IR marriage?
I'm Afro-Caribbean (Cuban). I guess inter-ethnic marriage is the more accurate term but I am a non-African American man (in the traditional sense) married to an African American woman.
Man up!! Use this time to make some extra money so you won't feel so insecure.
Well I know that it is hard to be as manly as you Evia...
This guy's insecurity about his income is why I strongly suggest that you pair up with a similar income. Most men (of whatever bkgd) can't really deal with it.
He's gone from income talk to Evia (?) is disrespecting Black female/Hispanic male relationships.
FTR my ex is a Hispanic male who made less than I did and only finished high school. He was insecure too.
"Of course this website really doesn't apply to us..."
Exactly. Then why are you here?
If you're an Afro-Latino male married to an Afro-American female - that is a black bicultural relationship - and you have no legitimate reason to be interested in this blog which has an IR focus.
It's shameful for you to use your daughter as an excuse to troll this board. There are a number of black oriented sites regarding parenting and other such issues, which would be of much more immediate use to you as a new father.
Yet you're here. Your priorities appear to be off kilter.
"Man up!! Use this time to make some extra money so you won't feel so insecure."
Well I know that it is hard to be as manly as you Evia...
Typical. When you can't attack the message, attack the messenger... It's fast, easy, and doesn't take a shred of intelligence.
Hey Guatamala
You do realize that 30% of working wives earn more than their husbands?:
http://www.businessweek.com/2001/01_04/b3716163.htm
And if you want to talk about insecurities, focus on these women who are insecure about being dark with nappy hair. There is an intense insecurity there.
Typical. When you can't attack the message, attack the messenger... It's fast, easy, and doesn't take a shred of intelligence.
You do realize that when she called him insecure and told him to man up, she attacked the messenger right? You should read more closely.
Anonymous said...
And if you want to talk about insecurities, focus on these women who are insecure about being dark with nappy hair. There is an intense insecurity there.
Why not focus on the insecurity actually being displayed here--a man who brings the relative incomes of himself and his wife into a conversation where no one has mentioned them? Why should we focus instead on what YOU consider important?
Well I know that it is hard to be as manly as you Evia...
Ohhhhhh--Lawdy, Lawdy, I'm jes gon faint cause they done called me "manly. LOL!!!!!!!
This is just beyond pathetic. See sistas, this is why you have nothing to worry about. Now this one (same troll??) is mad at me 'cause I'm not scared of them!! This is all they can do--is call you names. They have no power of you. These male trolls are saying they have wives. They have somebody to hug in the middle of the night whereas so many sistas are in their beds all alone--night after night with nobody to hug or to hug them--even if their lives depended on it!!
So Naw!! I'm not scared of y'all!! See, this is why I don't have a wannabe man. My husband never wonders whether I'm a man because he knows that he's the man. Better still, he knows how to BE a man in every sense of the word. He doesn't have tantrums just because I disagree with him. I married my equal. This is why sistas must strive to marry on their level or above. Men who are not on your level want to call you names and have tantrums when you disagree with them or do worse. Y'all know exactly what I mean! This is a perfect example. So I thank these trolls for proving this point much better than I ever could have all alone. Y'all trolls just help so much!!
Besides, this is child's play compared to what folks have come at me with. When you decide that you're going to be your own person and define yourself, a lot of people can't handle it.
I know y'all trolls can't stand it 'cause you're not getting your way. Y'all have your tantrums and expect for folks to fall apart.(smh) Not me. I used to get paid a lot of money to deal with tantrums. If y'all are going to be men, then man up!!
As Pearl Jr. says: 'Black Women Need Love Too' and more and more bw EVERYDAY are making a decision to be with those loving, loveable, suitable, and compatible men of any race or group they want. It's a woman's right and we no longer give a flying eff whether y'all approve or not! We don't need permission, so get over yourselves.
YAWN
my yawm was for the tiresome bm trolls!
Evia says:
"This is all they can do--is call you names"
And then commences to repeatedly calling people "trolls".
Gotta luv it. Flava Flav, Howard Stern and Esha Moore. Three of a kind.
As Pearl Jr. says: 'Black Women Need Love Too'
Is Pearl not getting a black man's love?
And then commences to repeatedly calling people "trolls"
A troll is as a troll does.
Gotta luv it. Flava Flav, Howard Stern and Esha Moore. Three of a kind.
Yeah, but I have the nerve to put up my name, YOU don't. So, what else can you be called but who you are--anon addicted TROLLS!! LOL!!!!
And now I know you're a TROLL that has written me personally because the name "Esha" is on my e-mailbox. Hmmmm, let me just guess which TROLL you are. Probably the one who calls himself 'John Doe' LOL!!!!!
Suffice it to say that black women don't need your 'Permission to Survive' which is the title of this thread.
I'm outta here. See y'all around because one thing I KNOW for sure is that y'all TROLLS will be following me because you're just ADDICTED!!
These male trolls are saying they have wives.
That's what I think is so funny! You always hear these BM complain that they can't find any "good" black women - and yet all of these trolls are "married to black women." None happen to be married to non-black women or single.
Remember the "married" troll with "two sons in medical school" that he was "training" to be with Black women?
I call bullsh*t!
No, as a matter of fact, I scream it from the hilltops - BULLSH*T!!
And notice how the trolls ALWAYS specify Evia.
Hmmm...
I wonder if our old buddy is up to some new (old) tricks?
And now I know you're a TROLL that has written me personally because the name "Esha" is on my e-mailbox. Hmmmm, let me just guess which TROLL you are. Probably the one who calls himself 'John Doe' LOL!!!!!
Ah, so that answers it. Bullsh*t is right! Damn, these trolls are bad actors!
Well, it's been fun ladies. I'm off to brush up on my Italian.
I think this particular discussion has gone far enough so lets let it drop.
thanks
kara
You familiarized everyone with the name "Esha Moore" when you pasted Jam Donaldson's comments here:
http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/2007/07/breaking-sistas-out-of-jail-how-to-talk.html
Zabeth asked:
How did the guys on CList respond to you? Did they seem to want to just hook up?
Of course a great number of them wanted to hook up. What's wrong with that, when both parties are willing? Actually, I got advice last year from a blogger that said CL is great when you are very specific on what you want - put in your favorite art or band or something. I referenced 80s pop - that's how I made the post mine. I also tried to bring a bit of my personality in the post. Most men were very respectful - tell them that's what you want - and earnest. As a matter of fact, some were a bit too earnest for my taste, but hey, whatever lights your boat!!!!
Ndel's World!
The recent troll hijack raises a good question - how do bw evaluate whether nonbm or non-AA bm are racist or sexist if they do so at all? I managed to learn quickly where a man stood regarding race and gender either by asking direct questions or seeking his views on applicable issues that arose in the news. No one is going to admit to being a sexist or racist but those views always surface in one way or another. If I learned my husband of any race was anonymously hurling insults at women online, I would be quite concerned and wonder just what kind of man I had married and what type of views he would pass on to our children.
Aphrodite said:
"2. I am seeking feedback on femininity and beauty. My head is now messed up when it comes to beauty, but not in a bad way because its changing. Since Evia and your blogs have both touched on colorism/features - I have been examining and un-re- learning certain things I suppose. I have been practicing looking at images of people and questioning my beliefs/feelings/thoughts about those images. I think I did ascribe to a hierarchy of beauty, but after doing these exercises for so long that is changing, but I am still unsure of myself. I have decided to make some cosmetic changes."
I still struggle with this, but there was one moment that pretty much had me burnt up. I was in high school (though now I'm 24! I still remember this). I was in English class, and a bf classmate was asking bm classmates about a Cover Girl photo shoot of Kiara, an African model, and another whose name I can't remember now. They called them ugly, and didn't know why she was in a picture featuring makeup. Do you have any idea how much that hurt? I figured then that medium-to-light skinned women were the best and prettiest--just because of their skin, and have carried this belief--that is, until now. I still struggle with the colorism belief, but I'm learning that there is somebody for everybody. What one person may not like, someone else does, and if it makes them happy for whatever reason there is, then who is everyone else?
I went and searched for "model Kiara" and found this: http://www.lmodelz.com/kiara.htm
This girl is absolutely lovely. Those dudes were trippin.
"In the greek mythology Aphrodite is the goddess of love and beauty and that is exactly what you are ;-)
You're a wonderful woman with a beautiful mind. let it flow."
Old Europe:
That is so sweet of you. :)
Anyone who can look at that goddess Kiara and say she is ugly is suffereing from advanced brain problems, i dont think there is a cure for it.
it just shows how warped black people have become that they can see what every other being on earth sees as beautiful and say she is ugly because of er deep tones, wow!
its becoming clrea to me that many bm are just on a status drive, picking up and aligning themselves with anything that they think will elevate them in the minds of whites. since they have become status conscious slaves bw need to be replacing them with men who can think for themselves!
it just shows how warped black people have become that they can see what every other being on earth sees as beautiful and say she is ugly because of er deep tones, wow!
1. I doubt that you could find a single black person who would call her ugly. The vast majority would view her as an attractive woman.
2. She is not dark. She has mid-range brown skin.
"its becoming clrea to me that many bm are just on a status drive, picking up and aligning themselves with anything that they think will elevate them in the minds of whites. since they have become status conscious slaves bw need to be replacing them with men who can think for themselves!"
BW are just as status orientated as black men who are no more status driven than the rest of general humanity. People will do anything to move up. Clearly that is what this blog is about, telling BW how they can move up because BM apparently aren't the ticket.
BW are also just as caught in colorism issues. Don't act like ya'll ish don't stink. BW go for the "lightest negro" all the time.
But of course you know this. You also apparently know the mind of all Bm, because when BM make certain decisions you construct your own narrative about their motives with no real evidence(conspiracy theorist do the same thing) and apparently according to you we all just want to be like massa'. Maybe(why not, he as all the power and wealth something most men covet)
If thats the case than most BW want to be massa's wife.
Yeah, everybodies' f'ed up.
Also, don't assume just because someone doesn't find a dark-skinned woman attractive that she its because of her skin.
And yes, humans are visual and we judge beauty based on how someone looks and skin color plays a role in how someone looks and may therefore play a factor in how attractive someone appears to others. Some people may find lighter tones more attractive than darker tones and vice versa. Its not a crime and its not "discrimination."(In the sense that refuse to hire a qualified individual because of their skin color)
A persons personal taste in the opposite sex is their own business.
And to say someone is warped because they may have this preference over another is just petty and silly. And BM taste in women is just as influenced by society as BW and its clear that society tells women that they need to find a particular type of man to be satisfied. So yes, your preferences are determined by society as well. And society judges men by their ability to provide(despite the advances women have made financially I guess they still want to be taken care of) and a women by her attractiveness and by American societies standards neither of us are making the cut. I know it sucks.
Its not a crime and its not "discrimination."(In the sense that refuse to hire a qualified individual because of their skin color)
It's not a crime, but it's definitely racial DISCRIMINATION because the primary criteria for discrimination from racist white folks is SKIN SHADE. This is the reason why some black folks who can pass for white don't get discriminated against--because racist whites can't tell that they are black. So those bm who reject chocolate sistas are doing EXACTLY what racist whites do.
The next time that a "brotha" (LOL!) who rejects chocolate sistas gets discriminated against by de evil wm, he should just keep that in mind and realize how that sista feels to be rejected for no other reason than the shade of her skin.
A persons personal taste in the opposite sex is their own business.
It's obvious and pathetic that you're trying to split hairs here. LOL!! Racist white people ALSO have their "personal taste" when they discriminate against black folks for the same reason--darker skin shade. It's STILL racial discrimination. It may be your personal taste, but it's STILL racial discrimination.
You cannot wiggle out of this and the very fact that you're trying to do so SHOWS that you know it's morally WRONG.
So what we have today is MANY DBRbm who are very definitely discriminating against darker sistas, yet many wm and other non-bm are loving those sistas and bm are having tantrums about that.
Any bm who discriminates against a dark-skinned sista based solely on her skin shade is perpetrating a racist act and is very definitely a DBRbm, in my book, and I don't care what else he may do that's positive.
And based on that, there are infinitely more racist AA men than AA women because a LOT of sistas are EXTREMELY attracted to dark-skinned men and I'm one of them. Yes, my present husband is white because I don't discriminate on the basis of skin shade when the quality and content of character is present in a man. But my first husband was a very deep chocolate. I've been very attracted to dark skinned men since I was a young girl, so this has nothing to do with any current popularity of dark-skinned men.
I've perused TBM and other black boards where light-skinned bm complain that it's hard for them to get black women... because light-skinned men aren't "in-style" like they were in the '80s.
BW are also just as caught in colorism issues. Don't act like ya'll ish don't stink. BW go for the "lightest negro" all the time.
Yes, there are DBRs of the colorist type in both genders.
Some bw are indeed DBR colorists, but the frequency/intensity of any occurrence determines the severity of that situation. For ex., if 2 out of 10 bw are DBR colorists and 8 out of 10 bm are DBR colorists, then the men have definitely caused a DBR colorist epidemic because of the big difference between 2 and 8--the same as a category 2 hurricane is nothing compared to a category 5 one (Katrina).
Yeah, everybodies' f'ed up.
Not true. Speak for yourself. LOL!!
Just because you may be a f'ed up DBR person doesn't mean that EVERYBODY else is. LOL! It may make you feel better to think that, but it's not true. And if you think that the sistas here who are pro-IR relationships are f'ed up, then y'all shouldn't even care whether we're with wm or any other type of nonbm. So why are you here? LOL!!
I certainly don't care whether DBRbm are with nonblack women. I just don't want them to take the assets (of all types) that bw have helped them to get and put it in other communities, IF there is a "black community" any longer. (The jury's still out on that one.) I know some sistas mourn the loss of any "brotha" to a nonbw, but I DEFINITELY don't.
That's why I keep asking the question: Why should bw have to take ALL the hits?
Those DBRbm will simply take their pathology to that ww or other non-bw and it'll be passed on to their children. We're actually seeing lots of this already in the schools sytem. Many ww and other non-bw are becoming babymamas and catching heck these days from these DBRbm.
Also, there is the increasing evidence of self-hate among some biracial children, simply because their fathers hate their blackness and therefore can't teach their children to have pride in their blackness.
Remember, you can lie to yourself and to other folks, BUT you can't hide anything from your children. They will KNOW how you devalue your blackness--if you do.
This 'Permission to Survive' post is, in my book, one of the rarest, most insightful clarion calls to black women everywhere.
Although I despise 'chain emails', that message needs to spread like wildfire and honestly discussed in 'black women only' environments. Possibly by an email chain with links to a forum that is moderated to keep out the DBR bm/bw.
The reason that I say 'bw only' is that we find it irresistable to get off point and off message by engaging in hopeless conversations with with DBRbm who try to attack it. This energy draining melee with the trolls on this board is an example of this. Why do you care what some irritating dude typing in his boxers thinks?
DBRbm will never be convinced of the tenets of halima's arguments because they will not, and can not see or feel the sting of the great lies that are inflicted on bw everywhere.
I, for one, will not waste another precious drop of energy in a pseudo-debate with a DBR. They are lost forever and we MUST leave them behind to save ourselves.
Ladies, please allow the men and women who want to cling to the diseased and failed paradigms of the past to do so without pulling you into their vortex of their convoluted, neurotic banter. They have each other to talk to, so let the dead bury their dead and KEEP STEPPIN'.
Isn't that what 'Permission to survive' is all about? We don't have to PROVE what our own eyes are seeing. We don't have to convince some poor, delusional Black man online or offline of the realities of this situation. The opinions and judgements of the DBR no longer count. AMEN?!
LEAVE THEM ALONE in the quicksands of poor logic, self-hatred and dysfunction. You can not save them. Even fighting them will drown you too.
By virtue of being here, we are showing that we have a life to lead, and goals to acheive that do not include them. Let us rise and fly to a higher plane, where the atmosphere is too clean for them to thrive in.
Save your precious writing time convincing bw who are honestly searching for answers.
Trust me, the trolls will DEFINITELY chime in about this post. Let us see if we have learned our lesson by not feeding their bizarre cravings for anonymous attention.
Go ahead and chain email it arfenton. you have my blessing!
halima,
I will definitely do it. I will need to contact you more directly though... since that post is part of a running dialogue, I might need to add some comments to get a new reader up to speed on the conversation.
BTW, I am in the NJ/NY/Philly area. I have some friends who would love to chat with you over an afternoon tea. Let me know if you're ever in town!
P.S. How can someone email you directly?
Hi Evia, here are my response to your response:
It is discrimination to prefer a type of skin tone over another but its not necessarily racial. If I like light skin tones there is a variety of races I might be into. But, I think your missing the point. When it comes to sexual attraction people are rarely just attracted to one feature. They might also be into tall girls with bald heads and like folk music. Nor is sexual attraction necessarily a conscious decision. Your attracted to people and sometimes you might not know why. Even you did you might not know why you've come to like a certain trait. This isn't the same as someone who purposely and actively dislikes or hates another group of people.
There is an important difference. A womans personal preferences do not have the same impact on me as does my employers racial bias. Yeah I might get rejected by her but thats not the same sort of discrimination. The racist employer is judging me on the wrong set of standards(race instead of experience and talent) The girl who is not attracted to me because I'm too light or I'm too skinny is using the proper standard for mating. We mate with those we are sexually attracted to and reject those who are not. At least 50% of attraction is physical traits(Including height, weight, muscle, smell, dress, etc.) So if I don't meet her criteria than tough for me but its not immoral because she has not used an improper standard of judgment.
But if we continue on your premise, is not than morally wrong for white men to be solely into black women or how about black men who are solely into black women. Is that not racial discrimination?
And based on that, there are infinitely more racist AA men than AA women because a LOT of sistas are EXTREMELY attracted to dark-skinned men and I'm one of them.
And there are BM who are into dark skinned women, but isn't it racial bias to be EXTREMELY into dark-skinned men/women to the exclusion of lighter-skinned men/women?
Yes, my present husband is white because I don't discriminate on the basis of skin shade when the quality and content of character is present in a man.
How do we know this? Why should I not assume, like you do about black men, that you do not like men with dark skin or that you prefer white men? Perhaps you dumped your chocolate man for the vanilla once you had the chance.
I don't mean to be insulting and I'm not inferring that you are lying but I'm merely showing how its wrong to make assumptions about peoples motives when it comes to their mating habits.
Yes, there are DBRs of the colorist type in both genders.
Some bw are indeed DBR colorists, but the frequency/intensity of any occurrence determines the severity of that situation. For ex., if 2 out of 10 bw are DBR colorists and 8 out of 10 bm are DBR colorists, then the men have definitely caused a DBR colorist epidemic because of the big difference between 2 and 8--the same as a category 2 hurricane is nothing compared to a category 5 one (Katrina).
Perhaps you are right but you really have no basis for this but your own perception. Perhaps because you think BM in general prefer lighter-skinned women because you notice those couples more often and tend to overlook the black men with darker-women.
I'm not saying this necessarily the case but humans definitely have a bias in perception( we tend to see what we want to see) if they have hang-ups about something.
I'm here because this is an interesting topic and I like discussing phenomenon such as this. I don't really care who mates with whom. My sister is with a white guy(he don't think he's white but oh well) and I happy for them.
. I just don't want them to take the assets (of all types) that bw have helped them to get and put it in other communities, IF there is a "black community" any longer.
Well, your married to a white man, are you not taking resources out of the "black community". How about your husband, is he taking resources out the "white community" that helped him get where is. Should white women be angry at him?
Also, if he did take a black wife, how is that necessarily giving back to the "black community". How should middle-class blacks contribute to the black community?
What are his/her obligations? And when you say the assets that bw helped him attain what do you mean? The only BW who have really helped me(that i know of) are my family members and friends. But marrying a BW wouldn't necessarily be paying them back. I pay them back by helping them in their respective endeavors(Thats what friends and family do) And if one of my black female friends decides to marry a non-bm I'm not going to hold it against her and say because I helped in some way she owes it me to marry a bm.(That just sounds dumb)
Of course if your talking about generalities,like Black men owe Black women such and such because of what happened in the past or because of some abstract, metaphysical notion of blackness that academic hacks like to bring up than I'm not with you.
Personally, if a person isn't contributing time and income into institutions that benefit black folk(it could benefit other folk too) than he/she is not contributing to the black community. But marryng a black person is not necessarily helping the BC except in a statistical way.
Those DBRbm will simply take their pathology to that ww or other non-bw and it'll be passed on to their children. We're actually seeing lots of this already in the schools sytem. Many ww and other non-bw are becoming babymamas and catching heck these days from these DBRbm.
That pathology doesn't stem from self-hate. If stems from how bm(and increasingly hispanic and white males) are becoming socialized as far as sex relations go.
This is due, ironically, to the spread of a matriarchy in the community. In a matriarchy, women largely provide for their families because inheritance is passed through the mother. Most matriarchies arise in societies where females have an almost equal role in the economic life of the community. Because children don't inherit from their father, the father as less incentive to invest in his children.( In these case, it maybe his sisterss kids that inherit his asset) This phenomenon exist in some West African polygamous cultures. Sometimes these polygamous arrangement are encouraged by the first wife because a second wife is subordinate to her and can be used to take care of the household while she undertakes other pursuits.
The black community is fast adopting such a culture but its pathological because it doesn't fit into the western, free-market, capitalistic, high-technology mode of production which encourages small, mobile families and heavy, long term investments in a child's upbringing and education.
The irony is that sexual freedom of women partly brought this one because it lessened a mans incentive to get married. In the past it used the be the only way a man got laid(outside of a whore) was through marriage. Now this is no longer necessary to get laid. When it comes to sex the ball is in the womans court and they've given it up. Also, the financial independence of women has lessened HER incentive to get married since she doesn't need a man to support her. But people still desire companionship and what not, but its no longer necessary to get married to achieve this. Americans still get married often(maybe we're romantics) but other westerners like Europeans are letting go of the institution for better or for worse.(They also have a stronger social benefits system that allows children to be taken care of partly by the state subsidization)
Also, there is the increasing evidence of self-hate among some biracial children, simply because their fathers hate their blackness and therefore can't teach their children to have pride in their blackness.
Self-hating biracial children are probably more a product of a society with irrational assumptions about race and color.
They will KNOW how you devalue your blackness--if you do.
What exactly is BLACKNESS? And since their white parent is an obvious self-hater too will they also devalue their whiteness?
Some points, have you ever thought that perhaps upwardly mobile bm marry non-blacks at a higher rate is because as one moves up the world one encounters other races more often. How many BW do you think are up in the corporate offices and such. Compared to whites AND asians, not many. If bm didn't take race into any consideration than they would probably marry whites at a higher rate because of the sheer numbers of them, especially in higher education and the professional world. In other worlds, if we just randomly paired middle and upper class people up regardless of race, than most black men and women would find themselves with a non-black mate.
But the stats suggest otherwise because middle and upper income bm still marry bw more than they marry out. If you think I lying just check the census. So most still consciously seek out people of the same race. Working class black folk tend to be more segregated from whites and find that there options exist mainly within the race.
"Perhaps because you think BM in general prefer lighter-skinned women because you notice those couples more often and tend to overlook the black men with darker-women.
I'm not saying this necessarily the case but humans definitely have a bias in perception( we tend to see what we want to see) if they have hang-ups "
I had to LMAO at this-then I didn't bother reading the rest. But I do agree with this bit,"I'm not saying this necessarily the case.."
( I am a new anonymous)
"Trust me you don’t reach 70% singleness without a few alarm bells going off along the way. I believe we are at this crisis point as bw because we decided to ignore our gut instincts, our judgements on how things are and everything our eyes were clearly telling us, for some explanation that suited our romantic ideals about the black community. And there were many many folks who capitalised on this need to 'keep the faith' to put us off what we knew we had to do. Some of you will never get back the years you have lost by believing in someone else’s version of events! "
This paragraph put chills down my spine. I go to a church with hundreds of attractive, educated and likeable bw, who are swallowing the 'keep the faith' story and the so-called bm apologetic philosophies as to why we only THINK we are all single.
Fighting the good fight (and sometimes failing) of being nice, celibate mules, while swallowing the self-serving, self-righteous moralizing of bm 'intellectuals'.
I have decided not to argue with any DBR men or women about this matter. I will simply take my beauty, spirit, finances and love elsewhere.
Second to last anonymous, Did you not bother reading the rest because you were afraid of its content?
Most people accept their own perceptions as if truth without questioning them.
Socrates said "Know thy self" and offered a system of self-questioning that brought one to knowledge of self. Many people on this board and beyond need to try this.
"The utter nerve of these DBR folks is amazing! Is there no end to the insufferable arrogance?! What gives these fools the right to demand anything - they have no standing in this discussion! They are a moot point! An individual only has the right to make demands if they are a positive part of the solution and not the problem! The proof is in the doing - not the talking and these trolls are all talk and no positive action - henceforth they have forfeited the "right" to demand anything from anyone except themselves. "
AMEN, sister! And keep this blog going!
I'm honestly confused by the comments--can't a BM think a white woman or a light-skinned BW is pretty without being colorstruck? If Jamie Foxx dates a WW, does that then mean he doesn't like dark-skinned BW?
Anonymous said...
"I'm honestly confused ...can't a BM think a white woman or a light-skinned BW is pretty without being colorstruck? If Jamie Foxx dates a WW, does that then mean he doesn't like dark-skinned BW? "
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Personally I don't give a hoo what bm prefer because I prefer white men. Every person has a right to their own taste.
But many posters are bringing out their experiences with bm who have insulted bw based on phenotype. In other words, there seems to be ALOT of black men who have issues with dark skinned, short haired, etc. etc beauty. And these bm have hurt many bw.
Some of the women commenting on these blogs are HURTING and I feel for them.
Many of the women opening prefer BM, but what are they told by the some BM. You're ugly!
And when successful, finanacially stable, educated, free from a wrapsheet, happy, AND unabusive bm (OF WHICH THERE ARE FEW) consitantly chose and prefer,date, and marry women of a specific phenotype, these women who want these men have every right to feel hurt and have every right to tell it like it is.
I suppose you would easily dismiss the reality of these women and there feelings?
And I suppose you would want us to lie and say these bm are ok because they MIGHT be with a dark skinned woman?
IT'S TIME THAT BW STOP LYING TO THEMSELVES.
These bloggers are doing a great service to bw.The purpose of these blogs is to expose the truth behind that 70% singleness rate among bw.
And to tell them to love themselves, consider their options, and get as far away, and as fast as you can, from some of these DBRBM. Stop taking their s***. And learn that those men aren't the only ones that can make you happy.
let love rule said:
'And when successful, finanacially stable, educated, free from a wrapsheet, happy, AND unabusive bm (OF WHICH THERE ARE FEW) consitantly chose and prefer,date, and marry women of a specific phenotype, these women who want these men have every right to feel hurt and have every right to tell it like it is.
I suppose you would easily dismiss the reality of these women and there feelings?
And I suppose you would want us to lie and say these bm are ok because they MIGHT be with a dark skinned woman?
IT'S TIME THAT BW STOP LYING TO THEMSELVES.'
THANK you for that entire post.
My only hope is that future bw (dark-skinned and otherwise) will be too busy eying the cute non-bm behind him to notice!
Ahmad said:"That pathology doesn't stem from self-hate. If stems from how bm(and increasingly hispanic and white males) are becoming socialized as far as sex relations go. This is due, ironically, to the spread of a matriarchy in the community. In a matriarchy, women largely provide for their families because inheritance is passed through the mother. Most matriarchies arise in societies where females have an almost equal role in the economic life of the community."
I think you have it backwards: single-motherhood does not a matriarchy make. It is the PATRIARCHY that has defined the women as the sex caste in the first place. That is, that women are for the sole purposes of sexual pleasure for men and for rearing kids. You (and many men) must believe this to be true otherwise you would not have said, "men now have less incentive to get married" and "when it comes to sex the ball is in the womans court and they've given it up"
Many aspects of sexual liberation were not just social (e.g. premarital sex) but they were human rights issues e.g., women not being considered tantamount to husbands' property, freedom of choice, contraception. Furthermore it paved the way for women's economic self-determination, access to higher education, etc.
So in light of you attributing the failures (or in your words pathologies) of modern relationships to women's lib, it seems you are saying that the traditional nuclear family (especially under capitalism) can only be successful when someone's human rights and right to economic self determination are being violated.
Instead blaming a nonexistant matriarchy, I would contend that men (like the ones you describe in your post need) learn to see the value of a woman as a partner in life and human being and not as a means to an orgasm (the latter idea, being the true pathology.)
One last point: a true matriarchal society (not what you described) theoretically would have small, steady birthrates as well. Contrast that with the most rigidly patriarchal societies (especially under polyGYNY) and you will find exceptionally high, often economically and envirnonmentally unsustainable, birthrates.
Let Love Rule said...
Anonymous said...
"I'm honestly confused ...can't a BM think a white woman or a light-skinned BW is pretty without being colorstruck? If Jamie Foxx dates a WW, does that then mean he doesn't like dark-skinned BW? "
----------------------------------
Personally I don't give a hoo what bm prefer because I prefer white men. Every person has a right to their own taste.
But many posters are bringing out their experiences with bm who have insulted bw based on phenotype. In other words, there seems to be ALOT of black men who have issues with dark skinned, short haired, etc. etc beauty. And these bm have hurt many bw.
Some of the women commenting on these blogs are HURTING and I feel for them.
Many of the women opening prefer BM, but what are they told by the some BM. You're ugly!
And when successful, finanacially stable, educated, free from a wrapsheet, happy, AND unabusive bm (OF WHICH THERE ARE FEW) consitantly chose and prefer,date, and marry women of a specific phenotype, these women who want these men have every right to feel hurt and have every right to tell it like it is.
I suppose you would easily dismiss the reality of these women and there feelings?
And I suppose you would want us to lie and say these bm are ok because they MIGHT be with a dark skinned woman?
IT'S TIME THAT BW STOP LYING TO THEMSELVES.
These bloggers are doing a great service to bw.The purpose of these blogs is to expose the truth behind that 70% singleness rate among bw.
And to tell them to love themselves, consider their options, and get as far away, and as fast as you can, from some of these DBRBM. Stop taking their s***. And learn that those men aren't the only ones that can make you happy.
That was well said, love ya
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