Thursday, January 28, 2010

Who's Zoomin Who???

Well once again I have been confronted by Pan Africanist Women trying to sell me some  Pan Africanist doctrine which I promptly dispatched when I brought some questioned to bear on their beliefs.

Anyway since they are clinging so tightly to their Pan Africanist men, I thought I’d highligt a few and see who these men where cleaving to on their part. Lol. I hope it doesnt make for uncomfortable reading for some of you who dont want reality to intrude upon your fanstasy of you and black men sitting in a tree KISSING.

So look away now ...............












Lets start with some African Leaders who were key players in  'emancipating' their people from white rule.  A few examples


Angola's First President and His Wife


Next

First Senegal President and wife

Next


First Presdent Botswana and family


Next

Kwame Nkurumah and Wife



Modern Day Examples


It appears that for Senegal, white first ladies is normalized because here we have the current  first lady Viviane and Husband Aboulaye Wade the president

Viviane meets Laura Bush


Now folks I have a full and long list of 'Pan Africanist' black men with white female tendencies, unfortunately I couldnt track down pictures. For example, did you know that Nigeria's first President (so called he was really a governor general) Nnamdi Azikiwe had half welsh daughter Jayzik who unfortunately passed away recently (aparrently she was a reggae musican and you can see her videos on you tube). Yes the great ZIK of African did not hold himself away from white women despite all that vigorous contending with 'Le white man' for independence of his country.

Y'all folks better check, coz it might have taken a little less time to achieve Nigerian independence. Who knows better check.....

This is just the tip folks. Research if you like, some of the greats of Pan Africanist, you will see a trend. Some got the 'She's not white she is Egyptian' line in or opted biracial like Marcus Garvey who is 'worshipped' among pan africanist people, but the discernable pattern is there; we talk 'africanism but prefer our women not too african.'

Sure some but not all (or is it all but not some), but it was still significant numbers and all the more concerning given that these men where all about black power, black self rule, black emancipation. The white folks must have been doubled up with laughter at the in your face hypocrisy.

Its amazing isnt it, that if a bw pan africanist even thought of a white man with affection she would take a shower and have a bath and purify her clothes for such an act of treason lol!

Now do you think Aboulaye Wade was worried that he was installing a white woman as first lady of a black country? Do you think he was cut to the heart? Or worried what messgage he was sending to the West or his country women. I bet he would stick a finger at anyone who had a problem with it like your truly Franz Fanon as you will see shortly...


Down to the UK...

Indeed it takes me back to the death of Bernie Grant almost a decade ago. Yes at the funeral of the 'fire and brimstone will rrain down on white people' threatening black man, there was a march televised on national TV with his blonde wife there in the middle flanked by all these black women in black cloths looking like they had been crying for hours over the death of the champion of black people. I believe his wife now speaks in his stead on black issues.

Pan africanist women have and continue to excuse and explain away, or insist on overlooking, these black male activites which they make small of. Any wonder why these men think it is the done thing and are not even having any moral crisis at the thought of choosing white while talking black.

Honestly black men have become a disgrace, a liability and a dead weight to any sort of pan africanist movement and the key reason why the white folk who they are challenging DO NOT TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY.

Do you know that even pan africanist white men or anti racist white men actually marry white women overwhelmingly?

Bw have learnt to tolerate being the flankers so much so it is now entrenched in modern perspectives (another blog for another day), however one of the results of this pan Africanist black male tendency is that white women are now speaking on behalf of black people and their issues. Llol what a laugh. Yes white women have inherited their pan afrcanists husbands legacy and mantel along with the flankers of black women chanting an amen to their speeches and standing at their side as body guards. This is not to even talk about the financial rewards that are acrruing mostly posthumously as a result of books and works of their husbands.

Supposing it was the reverse case and it was a white men speaking for black people having recevied the mantel from a black person, I can hear the loud grumbles and see the angry faces and no one would even think they are credible to speak on behalf of black people. There would be leadership challenges and the tearing away of most of the support base. But a host of white women are now speaking for black issues as a result of being left to carry on the ‘African centered’ work and legacy of their black husbands lol and as usual, the tolerant, 'ever pacifying black man' pan africanist black woman just bends over again and tolerates. Lol.

Which brings me to CLR James



Yes the writer of the widely regarded, brilliant and highly praised 'Black Jacobins', well his legacy is being carried on by his white widow. To my knowledge his current widow is number 3 white wife or long term companion. Yet if you see the way black women in the UK speak with such reverent tones about CLR, 'Oh he was so brilliant, he astounded the white people etc etc etc'. BLACK WOMEN HAVE NO SHAME...They will glorify anti black women black men without missing a beat.

And to the US and wider
some more names for your records not all Panafricanist but...

  • Richard Wright ( yep the one known as One of America's greatest black writers) was married to Dhimah Rose Meadman, a Russian-Jewish ballet dancer.

  • Cheikh Anta Diop (yep the very one considered one of the greatest African historians of the 20th century a senegalese) married Louise Marie Maes, a French woman in 1953 in Paris.

  • James Farmer, the pioneer of the civil rights movement's nonviolent direct action against racial discrimination and segregation.and his wife Lula Peterson

  • Frantz Fanon (yep the very one raegrded as the epitome of the intellectual Black race man and who wrote the highly regarded Black Skin, White Masks ) was married to Marie-Josephe (and actually reports say he was connected to more than one white woman). Fanon, married Marie-Josephe "Josie" Duble in 1952, just as Black Skin, White Masks was published, and fathered a son. Lol!
He was quoted as saying

"Who I chose as the object of my desire is nobodies business -- I'm a free man."


"I do not feel that I am abandoning my personality by marrying a European woman. If my children are looked down upon, if the crescents of their fingernails are examined, it will be simply because society will not have changed. For my part, I refuse to consider this issue from the standpoint of either/or."

  • W.E.B. Du Bois and Dora Marbach and Amalie Lebenfeldt

  • Oh and lets not forget Julain Bond who was elected to his fourth term as the chairman of the National Board of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) (meaning: it doesnt matter who a black man marries he can still be for his people though it doesnt mean bw should do it too), is married to Pamela Sue Horowitz

I can imagine how this these Pan Africanist women are going to spin this one because they will do anything to cling to their tatered dreams of black men and women walking hand in hand. Unfortunately for some who will have a very rude awakening, the Black Utopia these pan africanist black men are building, has no place for black women. You better check the fine print before you pack your bags.

Again I ask, is do you think Aboulaye Wale is having a crisis of conscience thinking, ‘What message am I sending to the West installing a white woman as first lady of a black country’? Or Maybe 'What about the woman in my country, how do they feel seeing her as first lady.'

Do you think he lost sleep over all that? I would wager he will DARE anyone to have an opinion about his choice of woman! Lol.

These men saw/see nothing dissonant in being with white women (often a string of them), in the midst of pushing for black unity, black coming together bla blah blah. In today's multicultural premised discourses I can understand it not being a problem (for those who are about integrating than pushing for black political and economic base), but in the days of aggressive push back against black people being accorded any form of dignity and pride, erudite essayist could convince others that there was nothing dissonant in being with white and touting black unity and blacks coming together (notice I said dissonant not wrong)

If it isn’t proof that the focus of their agitation was the elevation of black man detached from any obligation, concern, consideration and thought for black women, I wonder what will be.

Black men have been charting their own paths towards self aggransidenment while black male identified women try to convince other black women that 'we' black men and woman, are really on the same path and we only need to be patient and understanding.

If pan africanist women want to be taken seriously they might do well to splinter off from anything to do with black pan africanist men, because then they will make more sense than what is being made at this point with Pan africanism trying to merge love of all things white and light with talk of black uplift. Even a half wit can see something totally odd with that.

Those pan africanist women who think we black women who use our brains and God given judgement are fools and lost and in white supremacist grip, well I throw this one wider and say.....
Whose the fool here, Judge for yourselves!

Thanks to the person who did a great bit of this research, you know who you are!


Black women dont be fooled into being alone, you too can open up your options! Read the IR E-book




Questions to be sent to: relationshipadvice@dateawhiteguybook.com

170 comments:

Anonymous said...

Excellent post. You forgot Cornel West.

Truth p. said...

Hi Halima,this is longtime lurker truth p.Excellent post *standing up clapping*

I hear Martin Luther was very much so into white women as well and many others.It doesn't matter to me though but I sincerely hope that black women will just smarten up and stop being mules and stool pigeons for these black males.Black women are actually funding this crap.Just look at who is funding the N.A.A.C.P. It must stop.I'm no hater and i'm not mad at black men and their choices for a mate but I do not want to squander my money, support, and other resources on those who clearly think very little of me.

So that everybody knows Julian Bond was quoted saying that black womens involvement in the civil rights movement was small and minute which is why there is very little mention of black womens involvement in the movement.All those that know history knows that's a HUGE LIE.During the Dunbar village trials there were black women who called for the NAACP to help get justice for the victims.Even with all the support NAACP gets from black women,including my grandmother who donates money all the time,the NAACP refused to get involved and even admitted if it had been a white man who had done that they'd get involved SMH.I aint mad though I just do unto others as they do unto me.I won't be used.

Anonymous said...

You got me with Diop. I was a Africana Studies major in college, and this man was revered. I had never looked into his personal life, and no one ever talked about who he was married to. I came to the conclusion that the Pan Africanist movement was bogus a long time ago, but you really just confirmed it.

Sky said...

This post was awesome! I didn't even know about Cornel West.

Don't forget about Henry Louis Gates Jr.

This post doesn't even ache my heart it only confirms everything I already knew. Glad I moved on.

Faith at Acts of Faith Blog said...

Skippy Gates can be added as well but the post was about Pan Africanists. If we want to add all black males considered "esteemed" or who are famous or even the lowest common criminal you can see they choose to elevate white women. Just the same way blacks ignore all the racism from other "people of color" and blacks it's all a fallacy isn't it?

Lovebug said...

You are on fire, Halima! This post was truly enlightening. Please don't listen to the haters and continue to speak the truth. Trust me, you are psychologically liberating many black women. As the bible says, "You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free."

Lauren said...

Woooo lawd! I am cracking up!

I knew about Frederick Douglass and Walter White (NAACP) but not these others.

Glad I don't have the pan-Africanist dream!

Anonymous said...

I've always thought the "pan africanists" had a little self-hatred--or didnt get along with their mothers--they probably wanted their daughters to come out "not too dark" by marrying these women

Muse said...

I laughed at the irony of this post. Great job Halima for going there because folks don't get it until it's in their face. That's why I rarely jump on poor black male bandwagon. As Black women we need to research the folks we are holding in high esteem. I personally don't care who people date but don't proceed to tell other people about black empowerment and uplifting the metaphoric community when your own life doesn't reflect your ideology. I also think it's insulting to Pan African Black women to fight so hard for a cause only to have their leader marry a Non-Black woman. It's a slap and spit in the face.

Anonymous said...

You are soooo right Halima. It always amazes me how men who are so pro Black love White women or the closest thing to it. Yet they cringe at the sight of a Black woman with a man of another race. In this day and age people should be happy to find genuine love where they can. If a woman can find a man that loves, honors, and respects her she should not be ashamed to be with him.

Anonymous said...

Same old dance and song. Not to take away from their important contributions, but I firmly believe that many of the male leaders (AA, African, Afro-Carib) from the Civil Rights era, had power and identity issues.

My arm chair psycho analysis is that most were/are not proud of their own cultures and truly believed that the "WESTERN CULTURE" is better.

Acquiring (whether by marrying or f**king) a "The White Man's Woman" is a sign to them that they are equal to their Caucasian counterparts or that they've stolen something from them.

WhatEvEr!!!!!

While I can appreciate what these men did and fought for, I don't revere any MAN except of Jesus and that's because he's also GOD.

I'm Nigerian-American and have spent equal parts of my life in both places. One thing I learned at an early age growing up back home is that women have to look out for their own BEST interest FIRST and have STRONG BOUNDARIES.

For whatever reason, African woman across the whole diaspora are conditioned/taught to GIVE GIVE GIVE and GIVE w/o expecting nothing or little in return.

It's changing but there is still much to be done.

Anonymous said...

Great post!

Anonymous said...

What an informative piece. Thanks for highlighting the hypocrisy of these folks and the movement. I thought we lived by example, but I guess these men and their modern day contemporaries are exempt from those rules.

The funny thing is when it comes to black men there seems to be a free pass given for them to choose whatever partner from any race they desire. Yet, when black women start mobilizing themselves to seek their own joy to choose their own life partner from any race, they are highly criticized from all angles. The same freedom does not apply to black women as they do to black men. Black women are supposed to be kept in place so they can be the breeding machines to keep the race going.

I really hope many more women will find these sites and catch a clue before they become the next victim. Please continue to do the good work that you are doing.

CW said...

To paraphrase Khadija, we have been "gas-lit" for the longest...No one is advocating protesting or holding any animosity towards these figures...However BW need to think critically about who has our best interests now and long-term...More specifically, who by historical reference, is just going to blow smoke only long enough to get what the want out of us...After that, the spoils go elsewhere...Sound familiar?...Bottom line: Do not allow anyone to get the prize on your backs...It's about reciprocity and self-preservation!

Anonymous said...

I'm shocked about Cornel West and Frederick Douglass. Why don't we just ask about those leaders with black wives LOL.
My aunt was a part of the Black Power Revolution in Trinidad in the seventies and left shortly after they achieved some of their goals. Many if not most of the leaders married either white, Indian or biracial women while she and other black women of the movement remained single. I went to school with some of the biracial products of these unions. They would stand out because they were given African first names and forced to wear dashikis on Black awareness days LOL.

Cassandra said...

If Black women continue with the silly "nothing but a Black man" stance, that is their own foolish choice.

Black men have demonstrated over and over again that they will marry whoever makes them happy. Period. Why Black women haven't done the same is their own problem.

Good post - but I think we all knew that Black men were hypocritical already. I remember in the 80s that Black men active in the anti-apartheid movement where I grew up had White girlfriends, which I thought was odd. But, I don't begrudge Black men for being happy - just wish that Black women would do the same.

NijaG said...

Anon 5:09AM Said:

"The funny thing is when it comes to black men there seems to be a free pass given for them to choose whatever partner from any race they desire. Yet, when black women start mobilizing themselves to seek their own joy to choose their own life partner from any race, they are highly criticized from all angles. The same freedom does not apply to black women as they do to black men. Black women are supposed to be kept in place so they can be the breeding machines to keep the race going."


My Response (Anon 4:08AM)

That's because of the double hypocrisy in most patriarchal cultures. Then add the mindset of the male oppressor and oppressed and VIOLA!!! you get this crazy double standards in all male dominated cultures.

From the Nigerian standpoint, lineage is traced through the male line so the logic goes a little something like this:

Children BELONG to their fathers, regardless of if he's married to their mothers or not. Regardless of if he actually helps to raise them of not.

So that's the main rationale some of these African leaders justify their actions and cover up their jacked up psychological issues.

So when a Nigerian man marries any foreigner (racially or ethnically), their kids are self-identified as whatever nationality and/or ethnic group the father belongs to.

Of course it could get complicated, but that's the simple version.

As for the double standards. It's the same old men believing women belong to them crap. Plus on one hand men know that the hand that rocks the cradle is very powerful but still simultaneously try to downplay this knowledge when it doesn't suite their own agenda.

NOTE:
Growing up in the two places (Nigeria & US) I will say that the "mixed" kids raised back home don't usually have some of the self-identity issues that mixed kids in the US/Europe have.

CarmenD said...

Fantastic post. The truth shall set us free.

Muse said...

Halima,

Before the naysayers come in, I do have to mention that Marcus Garvey was married to two Black female Jamaican pan-africanist. They were Amy Ashwood Garvey and Amy Euphemia Jacques Garvey. But otherwise your research was really on point. Thanks again for "going there" : )

Anonymous said...

There was a time when I, as a young uninformed BW, looked up to these men. Now I just think that they, like most (yes I said most) BM are disappointing, pathetic embarrassments...*SIGH*

Anonymous said...

When I was a freshman in college , there was this dynamic black man on the campus, who was the voice of the black students/faculty and staff; everytime an incident occured, he was leading the march, wearing the mudcloth, dreds Africa inspired backpack, always greeting w/a salam alikem(sp); I was 'friends' wiyh a young white/jewish girl who was maybe 19/20. I was visiting her when she received a call and she lets me know that a man she had been seeing, and who was 'dating' several of her white girlfriends, was coming over for some intimate relations. Just as I was leaving he arrived, and it was the 'power to the people' black man who was her. She laughed at me, because of the look on my face;he did not give me eye contact. Everytime I saw him after that, leading protests, giving these powerful 'remember Africa/cival rights-fight the power speeches, surrounded by black women hoping to be with him, I would just stare at him.

I informed an associate of mine a black woman who close to his age of early 40's, what I had learned; she informed me that she had been trying to 'get with him for some time; she was shocked and disappointed. I appreciated his work, but was always confused by this relationship.

ak said...

Anonymous:

Just as I was leaving he arrived, and it was the 'power to the people' black man who was her. She laughed at me, because of the look on my face;he did not give me eye contact. Everytime I saw him after that, leading protests, giving these powerful 'remember Africa/cival rights-fight the power speeches, surrounded by black women hoping to be with him, I would just stare at him.


Wouldn't give you eye contact? HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

I couldn't give a toss about them anymore, as long as they don't come crying to black women for help when the cops start using BM's heads for baseball practice!

I don't want to hear it!

ak said...

Also Anonymous. These men clearly do NOT want fully-black looking children with west African-black features, they don't. They want the world to be all half-black because I guess they think its a solution?

cool_splash1 said...

Before the naysayers come in, I do have to mention that Marcus Garvey was married to two Black female Jamaican pan-africanist. They were Amy Ashwood Garvey and Amy Euphemia Jacques Garvey. But otherwise your research was really on point. Thanks again for "going there" : )

I read on another blog someone mentioning that when Garvey wanted to migrate to Africa (moving to Africa campaign)he wanted to go to Africa start a new colony(kingdom etc.) and take a white woman as queen. Don't know if it's true, but I've read this about Vessey as well. It's scary when you think about it.

I really understand why John Henrick Clarke said in the documentary about him. He said black people need to ask where leaders like Farrakahn are going to lead us to or where they will lead us into into. He was commenting on black people following someone just because they are black. He had somethings to say about the 1mill man march. He commented that any group that excludes a vital part of their group are doomed to fail or something along those lines.

Anonymous said...

Brilliant post. Every black woman should read this and wake the hell up. This reminds me of the Black Panther Party movement in the States. All the men and women wearing black leather and natural afros pumping their fists in the air. When it came time to pick a female leader, one who would represent the Black Panther woman, who did they choose? The lightest, blue-eyed member, Kathleen. LOL! They are a joke.

Anonymous said...

@NijaG, I disagree with you that "the patriarchy" is the source of this double standard. If you want to know why black women are subjected to such social restrictions today, look into the Eugenics movement and the idea of 'human engineering', which became wildly popular in the early 20th century, and the black separatism that was promoted by black leaders at the time, such as W.E.B. Du Bois. Eugenics followers deemed black women "unfit", "human weeds", and "useless eaters" and forcible sterilization of black women was ordered by certain states in America. White women were sterilized because they were poor or deemed "feeble-minded". But for black women, being black was enough to be declared unfit. I urge everyone to head down to Barnes & Noble, Borders, or go on Amazon and get a book titled "War Against The Weak" by Edwin Black. His other works on this subject are eye-openg as well. Eugenics and social engineering are hardly mentioned in these kinds of discussions nowadays unfortunately, and dismissed as "conspiracy" or something that was over and done with decades ago. But, as they say, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Eugenics still persists, but these days genetics politics is much more subtle because the Holocaust. "Eugenics" was renamed "Genome".

The problem I have with the "it's the patriarchy's fault" view is that it always brings the focus today's problems back to the "white man", letting everyone else get off scott free.

Binta said...

Hi Halima, another lurker here.

Great post!!! Wow, I never knew these men actually preached water and drank wine. I have no problem with bm marrying ww (I know some and they are all very kind) but I do find it very disturbing if these men are the ones pushing forward for Africa and black unity.

Africa would completely fall apart without it's women. I see this everytime I go to Nigeria and Togo. Black women are the ones sending money to Africa to take care of their families, they are the ones taking care of the children after the fathers abandon them, black women are selling their clothes and jewelries to feed the family, while a vast majority of the men are pregnating other women and refuse to wear a condom while lying their wives.

It really makes no sense to me why some bw actually still want to exclusively date bm, this is plain stupidity. I'd rather be happily married with an asian, white, arabic guy than single and lonely.

Keep on spreading the news. You are doing women a great service.

NijaG said...

Anon 10:08pm

@NijaG, I disagree with you that "the patriarchy" is the source of this double standard. If you want to know why black women are subjected to such social restrictions today, look into the Eugenics movement and the idea of 'human engineering'........

The problem I have with the "it's the patriarchy's fault" view is that it always brings the focus today's problems back to the "white man", letting everyone else get off scott free.

***********************************

First, I don't consider patriarchy a "white men" thing. Majority of all societies worldwide are male dominated and patriarchal in nature. Also, just like in nature, we humans also have hierarchical systems within our societies.

I'm not a social scientist or expert. I majored in Accounting LOL!!!

However, your post about eugenics and social engineering kinda proves some of my beliefs. It's not really about race per se. It's about which group(s) of men (especially, the leaders and ruling class) are in the power position in the society. Within a race/ethnic/social/class group, the WOMEN & CHILDREN of the men in the weaker position always suffer.

Anonymous said...

NijaG

Point taken that it's not just the "white man". I am not in disagreement with you over whether or not most societies are patriarchal or even that the idea of eugenics originated from white males, but rather what I had in mind was Halima's post about bw being duped by bm leaders into restricting mating options to only one race or spinsterhood, which, I feel ties into eugenics. So-called miscegenation (race-mixing) laws were created by believers in eugenics, and bw were targeted because it was believed that they were the breeders of an "inferior" race. There were prominent (white) women who were ardent supporters of eugenics and even started organizations to help spread the word about exterminating "human waste". Bm community leaders were recruited by them to sell the black public on the idea of exterminating themselves.

I believe eugenics would not go away if patriarchy were someday overthrown, because I think the belief, although hidden very well, that bw are "inferior race" breeders is still around today and that this belief is not exclusive to one gender. But that's just my personal opinion.

Esho Woman said...

Thank you, thank you, thank you Fatima!
I have been following this blog for the last couple of months and I do strongly disagree with some of your ideas, you hit this one right on the nose. The relationships between black men and women will never be healed unless we talk about what how the image of the white woman has effected gender relations between black men and women. One of the reasons for the gap between intermarriage rate white women are more valued than black women even by the black men who dedicate their lives to the liberation of their people. Neither whites or black men will talk about it except to make jokes.
How are black women supposed to deal with romantic advances from white men when we have the twin burdens of black male martial rejection and the horrific centuries old stereotypes that are still widely accepted by all men?
When you talk to black women try to be gentle and patient, this is a complex issue for black women.

LorMarie said...

because I think the belief, although hidden very well, that bw are "inferior race" breeders is still around today and that this belief is not exclusive to one gender. But that's just my personal opinion.--Anon 2:55

This is the very reason why I don't trust the new developments in assisted reproductive technologies. I've read one too many articles where black women carried (in the womb)the children of white couples via the use of ART. There is even a fertility doc in NYC who says that he can manipulate genes so that people will be able to choose the hair, eye, and even skin color of offspring.

Since men (in this case black men) can't carry and give birth to children, why not manipulate the genes of bw so that we will no longer produce the so-called inferior beings? Or better yet, let us surrogates to white couples. That's where ART is headed, IMO.

Halima,

have any of the black male identified pan africanist women responded to this phenominal post? I'm curious to know how they rationalized their belief in loyalty to the almighty black man after viewing all the facts you presented.

Even I am shocked at the number of these so-called black nationalist males and their white wives. Again, they can have white women. What I can't stand is their almost ubiquitous manner... don't tell black women to be loyal when bm clearly are not. Don't preach hatred of white men because it takes a white man to create the white woman you prefer.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with their white wives speaking out on their behalf. I'd rather these white wives do it than black women.

PS, I've got a question to ask you about a well-known black woman living in England. I didn't post it here because I did not want to stray too far from the topic. I'll be sending you an email with a link to an article about her.

E said...

Great post, Halima. Hard for the DBR-lovers to argue with pictures even if they try to argue with common sense. statistics and plain truth . Esho Woman, I think you are wrong. I have but one life to live on this planet and my life, my blood, sweat, and tears, will not be dedicated to "healing the rift between black men and black women". Ha, the thought makes me giggle! How absurd and narcissistic what I be to have to try? Even if I birthed 20 black children for the cause, I couldn't salvage black America all on my own. And WHY would I care two hoots about a group of men who, as you put it, value other women over me simply because of skin color? It ain't that complex an issue for me. Let the mammies and DBR-lovers worry about the "image of the white woman". I was born in 1982. No slave-owner raped my grandma. I don't spend my days worrying about "twin burdens" and marital rejection What a miserable way to live. It's 2010. Yes, some of the "horrific centuries old stereotypes" about black women are terrible, but these days it mostly black me who seem to believe and disseminate them, and loudly, too. It seems to me that black men are the ones trying to kill black America with their worship of all things white and light. Everyone can see it clear as day. I chose to accept the "romantic advances" of a man who offered commitment, love, support and a shared future. He has proved to be dedicated to me and offered marriage. Of course we discuss race, racism, sexism, religion and discrimination, but not every moment. We are too busy LIVING life. If he were green, I would have been prepared to happily bear half-green kids with him by my side. At some point "gentle and patient" gets old. You only get so much time on this earth and my time will be spent with those who prove they and I share the same interests. That has nothing to do with race. JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURES!

Oshun said...

Esho Woman,

My guess is that "we" no longer exist. It is clear that BM don't care and are unwilling.

In my estimation it was all a con game. Looking at this post the BMs plan from the beginning was to use BW for all they were worth to uplift himself.

Any benefits that trickled down to BW and children from these "movements" were purely incidental/accidental.

MissASP said...

Wow! I'm 16 and I read these BWE blogs but I never replied until now. This is so pathetic....just know that there are probably other young bw like me who've been reading for months but haven't said anything. I saw a gorgeous bw at the movies today with a wm. I'm sure they get harrassed by bm all the time because she had a pretty face, long hair (not that long is *better*, her hair looked really healthy and nice), and a nice body. Her bf/hub was average from afar but most bw get good looking wm (looks are secondary anyway). Anyway, thanks! I can't believe these guys. You should see the bm on YouTube who put down bw in every video they make. Then when I object they call me all sorts of names and say that I like thugs because im a bg. Even when they know I'm 16 they say some discusting stuff. Anyway....I know this is all over the place and random but do you know of a good way for young bw (when i'm 18) to meet English wm? Idk if they typically like bw but anyway, thanks!

tryexcellence said...

Halima,
I'm a long time lurker, rare commentor. I couldn't go without commenting on this post. I read it a few times and have just now come back to post a comment because I've been letting it marinate for a while. The title of the post says it all. Girl, you are baaadddd!

ak said...

Yeah I'm sorry to be like this but the talking about early 20th century eugenicists and their sterilization requests for black women sounds like the topic of the post is derailing a bit and it sounds like some people are shifting blame away from black men yet again by black women who love deal in 'transference' a bit too much by saying that whites who believed in this eugenics is all to blame for these 'revoluntionaries' behavior.

You're telling me that the feasible excuse for a black man who claims to be doing or is actually doing work to liberate black people and separate black people from whites so that blacks no longer have to deal with them, is to marry and date white women or as was suggested earlier with Garvey, bring over a 'white queen' to be the head of the new set of AAs going back over to Africa??

When black children, boys and girls, grow up seeing that what are they supposed to think?

These 'revolutionary' BM types seem very colorist, like they want to populate the earth with light-skinned black people only and THEY are the ones who should be questioning themselves about THAT, they shouldn't be shifting the blame ALL THE WAY BACK to early 1900s eugenics and their ideas of sterilizing black women and black women shouldn't help them to shift their accountability either.

And as for this:

'So-called miscegenation (race-mixing) laws were created by believers in eugenics, and bw were targeted because it was believed that they were the breeders of an "inferior" race. There were prominent (white) women who were ardent supporters of eugenics and even started organizations to help spread the word about exterminating "human waste". Bm community leaders were recruited by them to sell the black public on the idea of exterminating themselves.'


If black men back in the day couldn't see that whites wanted them to erase themselves and erase black women from the face of the earth didn't make sense for themselves to take part in, then of what use were they ever then? Why do we even want to revere them?

PioneerValleyWoman said...

A great example of this phenomenon--an African man coming from a younger generation, Mark Mathabene, born 1960, known in the late 1980s because of the anti-apartheid struggle. He wrote Kaffir Boy--it elevated him to international status.

We can then see his liberation from apartheid when he moves to the US to go to college--he then wrote Kaffir Boy in America, a few other books in honor of the women in his family, and then eventually, Love in Black and White...the story he wrote with his white wife about dating and marrying her.

He wrote about how his dating and marriage was a shock to many in the movement who idolized him and supported him in his endeavors.

Talk about making presumptions. Well, having grown up under apartheid, he must be a genuine black nationalist? Instead, he was interested not in nation-building, but in integration to meet his own purposes and aspirations.

Isn't it the model black man's liberation story sold as the liberation story for all black people?

Black man comes of age under apartheid's brutal oppression, through playing tennis he gains the ability to go to college in the US, where he can do so much more to help himself and the family he had in South Africa.

The only loyalties he had to black women were the loyalties he had to those in his family. But that did not stop him from marrying a woman who looked nothing like them.

Black nationalist women need to get a clue.

I never was a black nationalist woman, because anyone with eyes could see what was going on...from black nationalism in the 1960s onwards...

ak said...

PVW, from the 1960s and onwards? From the comments on this blog and the whole post, try from the 1910s, 1920s and onwards!

ak said...

And yeah E, I don't blame you for one minute my dear. You only have this one life and no one is going to bring happiness, security and prosperity to it if YOU don't give it to yourself.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

And what is remarkable as well about some of these so-called black liberationists, is that they got the political power to be put in office, but where was the economic power to advance their countries' interests?

If it remained in the hands of white international interests or in the hands of the former colonial elite, ie., those connected to their white wives...what was liberation about?

It was really about getting theirs, especially when you hear about the corruption that beset various of those regimes upon black nationalism and decolonization...

Georgia said...

After reading this entry, all I can say is WOW.

MY GOD! WOW! It was all A LIE.

And just last week, I learned that our beloved MLK jr. was a HUGE philander, who called his discretions : Anxiety Reduction!

(I CRIED FOR TWO DAYS WHEN I LEARNED THIS)

And isn't funny, in the end it was only Malcolm X who was THE ONLY who really lived, and loved what he preached.

Because, while the white killed MLK for "black freedom and unity."

Malcolm was killed by his own people (black men) for calling them hypocrites.

Anonymous said...

PioneerValleyWoman, I had never heard of Mark Mathabane before, so I googled him to find out more info.

I discovered that he wrote a book with his wife about their interracial relationship. So I clicked on the amazon link.

The book sounded like it could be quite interesting until I read a library journal review and came across this....'The Mathabanes contend that black women show the greatest hostility when a successful black man marries a white woman'

*Yawn* The usual claptrap.

cool_splash1 said...

Yeah I'm sorry to be like this but the talking about early 20th century eugenicists and their sterilization requests for black women sounds like the topic of the post is derailing a bit and it sounds like some people are shifting blame away from black men yet again by black women who love deal in 'transference' a bit too much by saying that whites who believed in this eugenics is all to blame for these 'revoluntionaries' behavior.

How is that derailing when the post stated that the biggest supporters were those black male leaders?

cool_splash1 said...

You're telling me that the feasible excuse for a black man who claims to be doing or is actually doing work to liberate black people and separate black people from whites so that blacks no longer have to deal with them, is to marry and date white women or as was suggested earlier with Garvey, bring over a 'white queen' to be the head of the new set of AAs going back over to Africa??

I also found out Vessey planned something along those lines as well. Scary ain't. It sounds like the Mestizos and how when they won the fight the men married the elite lighter women just keeping the okey dokey light is better and in power thing all over again. Sometimes I think women need to let these men fight those revolutions themselves while we do our own thing.

SweetSoulSister said...

Oh my goodness. Where have I been? I've never been steeped in black culture so, I only know who a few of those people are...( of course I know Julian Bond, WEB Du Bois, Richard Wright, MLK)but, I never cared enough to look up their wives/mistresses. Very eye opening indeed. I guess because black males have never registered on my radar, I just didn't care and I still don't. My head isn't spinning over the fact that these individuals talked black and married white-because that's par for the course, my head spins over the fact that black women have been so easily bamboozled. I don't give to black organizations, at all. The NAACP would see a cold day in hell (if you believe in that sort of thing) before seeing any money from me. I feel that way about all black organizations. They all take advantage of the typical black women and her money. I've never been a typical black woman.

As for Julian Bond saying black women didn't have much to do with the Civil Rights Movement, I can't even comment. He's always been a sleaze (remember the cocaine addiction?)and will always be. I take anything he says with a granule of salt.


*sorry for typos*

SweetSoulSister said...

BTW, fantastic post , Halima.

Anonymous said...

I wanted to add also that I've heard that Martin L. King cheated on Coretta with white women too. I don't know if it's true but it makes you wonder. It just shows that true black unity doesn't exist. Even James Brown who sang about being black and proud was with a white woman. I was shocked when they showed her and her son with him. I have no problem with black men and white women as long as they don't try to restrict black women from doing the same.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Anon at 7:28 pm:

The book sounded like it could be quite interesting until I read a library journal review and came across this....'The Mathabanes contend that black women show the greatest hostility when a successful black man marries a white woman'

*Yawn* The usual claptrap.

My reply:

Indeed; when I read the book years ago, I borrowed it from a white female friend. The book just seemed to be the white girl's guide to dating and marrying black men.

The book was all about the resentment they experienced individually and as a couple, from blacks and whites, including stories about the black women who were so angry. But once again, "love conquered all," and they could be at peace with each other and their love.

I'm so glad that there are books today for black women interested in dating interracially, because it seems to me that books like Mathabene's are not about black women at all...it's about celebrating black men and their choices. Now we have ours!

Karyn Langhorne Folan's book is coming out soon--I'm not sure whether Halima has advertised it yet...

http://karynlanghorne.xanga.com/

NijaG said...

PVW said

The book was all about the resentment they experienced individually and as a couple, from blacks and whites, including stories about the black women who were so angry. But once again, "love conquered all," and they could be at peace with each other and their love.
***********************************

My response:

It's easy to understand why the black South African women would be angry. Most times women think that they are working as a team when they are helping men out. Especially in situations where as a group (race/ethnic/class, etc) both genders are suffering social injustices. However, once these injustices are address in some form or the other, the women always get the short end of the stick.

That's why, while I admire what many black activist accomplished and the roads they paved, I don't put people on a pedestal. Many male leaders personal lives and ethics usually don't match their public persona's and ethical morals they preach.


Majority of males leaders are not there to really serve the people but to be worshiped. They may have started off with good intentions but most times their EGO's gets in the way.

That's why we as women have to look out for our own BEST interest FIRST.

Anonymous said...

I have been reading your blog for a while and this by far is your best. Its no wonder why the black race cannot achieve true greatness.

Khadija said...

Halima,

Another excellent post! My thanks to you and your researcher.

{chuckling} I knew about some of these men and their White wives, but I had no idea about Cheikh Anta Diop's White wife. And yes, during the years of my Black Nationalist trance, I frequently hear Mr. Diop's name thrown around as one of the premiere Black, as in ultra-Black, African historians. Somehow, nobody ever mentioned his WW. {more chuckling}

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Esho Woman said...

@E Those who do not know the past are doomed to repeat it. 60% of black males have white ancestry so how do you know your female ancestors were not raped? The ancestral injuries do have an effect on how black women see white men today.
How do you expect the average black woman to understand your point of view if simply dismiss their concerns? I live in an area where white men to not date black women. I can be as open and willing as I want but it is not going to change that fact. If you really want to reach black women don't treat them like they are brain washed dummies, it's insulting. Many black women do not believe that a white man can be trusted to be a loyal partner and will not simply treat them as a sex object or even find them beautiful. Chill out on the hateration, so we can have a real conversation.

Lovebug said...

@Esho Woman

So what do you suggest that black women do?

I'm sorry, but black women cannot and will not get anywhere by focusing on the obstacles and/or using these obstacles as an excuse for self-defeating behavior. It is as if these women expect someone to feel sorry for them, maybe hold their hand and guarantee them happiness as a reward for past suffering. Reality check: this will never , ever, ever, ever, ever happen!!! Black women need to realize that they and they alone are responsible for their own happiness no matter how unfairly they have been treated or the amount of disadvantages they may face. Even in the Christian Bible, God who loves us more than anyone else does not promise us happiness(read about the lives of the saints: Peter, Paul, etc.) because life is about building character and overcoming obstacles is the best way to do that.

So if a woman finds herself in a situation where the man are not receptive, that is unfortunate but the fact remains that her happiness is her responsibility. Not the white man's, the black man's, her mother's, her father's or any other person's responsibility. Therefore, unless she doesn't truly want to be happy, she should look for ways to get around this instead of becoming discouraged and losing hope. Maybe relocating to an area more receptive to interracial dating, using the internet to meet people, etc? If a black woman has trust issues with regards to white men, maybe that is an issue she can address in prayer and/or therapy.

I understand that you may have a different viewpoint and I respect that. However, I truly believe that a lot of the problems black women face today is a direct result of the fact that so many of them don't understand human nature and how the world works. People will always look out for their own personal interests first and foremost. Therefore we can't and should not depend on other individuals to look out for our own best interests. It is the job of each individual to look out for their own best interest and theirs alone. It may not be right, it may not be fair, it may not the way we want it to be but that is the way it is. The people who live truly fulfilling lives are the ones who learn to embrace this reality by working to overcome the obstacles they encounter instead of becoming discouraged, feeling sorry for themselves and/or expecting someone else to do something about it.

Halima said...

Anonymous
thanks for the link to skyscraper's African Forum, i poached some of the pictures from there so I must give credit to the posters Micheal and Machieveli.

Halima said...

Esho woman

I hate to say this to you but your comments seem to be always all over the place. one doesnt know wether you are arguing for black women to be free or to remain imprisoned still slaving away for black men with no rewards.

Why are your comments so disjointed? Why are you arguing five issue strands all at the same time. What has this post got to do with white men in your area who dont date black women?

Do you see why your comments often end up in the comment bin!

Maybe you are writing in another language and translating to English or something but there is just some problem with being clear, keeping a focus on one issue at a time and indeed understanding what this forum is all about...and one thing which it is not, is a forum that has any patience with any idea of healing the rift between bm and bw.

if bm are interested in healing any such rift, let them make the first move!

Evia said...

Halima, what some bw are still not getting is that this is the PATTERN for bm and has been for a long time. A huge proportion of prominent bm worldwide talk black and rail about racism and then sleep/marry white. And since it's a PATTERN, they can be predicted to continue doing this into the distant future.

So, as bm 'move on up,' they WILL move on up with non-black women almost exclusively. This is the PATTERN. No bw should be surprised about this, and bw should completely stop helping, supporting, or defending bm in any way IF they're expecting these males to be loyal to bw in any way. It's that expectation that causes the hurt in bw and keeps lots of bw "waiting."

@ The ancestral injuries do have an effect on how black women see white men today.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but this is the kind of ridiculous stuff that some bw and bm keep reminding bw and bw ONLY.

Well, don't you think it's interesting that these ancestral injuries don't have that same impact on how bm view white women today? LOL! It's not slowing bm down at all as they grab for their white women dates and mates. If anything, it makes ww much more enticing for bm to marry and endow with a comfortable/luxury life. Meanhwile bm and their lapdog bw will keep reminding bw of what the wm's ancestors did and urging their bw "soldiers" to keep fighting the white man. LOL!!!

Keep in mind that not only do these bm marry these ww, they leave their fortunes and legacies in the hands of these women. As usual, I have to point out that I'm NOT blaming these ww for scooping up all they can. I always point that out because bm and various enemies of bw would LOVE to turn this into a cat fight between bw and ww. Ww are not forcing ANY bm to pursue and marry them.

@I live in an area where white men to not date black women. I can be as open and willing as I want but it is not going to change that fact.

I can be in a place with my white husband and a LOT of bw and bm who know that we are married will still claim that wm are not interested in dating or marrying bw. LOL!!!! This is why I continue to show the pics on my site. This kind of statement of yours is pure PROPAGANDA to keep bw angry at wm by claiming that wm don't find us appealing, when in actuality it's anger-filled "soldier" bw who are rejecting wm. There are LOTS of sista-soldiers out there--not just one.

And it's now the PATTERN for upwardly mobile bm to reject bw for dating and marriage. It's MAINLY the lower on the ladder "struggling" bm--the type with lots of issues nowadays who's the most interested in a bw because he can't get easily get a ww or non-bw and he's looking for a bw who will be his mama and his woman/wife. This is supported by current research that studies black-black marriage.

I'm talking about blacks in the U.S. and UK here.

I don't know whether you're the unwitting carrier of this propaganda, but if I were a wm, I would not be interested in dating you because you are angry at wm. You are NOT "open" to wm. You are angry. Do you think that a typical wm cannot detect this anger and from way across town? I'm not saying that every wm or even most of them are interested in dating or marrying a bw, but ENOUGH of them are.

Halima said...

ITA Evia

Some bw act like if only white men raped bw during slavery.

I dont know how to tell some folks this because it might mess up their warm fuzzy notions of black community, but black men also raped bw during slavery.

They bm had more access to these vulnerable often near naked black women, and they were all too aware that no structures where in place to give bw a measure of protection, not to even mention that bw were being b$%&& by the slave owners to replenish the slave population.

of course this mere 1 + 1 fact is suppressed because it doesnt rhymn with the accepted article of faith binary of 'evil white man, brotha black man'!

Every body raped bw during slavery; from wm to ww to bm!

Esho Woman said...

Wow Halima and E,
That was really insulting especially since you know nothing about my background let me fill you in. I am a Ph. D. student in film theory, who has spent years in academia. As an academic I see the fact that the few black men in my field are married to white women everyday. It is especially painful since the white men do not give me a second glance even though generations of concubinage has given me light skin and long hair. I cannot just pick up an leave my job. I am writing a dissertation and do not have the time or money for internet dating.
I am for black women increasing their dating opportunities, but for most black women who value their ties to the black community and are aware of how racially gendered aspects of American culture affect their lives, this is not an easy task. Calling women who do not value individualism as much as you do crazy pan-Africanists does not help the average black woman become more open to interracial dating. For your information I have casually dated Asian men who have treated me with respect, but the white ones who have approached me have only wanted one thing. Can you accept someone who can see both sides or are you simply going to discard my comments when I am trying to start a dialogue that could help your cause?

Halima said...

esho woman, since you are an intelligent woman, I am sure that you are not in any confusion as to the options that are now available to you.

I doubt that you need Evia or I to spell it out for you.

Your comments are however littered with too many historical references, like concubinage and slave rape etc that point to the fact that you might not be ready to bury the hatchet with white men enough to make good on any interacial opportunity with them. they may or may not be detecting this.

you can either free yourself from things that will not allow you free movement in the multi cultural context, which is now the one opening up to black women, and one in which bw must now seek to meet their needs, or you can hold on to 'history', 'culture' and all those other things that have put mental and emotional blocks in the way.

Now I am in no way saying that there are no racist white men around you, but just as there are racist wm who wont give you the time of day, there are also bw who insist on continuing historical feuds with white men and wont give them the time of day as well. It is not just a one way/white man thing!

If asian men are open to you and you to them, why not go that route and be at peace. ITS ALL GOOD!

any bw who in the face of the clear choices laid before them still needs to be convinced, are not going to be convinced by any logicall argument for sure. clearly theirs is an emotional healing issue.

Evia said...

I am for black women increasing their dating opportunities, but for most black women who value their ties to the black community and are aware of how racially gendered aspects of American culture affect their lives, this is not an easy task.

I'm going to address some of the nuances in your statements. This whole idea of yours that a bw must break her ties to the bc if she marries a wm is BOGUS. Plenty of IR-married bw CAN and often do maintain ties that she values to the black community(if she chooses to do so). As I said, maybe you're an unwitting carrier of propaganda, but this is a poisonous idea that is often planted and nurtured in the minds of many bw whenever the topic of dating and marrying wm is discussed.

You're also implying here that most blacks have a great amount of love and pride in their blackness. They DO NOT. We may as well just be honest about it and admit it. If MOST blacks had the love and pride in their blackness, the various black communities would not be in CHAOS. Most blacks cling together BECAUSE they feel rejected by others and feel they don't have any choice but to stay around other blacks.

So SOME bw do NOT value or love their black heritage in the first place, even if they're with a black man or tied into the bc. If those women marry a wm, OF COURSE, they will use that to distance themselves from the bc once and for all, and other blacks will blame it on the white husband, when actually the bw wanted that move. I know some of these women.

Calling women who do not value individualism as much as you do crazy pan-Africanists does not help the average black woman become more open to interracial dating.

What do you call bm who value what you call "individualism"? And it's bm who are the main culprits of "gendered racism" against bw these days. Yet you're here fussing at us who're telling bw to flee all of that pain. If you want that pain, then stay there with them and it's a guarantee that you'll get it. I get tired of some of y'all bw acting like somebody is trying to force y'all to separate from black folks and "black love." Not at all. Stay the heck there and get all of that 'black love,' girl!! LOL!

And to value and devote your life to something that is being proven to not exist is a flight from reality, or what is commonly known as "crazy." This is the point of Halima's post.

What sense does it make for ALL bw (if that were the case) to be pan-Africanists if the vast majority of bm are now SHOWING that they want a European woman? How can there be this "black utopia" if it's made up mostly of women--unless you're advocating polygamy.

And remember that NOBODY practices "gendered racism" more than BLACK men!

So the only choice that most bw have is to either 'mate out or die out' and that's not a tough choice at all since many loving and loveable men surround us every day. And obviously the majority of bm TOO only want ONE thing from bw. Those bm who you work with or go to school with with obviously didn't want to marry you. So this is another subtle piece of poison you've stuck in, saying to bw that wm ONLY want sex. Well, I'll just point out that bm ONLY want sex from bw.

And if those Asian guys are treating you well, then why not marry one of them? Why are you here saying that wm don't want YOU? And why are you even reading this site when you KNOW the fact is that the lion's share of bw who marry IR will marry WHITE men?

ak said...

Esho woman:

The ancestral injuries do have an effect on how black women see white men today.


Would you, Esho woman, call black men getting lynched way back in the day for looking at or talking to white women in order to 'preserve the purity of white womanhood', an 'ancestral injury' ?

Because none of the being lynched under the excuse of 'protecting white women from black brutes' from the past seemed to affect black men or change their minds from seeking out the women that they really wanted. Even though white women visited and had their photos taken at lynching 'get-togethers', and none of the white women did anything to stop the lynching of black men as if they were flattered with the white men's 'chivalry and protection' of them.

And now they want all black women to stop dating and marrying white men who are of Quality because of BW's great-great-great-great grandmas?

ValeriesWorld said...

This is such a very interesting post, I confronted my father about this and the black power movement, I asked why when I was growing up, we were told never to marry a white man, white men will do this and that and many of our so-called leaders were married to non-black women, he said that the issue about their lives never came up. I told him that as far as I am concerned whatever comes out of black men's mouth, I have to treat it pinch of salt, until proved otherwise and they lied to so many women. I praise God that I am seeing the truth every day and my daily prayer is that black women wake up and live their lives, be the people they want to be and do not concern themselves in what people will think.

lisa99 said...

Every time I think you've written your best post ever, you top yourself!

Just for a few laughs, regarding Diop... there is a picture of his wife here. It's very small, but she is near the front of a group of people marching for the rights of African people. Diop is the man holding the sign in front.

http://blackrevolution.net/BLACKREV/CFBR/PAGES/cad_demo.jpg

ak said...

Halima:

I dont know how to tell some folks this because it might mess up their warm fuzzy notions of black community, but black men also raped bw during slavery.

They bm had more access to these vulnerable often near naked black women, and they were all too aware that no structures where in place to give bw a measure of protection, not to even mention that bw were being b$%&& by the slave owners to replenish the slave population.


What you're saying makes sense. Creepy, criminal men of any color love to take control of and take advantage of any vulnerable girl or woman point blank. The whites just need to take up African slaves, would they care who's 'good' or 'bad' when they did a whole lot of whipping, shooting, and beating to keep them in place?

Anonymous said...

Why do the BW who clearly hold a grudge against WM (as a group) wonder why they have the LEAST luck dating them?

When a person is closed off to another individual, it manifests itself in the body language and how they interact.

People generally know when somebody isn't feeling them.

Remember the adage: actions speak louder than words

PioneerValleyWoman: My biggest peeve with these WW-BM 'our-love-is-oh-so-special' types is that they seem to FOCUS only on the BW who are opposed to their relationships.

These folks never seem to encounter any WM, WW or whoever else felt resistant towards them. It's always conveniently a BW.

As always, BW are portrayed as the 'haters' who have nothing better to do than hate on them and their relationship.

One famous example is Taye Diggs. When his show 'Kevin Hill' got cancelled, he was quick to let the world know that BW were hating on him being cast with non-BW romantically.

Yet....when he was getting death threats from a deranged WM, you heard hardly a peep from him.

These folks seem to have all the bravado in the world to call BW out, yet they're silent when it comes to dealing with others.

Co-sign on the IR books for BW comment.

Halima: Hallelujah! I am so tired of folks acting like BW were only ever victimized by WM.

I suggest the people who keep going on about BW being exploited take a look at the stats post-slavery relating to domestic abuse, rape and harassment and read up on who is inflicting what on who.

ak said...

Hi Evia

I think that maybe you should just direct Esho woman to your website where you had pictures provided by Felicia was it(?), of TWO Jet magazines from the 1950s where there were plenty of photos of black women married to white men who weren't exactly broke and down-and-out either I might add! LOL

Felicia said...

'The ancestral injuries do have an effect on how black women see white men today.'



BM have been injuring BW and black girls through rape for CENTURIES. And it continues to this day.

Is anyone really clueless about these HORRENDOUS accounts?

South Africa's Rape Crisis: 1 in 4 Men Say They've Done It

http://www.time.com/time/world/
article/0,8599,1906000,00.html

AFRICA
Rape used as weapon in DR Congo


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/
africa/2009/10/2009102282534764573.html

Child-rape epidemic
in South Africa


http://www.wnd.com/news/
article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25806



And these are just a few of the numerous reports from Africa. Which help explain why the AIDS epidemic is decimating populations on that continent.

Even after the devastating earthquake in Haiti, you read stories like this...SMH


Haiti: criminals 'raping women and girls in camps'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/
haiti/7098443/Haiti-criminals-raping-women-and-girls-in-camps.html


We all know about the Dunbar Village Atrocity which occurred on American soil in an African-American HELL hole. It was one of many crimes against humanity that often occur in fatherless ghetto's across America.

I could keep reciting horror after horror but those BW and BM who want to pretend (lie) that it's WM that your typical BW and girl has to be afraid of KNOW the truth themselves.

The FACT is MOST women regardless of "race" have the HIGHEST likelihood of being raped and assaulted by men from their OWN background. Period.

So... you would think that any ancestral injury that a BW experienced (if she's going to have one) would negatively effect her feelings towards BM since BM have historically and to this day raped and abandoned far more BW.

People - men and women - regardless of "race" need to be looked at as individuals and judged based on their BEHAVIORS and their behaviors ALONE.

Not what they say but what they DO.

QUALITY regardless of "race".

truth p. said...

Hi Halima,this is longtime lurker truth p.I just wanted to comment on a certain poster saying white men don't find black women attractive.

Halima that's a lie.I consider myself to be a big girl.Though this has NOT affected my ability to attract men whether they are black(we all know they don't care about weight if they think you got something to offer them financially or a place to sleep), white, or hispanic.I am also medium-dark complectioned depending on the weather.I do NOT have long hair or light eyes.Yet I have had, and continue to have, white men,black men,biracial men,and even a hispanic man approach me for dates.

The white men that approach me have been very straight forward and have done so out in the open while i'm at work, or just out and about.They have approached me IN FRONT OF black men and others that they and I work with.I'm only saying this to say I look like regular folk and I get "Holla" from white men.

I am literally baffled when I hear other black women say white men don't find them attractive.I just don't get it Halima.I'm not trying to be mean or say these women are liars.But as a big girl with a medium-dark complection, shoulder length hair.and brown eyes white men are asking me out on dates IN FRONT OF BM AND OTHERS.What is wrong with these women?I live in Ohio near Kentucky.We have tobacco chewing "hillbillies" here and even they try to hook black women. NO LIE.Come to Cincy and go over the bridge and visit Newport on the Levee you have to beat them off you with a stick.

My Aunt Mary is heavyset, the mother of three black kids, and she has been married to her white man for 15 years.Who treats her, her children, and her 2grandchildren like they are his own might I add.Her black HUSBAND walked out on her and my cousins early. I know that's NOT typical but my aunt looks like an average black woman.She's a nurse at a hospital and he owns a taxi service.They live real good.

Btw only the white and other men have treated me well.I think the black men felt because I was a big girl I don't deserve respect or to be loved.I'm glad I never slept with any of them.You should see how black men act when they learn they are dealing with the one heavy black girl that has no problem telling them NO when they have the nerve to ask for sex or money.I can say this from personal knowledge, black men hate to be dissed by big girls more than they hate to be dissed by the Halle's and Gabrielles.Sometimes they get so mad I think they're gonna hit me.Thankfully that hasn't happened.

(sorry for the long post)

arthur said...

.. Karyn Langhorne Folan's book is coming out soon--I'm not sure whether Halima has advertised it yet..

Hi PVW .. Amazon has it now ..."Don't Bring Home a White Boy: And Other Notions that Keep Black Women From Dating Out"

Harmony said...

Well... All I gotta say to these Pan-African women who are stuck in la-la land regarding bulding love with black men, etc. is "I told you so".

Maybe these pics will finally wake them up to the fact that they were sold a crock of you-know-what. LOL.

For me, these pics only proved what I already suspected for a while now; that the vast majority of so-called black race men were/are anything BUT. And I've never been a Pan-Africanist, black nationalist type of person, so ultimately, I'm not hurt by all of this.

This may be a bit off topic, but I just wanted to add this bit of info regarding eugenics.

"I urge everyone to head down to Barnes & Noble, Borders, or go on Amazon and get a book titled "War Against The Weak" by Edwin Black. His other works on this subject are eye-openg as well. Eugenics and social engineering are hardly mentioned in these kinds of discussions nowadays unfortunately, and dismissed as "conspiracy" or something that was over and done with decades ago. But, as they say, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

A very interesting and eye-opening book I read regarding Eugenics is called Killing the Black Body, by Dorothy Roberts(sp)?

This book opened up my eyes COMPLETELY to the reasons why black women are subjected to more social restrictions than others, including black so-called men.

Oshun said...

@ Georgia

Isn't it sickening?

I have women in my family who participated in the civil rights movement who confirmed that this type of behavior was common.

Oshun said...

Thank you Halima for such a wonderful post!

Thank you PVW for sharing so much knowledge!

@ general

I was never a Black Nationalist because they kind of scared me. But this post did make me choke back a hurl. Outright lies and manipulation..


@ anon

"I have no problem with black men and white women as long as they don't try to restrict black women from doing the same."

Personally 50 pounds of flesh- for me and all my BW ancestors with compound interest.

For me it is beyond them dating/shacking/marrying white women it is that they are using all BW resources/capital (political, intellectual, emotional, financial) in the process of the come up to get to and give to Becky.

Everything a BM has accomplished personally and professionally is due to a BW because we have always been the supporters, funders, and foot soldiers of every movement/org etc that has occurred within the so called BC.

Anonymous said...

Good Post, as a matter of fact I asked my African born bw co-worker about some of those African male leaders. I think she was a little tired of me asking and I told her that we were not taught in school that quite a few male African leaders were married to ww.

WOW, these people were married in the 50's and 60's. Anyways, my co-worker quickly said that these men married ww because they were getting information from these women and with that we stopped talking about the subject.

BTW, it would appear my co-worker's daughters are having a little bit of trouble getting their fellow African man to marry them and they are attractive and educated...sounds familiar?

The African male leaders' behavior sounds familiar...the Black Panters and various bm politians.

ann

Oshun said...

@ Esho Woman

"60% of black males have white ancestry so how do you know your female ancestors were not raped? The ancestral injuries do have an effect on how black women see white men today."


Many AA women have white ancestry why the focus on BM?

I do get what you are saying about ancestral memory. In my religion there are things we do to heal those patterns and pray for the elevation of our ancestors.

But on the flip side who is raping and molesting BW and girls now? Who is murdering BW and girls when their sexual advances are rebuffed?

I wish I could say I was the only one to be sexually assaulted, or who has dealt with being physically threatened by some BM bc I won't "speak to him" or allow myself to be sexually accessible to him, but the more people I meet - this kind of behavior is rampant among BM.

Why are you holding dead WM to a standard that no one in the BC holds living BM to?


"I live in an area where white men to not date black women. I can be as open and willing as I want but it is not going to change that fact."

How do you know? Racists exist, but some BW have also been very vocal in every medium available to announce to the world that they prefer and only want to be with BM following that with insults and the like to nonBM. No guy is going to openly pursue a woman after having that etched in his memory.


"Many black women do not believe that a white man can be trusted to be a loyal partner and will not simply treat them as a sex object or even find them beautiful."


But yet in the face of all evidence they will believe a BM will? Are BM overwhelmingly loyal partners? Are BM even marrying BW in large enough numbers? Do you think the 70% OOW rate is evidence enough that BM are currently treating BW as sex objects? Do BM elevate skin colors that match their own, traditional African features and hair texture in BW or do they fawn over and pursue straighter, finer featured, lighter, brighter, and WW to marry and have children with?


I think your last paragraph sounds like the traditional spiel that BM run on BW to keep them afraid of expanding their options. This keeps you right where they want you: easily accessible as their personal bank, maid, chef, gofer, baby sitter, nurse, booty call, and whatever else they want from you....


There are no guarantees. You will meet jerks bc there are a lot of them in the world. You may meet racists bc they exist too. Not everyone will be attracted to you bc no one is attractive to all people in the world.


But I do believe that other men are attracted to BW. I do believe that some of them are loyal and make good husbands.

Anonymous said...

@ Anon. 4 08,
"Acquiring (whether by marrying or f**king) a "The White Man's Woman" is a sign to them that they are equal to their Caucasian counterparts or that they've stolen something from them."

IMO, most bm do not get the fact that most wm do not accept them totally as an equal, although you too maybe good golfing buddies.


a.

Oshun said...

@ Halima

"Some bw act like if only white men raped bw during slavery.
......

Every body raped bw during slavery; from wm to ww to bm!"

I can believe that 100%

Oshun said...

@ Ak,

Good point.


"Would you, Esho woman, call black men getting lynched way back in the day for looking at or talking to white women in order to 'preserve the purity of white womanhood', an 'ancestral injury' ?

Because none of the being lynched under the excuse of 'protecting white women from black brutes' from the past seemed to affect black men or change their minds from seeking out the women that they really wanted. Even though white women visited and had their photos taken at lynching 'get-togethers', and none of the white women did anything to stop the lynching of black men as if they were flattered with the white men's 'chivalry and protection' of them.

And now they want all black women to stop dating and marrying white men who are of Quality because of BW's great-great-great-great grandmas?"

Anonymous said...

NiGa, As you said the children were thought of as belonging to their Nigiern father and that lessens and idenity problems.

a

Anonymous said...

Esho, with respect I agree with those who say time for bw to wise up is running out, enough of the gentle talk.

a.

Anonymous said...

Yes, research for yourselves and you maybe surprised at what you locate. I used to always wonder why some wg/ww knew when certain bm entertainers were in town and then go to that exact club and party with these guys.
It simply did not occur to me that these men were seeking other race women aside from their usual attractive AA woman.

a

Anonymous said...

Esho, is obviously late to this game. You may wish to move to a more diversified neighborhood.
And, you should stop you whining and get on board. The train is leaving.

a.

Anonymous said...

I was wondering what wm think about this particular post?

focusedpurpose said...

LOL !!! Halima, this post rocks! thank you for it.

blessings,
focusedpurpose

focusedpurpose said...

yes, i learned awhile ago: the blacker the talk, the whiter the woman! lol! thanks again.

-fp

focusedpurpose said...

Anon 10:08 PM, thanks for the reference.

Halima, again i thank you for your platform and posts. your commenters enrich and grow me.

blessings all,
focusedpurpose

focusedpurpose said...

Georgia-

yep. Malcolm X. love him.

somewhere i read mlk would have married a ww had his father not intervened.

moving forward powerfully is the best thing to do...

focusedpurpose said...

Esho Woman, i hear your concerns.

you said, in part:

"Many black women do not believe that a white man can be trusted to be a loyal partner and will not simply treat them as a sex object or even find them beautiful."

i say:

IF bw, DESPITE the many examples and evidence to the contrary, can STILL believe quite a few bm will be a "loyal partner and will not simply treat them as a sex object or even find them beautiful", then surely they can embrace the notion that non-blk men will.

sis, if you are having a problem embracing wm, please do yourself a favor and at least consider giving other nonbm a chance. of course, you should vet like a nobody's business. the truth is, as i understand it, MEN are MEN.

sis i comment with empathy, compassion, and love for you.

blessings,
focusedpurpose

trish said...

Black women have options. That's all these blogs are really about. I don't get why people are still confused. Most groups have some evil history (not a historian) with another group but it doesn't stop people from falling in love. Statistics show that African American men seem to be averse to marriage, and they are especially averse to marriage to black women once they become successful. It doesn't take a genius to figure that maybe one should consider looking at men from other groups. The emphasis ought to be on quality men and not the person's race. If quality Asian men pursue you then go in that direction. You’re living in America so statistically speaking there are more white men available for marriage than any other group and that is why the emphasis is on white men. If we were a group of black women living in Asia then I imagine that the emphasis would not be white men LOL. At the moment China has a surplus of men over women and they may have to start thinking outside the box as well but I digress. The key word is OPTIONS.

Huda said...

lool, that was fun to read.

I just don't understand this whole Pan-Africanism. I know historically, West & Southern African men whether politician or activists have married white European women (not so much for East Africa), but perhaps I'm missing the exported ideas of PanAfricanism into North America. The premise has been historically to get rid of colonialism and the wretch that is still the political bankruptcy in the Continent of Africa, and less about whom you are dating or married to. However, majority of African women to this day whether Christian or Muslim are rarely dating or marrying 'quality white men,' while their male counterpart due date if not marry white women.

As someone who's parents immigrated from Somalia, I usually ignore these people outdated arguments, even thou I've yet to date a white man. These 60s racialist argument is just bullshit, ignore them, they are delusional.

LorMarie said...

Because none of the being lynched under the excuse of 'protecting white women from black brutes' from the past seemed to affect black men or change their minds from seeking out the women that they really wanted. Even though white women visited and had their photos taken at lynching 'get-togethers', and none of the white women did anything to stop the lynching of black men as if they were flattered with the white men's 'chivalry and protection' of them.

And now they want all black women to stop dating and marrying white men who are of Quality because of BW's great-great-great-great grandmas?--ak


Amen, ak! We can't believe the hype on two counts:

If a bw is correct in rejecting wm because of wrongs committed against bw, then we would also be correct in rejecting bm because of wrongs committed against bw...many times over.

On the flip side, black men were killed, tortured, etc many times because of the word of ww. Yet, it hasn't stopped bm from pursuing them. Thus, history should not prevent bw from dating or even marrying wm if she desires them.

Esho,

I do understand that there are many bw who are so affected by racism and anti-bw hate that we need to be gentle in our approach. I really do understand that. Just think, how can we reach a bw if she has experienced racism from mostly wm? We can explain to them that racism, hate, and even murder hasn't stopped bm so stereotypes and racism should not stop bw.

Also, wm aren't the only men in the world. If you are having a great time with Asian men, just date them if you really can't fathom a wm. WM don't have to be at the top of a bw's list.

arthur said...

Anonymous said...

I was wondering what wm think about this particular post?

4:32 AM


I guess generally it seems to us most wealthy/famous bm will date or marry ww, and bm in general seem to go for ww; nobody pays much attention to it.

More of a puzzle to us is how loyal bw are to people and institutions that anyone can see are just using them.

Truth p. said...

Hi Halima.this is lurker truth p yet again lol's.

I just had to come back and say that WHITE WOMEN RAPED AND CAUSED THE DEATHS OF BLACK MEN DURING SLAVERY.I read a book about slavery and it was highlighted that some white women got jealous of their white husbands having sex with black women and to get back at them the white women would frame black men.They'd tell black men to have sex with them and that if he refused they'd accuse him of rape.The evidence of those relationships were sometimes these women, who were wives of white men, bore black looking biracial babies and of course the black man that impregnated these women would end up beaten and hung to death.Some instances the white woman was killed also but not most of the time because they simply claimed they were raped and were afraid to tell.

I also read an interesting article that talked about the black man shortage that OPENLY gay black men experience which is resulting to them sharing black men.In the article openly gay black men talked about how they DON'T have the option of dating out because of them being attached to the stigma of ALL gay black men allegedly have aids or hiv.These men expressed wanting to date WHITE and other non black men.I find it very fascinating that these men were very open to dating out.I also found it interesting how many gay black men are dealing with alot of the same things that enough black women are dealing with in regards to a black man shortage and the act of sharing men as well as being involved in non committal relationships with black men.The articles also said that as a result of the man sharing and non committed relationships these men were experiencing a higher level of std's and aids.I'm only mentioning all that to say that when BWE bloggers mention the shortage of black men, and especially of quality black men, you all are called liars but gay black men are now saying alot of the same things.I won't even get into how similar to black women ,these openly gay black men are experiencing physical, mental, spiritual, emotional,sexual, and verbal abuse at the hands of other black men.

zoopath said...

Great post Halima, I had no idea it was that widespread. I bet some of those men would say that there weren't any wife-quality BW in the circles they travelled in or whatever BS excuse.
However, I am mad at you for getting that song in my head, lol. I can't believe you used that for a title, that'll have me chuckling all day.

Bellydancer said...

What cracks me up now is that black men are trying to run to Brazil and the Dominican Republic for women and then have the nerve to say they are serious about marriage with these women because they treat them better mind you now they paid these women to have sex with them and to treat them well. LMAO at these silly ass black men for calling us black american women gold diggers while they keep running off to foreign places thinking they are getting something better after paying for it of course.

Evia said...

More of a puzzle to us is how loyal bw are to people and institutions that anyone can see are just using them.

Arthur, I talk with whites who are puzzled about this quite often. Some of my white in-laws and I discuss this topic of bw's IR dating & marriage at family get-togethers often because there are several IR marriages in Darren's family AND because they know I write about this topic.

They ask me why more AA women won't date and marry wm. My in-laws are middle to upper middle class, all degreed, professional people and they all mingle with other whites of that type. They know that wm ARE interested in dating bw and are expressing this interest by way of trying to ask bw out, but the bulk of bw continue to not give wm the green light.

My in-laws mainly live, work, and socialize with other whites so they know what other whites are thinking. They think I know why so many bw are "closed" to wm, but aside from the usual yadda-yadda, which makes bw look more foolish by the second, I really don't have the answer.

So when they ask me this question these days, I just shrug and smile. LOL!

@Zoopath re:

I bet some of those men would say that there weren't any wife-quality BW in the circles they travelled in or whatever BS excuse.

Exactly! This is why I've tried to get bw to realize that the current set of excuses that bm give for rejecting bw are BOGUS. Those excuses shift for each time period. Those excuses about how bw won't cook, are too fat, are too mouthy, have oow children, wear weaves,have too much education, etc. are all LIES. You mean to tell me that these national leaders of African countries couldn't find soft-spoken African women who wore natural hair, didn't have oow children who weren't overweight and who would cook and clean for them, and without too much education????? These men too, had their excuses as to why a bw wasn't suitable for wife material, though I'm sure they sexed a lot of bw.

Any time in history when bm have gotten the opportunity to get a ww without the bm getting severely penalized, like being killed, they have done it and they WILL continue to do it. Of course, they try to use those excuses as a "cover" because some of them realize how DBR it makes them look to be blasting the wm with hate while loving the white man's mother, sister, and daughter and giving their assets back to the wm through his female relatives.

So these males want the world to think that those "terrible" bw are so "unfit" and have given them no choice but to choose a ww instead--since according to them, SOME bw won't cook and clean for them and since SOME bw wear weaves and have oow children. SMH

So at this point, I have 2 kinda, sorta rhetorical questions for SOME bw reading this.
1. Why do SOME of you keep listening to and believing ***anything*** these males say?
2. Why are SOME of you even still interested in these males--at all?


I honestly don't have a clue as to the answers to these questions. Not anymore.

NijaG said...

Truth P said:

I just had to come back and say that WHITE WOMEN RAPED AND CAUSED THE DEATHS OF BLACK MEN DURING SLAVERY.

I read a book about slavery and it was highlighted that some white women got jealous of their white husbands having sex with black women and to get back at them the white women would frame black men.They'd tell black men to have sex with them and that if he refused they'd accuse him of rape.The evidence of those relationships were sometimes these women, who were wives of white men, bore black looking biracial babies and of course the black man that impregnated these women would end up beaten and hung to death.

Some instances the white woman was killed also but not most of the time because they simply claimed they were raped and were afraid to tell.
***********************************

What you said above highlights some of the patterns we see btw WW and BW rlsps, especially in present day America. It's like a love-hate rlsp.

Imagine in those days that as a white woman, you're being told by your men, that you're better than these BW and that they're not even fully human (and all that jazz made up to justify enslaving people). However, everywhere you and female peers look you're seeing quite a few light-skin babies and children that you know are products of inter-racial mixing.

So, on one hand, while you know that some of these children are products of rape and abuse against black women, there are also many cases where you know they aren't.

To summarize, there is this push-pull rlsp that WW have towards BW. While their men may put them on a pedestal, they also have a vested interest in making sure they stay on there. That's why I'm not surprised to learn that there were WW (many of whom most likely came from the middle to upper-class) that supported eugenics, anti-miscegenation laws, etc.

These women were the ones whose families or husbands had or could afford slaves. Many had to turn a blind eye to what their fathers, husbands and sons were doing.

Women compete for men and I'm sure some saw black women as competition.

Couple this with the feelings of black men and that's why both groups seem to have a vested interest in keeping BW and WM away from each other, although it's done in different ways by both groups. That's why also when some BM and WW get together you get that vibe they they are doing it almost as an act of rebellion to piss off the opposite gender of their respective races.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

What I find so striking is that so many black women are not using their critical thinking skills when thinking about issues like these.

As others have mentioned, don't they realize that black men see dating white women as a coup, in that they are gaining access to the white man's most precious possession, his woman...

And rehashing the old "white men raped our foremothers" makes no sense today.

Black women today are not living in the same world as black women generations ago, and don't they realize that when a black woman dates and marries a white man who puts her on a pedestal, she is vindicating the memory of all those black women of earlier generations who could not get such treatment?

The black women who could only be concubines, etc.

Black women are vindicated in a similar way in which black men see themselves as being vindicated...

Shimmy said...

I just had to come back and say that WHITE WOMEN RAPED AND CAUSED THE DEATHS OF BLACK MEN DURING SLAVERY.I read a book about slavery and it was highlighted that some white women got jealous of their white husbands having sex with black women and to get back at them the white women would frame black men.They'd tell black men to have sex with them and that if he refused they'd accuse him of rape.The evidence of those relationships were sometimes these women, who were wives of white men, bore black looking biracial babies and of course the black man that impregnated these women would end up beaten and hung to death.Some instances the white woman was killed also but not most of the time because they simply claimed they were raped and were afraid to tell.


In response to this, this part of slavery was shown in the old movie Mandingo. Also, right after slavery several black communities were burned down and destroyed because of false accusations of rape from white women. This was also shown in a movie called Rosewood.

What people don't want to know is that there were some white men that truly did love black women. Some black people in this country have researched their genealogy and found out that they are descendants of white men that established families with black women. It wasn't all because of rape.

About the African leaders with white women, I think this is one of the reasons why some of those countries still have sort of a caste system with lighter skin women at the top. Some of the women in Africa bleach their skin because they believe that it's a way of social climbing and that the men will desire them more. I think they have internalized this from the African men that think white or whiter skin is better.

Lovebug said...

@PioneerValleyWoman

Thank you for making this comment:


"...and don't they realize that when a black woman dates and marries a white man who puts her on a pedestal, she is vindicating the memory of all those black women of earlier generations who could not get such treatment?"

It is truly unfortunate that a lot of black women don't realize that they cannot and will not move forward by holding on to their resentment of white men. Their resentment only hurts them, the white man does not feel it at all.
The only way to move forward is to let go of past hurts. Not just for interracial dating, but most importantly, for their own spiritual, emotional and mental well-being. Holding on to past hurts is not a sign of a mentally, emotionally and spiritually healthy individual. Maybe, that could be another reason why such a woman might have difficulty finding a quality partner.

NijaG said...

What cracks me up now is that black men are trying to run to Brazil and the Dominican Republic for women and then have the nerve to say they are serious about marriage with these women because they treat them better mind you now they paid these women to have sex with them and to treat them well. LMAO at these silly ass black men for calling us black american women gold diggers while they keep running off to foreign places thinking they are getting something better after paying for it of course.
***********************************

I find it funny too. Let's not even get into the exploitative aspects the whole thing.

We all know the real reason these DBR BM go to these places. It's to get the exotic mixed black race looking women.

Why is it that they don't talk about going to Africa to find women. There are lots of women there taught to also cater to their men, if that's their major complaint against AA BW.

Nonsense and Rubbish!!!!

ak said...

NijaG As I've said before these black men do NOT want to have fully black-looking children, they obviously don't whether they're pan-Africanists or not. They clearly want the 'blackness' dead and cleaned away from their line. The book that came out in the early 90s (I think?) called The Color Complex said this especially of some upwardly-mobile black men.

I agree with Evia when she said that clearly some black people do not love or have pride in themselves, not in their blackness anyway. Because black communities would be doing a whole lot better, constant bm/bw marriages happening in the churches and such would be more of a given and nothing that anybody would even have to wonder about, and fatherless black kids would be closer to a rarity.

Evia said...

don't they realize that when a black woman dates and marries a white man who puts her on a pedestal, she is vindicating the memory of all those black women of earlier generations who could not get such treatment?

The black women who could only be concubines, etc.



Exactly PVW!! I realize that Darren's love for me and his CHOICE of me for a wife FLIPS the history of bw-wm relationships on its head. Without realizing it, his choice of me for his WIFE vindicated many bw of the past who could only be a wm's concubine.

As a matter of fact, I almost cried one day when an elderly bw who's a member of the local black church I attend and who's about 85 years old came up to me and told me how proud she is of me for marrying Darren because his family is considered a solid, upstanding family in this area. She said she could remember clearly how bw could once only clean the homes of white people in this part of town and couldn't even imagine owning property out here, let alone being chosen for a wife.

I invited her over one afternoon and we strolled all around some of our acreage. She was just OVERWHELMED, became misty-eyed and her voice quavered. She told me, "You did good." It was obvious to me that she feels that I have vindicated MANY of our black female ancestors. It was almost a spiritual experience.

In her eyes, I have definitely staged a coup! LOL!

Bw could CHOOSE to look at this issue this way. Instead, they prefer to look at it through the eyes of self-serving, damaged beyond repair bm who keep fueling the anger of bw towards whites so that bw can continue being these angry sista-soldiers fighting a "war" that never was. This particular post of Halima is clearly showing that there never was a "war" when she is showing that the pan-Africanist and black nationalist "Generals" and other officers and on down to the rank and file bm were sexing, marrying, and deliberately funneling the war's assets to the women of the so-called enemy. IMO, it's not who they sexed that's important; it's who they legally gave their assets to that's CRITICAL because in any situation, it's imperative to ALWAYS follow the money trail. And where did these assets come from? The lion's share came from the sweat, toil, and support of bw.

It's obvious that these bm felt and feel conquered and defeated by wm. Therefore, as others and I have said before, sleeping with/marrying ww makes the typical bm feel more like a wm because he wants the power of wm, but it's also obvious that these men were and are damaged beyond repair. Just look at the black world today which has been led by black men. Is it surprising to anyone that the black world is in chaos?

Trust me--anything that you help a bm to get and especially if he 'moves on up' stands a high probability of subsidizing the life of a non-bw. Period. But it's HER fault.

Evia said...

Part 2

Some bw are ticked off about the bm-nonbw thing because they want those bm themselves. They want bm to "come back home." NOT ME. I've never particularly wanted a bm; I've always wanted a Quality man. So, I'm very satisfied with the choices I made in men. My dog is in this fight because of this continued PATTERN of bm siphoning off critical assets (money, support, defense etc.) from bw and giving those assets to non-bw whenever bm have a chance to get a non-bw. That's the price they pay to feel more like a wm. That's all that I, Evia, care about. THE ASSETS. I care about this because after they've drained those bw, those bw then EXPECT and PRESSURE other bw to be the emotional, financial, and physical support replacements, and the majority of AA women, for sure, take on this role of being mammies for the bc. Many bw feel they have no choice but to share THEIR resources (energy, time, money, etc.)with these struggling bw and their children because the men are long gone. Now, I have a problem with bm leaving their responsibilities period, but when we consider the history and the critical needs of bw and black children in the present, this makes this sitation totally vile.

These bm are STILL doing this and they still have these crazed, sista-soldiers out there fighting these wm and ww "blue-eyed devils." LOL!!!! It is indoctrinated INSANITY for these sista-soldiers to be attacking ALL of 'de evil wm' for what their ancestors did hundreds of years ago when they so easily overlook and FORGIVE the atrocities of the truly evil bm of the past and present who continue to victimize them and their children!

Bw MUST learn to see INDIVIDUAL wm as INDIVIDUALS. Actually, those bw who learn to do that are going to be the only ones in the future who will survive and thrive because like it or not, white-skinned men control the world and will not be giving that control to bm EVER. And if they did, bm would still choose non-bw as mates. Either way, those sista-soldiers are going to be scr#wed.

This is it, y'all. YOU had better make your choice TODAY and don't look back.

Bw, make it your mission to try to de-program one of those sista-soldiers today!

Evia said...

Oops! I meant to say above that "it's not HER fault--meaning it's not the ww's or non-bw's fault when bm crave them.

It's MOSTLY about bm WANTING TO BE WHITE MEN and wanting to have the ***stature and privileges***of wm without having to do the hard work to get that stature and privileges.

Many bm want that stature so badly until they will accept practically any caliber of ww because when people see them with her, he ***thinks*** it gives him the appearance of having by his side what the bulk of wm have--a ww. Thus, in his mind, he has become a wm. This is why I made up this term for the vast bulk of black men: Damaged Beyond Repair or DBR.

Not saying ALL of them, but the bulk of bm are going to be like this for a VERY long time (if not forever.)

Anonymous said...

Great posts everyone. I only have one thing to add. I wouldn't even call the acts of these DBR BM a pattern. It is beyond a pattern. It is a pathology - The anatomic or functional manifestations of a disease, in this instant the disease of self-hatred and BM racism against BW.

I don't want to veer off the topic but I can't help but add that I thought the topic of Eugenics was apropos, perhaps not in the way it was being discussed in regards to whites efforts to sterilize BW. However, I think BM, especially upwardly mobile BM have been practicing a form of Eugenics for centuries. Their pathology has been to try to mate with & create offspring with at first the lightest of BW during segregation and lynching times and in the present with non-BW in the alleged "post-racial America."

My two cents.

Felicia said...

Evia said...

"I invited her over one afternoon and we strolled all around some of our acreage. She was just OVERWHELMED, became misty-eyed and her voice quavered. She told me, "You did good." It was obvious to me that she feels that I have vindicated MANY of our black female ancestors. It was almost a spiritual experience."


I've had that same experience with elderly AA BW. It IS a beautiful thing and spiritual.

Whenever I visit California and my family goes back to church with my relatives, the elderly BW (even the elderly BM) look at me and my husband and children with PRIDE. Because I'm living the kind of life they can personally relate to. The kind they remember. The only difference is my husband is German/white. Everything else is the same.

And they are wise enough to realize that THIS is what's important. QUALITY and the continuation of important values, skills, history and wealth being passed on to the next generation. A BW being loved, cherished, and well provide for.

A BW's children doing well. Confident and secure.

We - those of us BW who've married well and have TRUE men (providers, protectors, and involved fathers) placing us on the pedestal - give these older BW HOPE. Because they are of an earlier generation of BW that had a LOT more common sense (and self-respect because most came from TWO parent loving environments as opposed to today) then today's BW. Many of whom do to a host of reasons are simply lost.

THANK YOU PVW for your well thought out, POWERFUL, and TRUE way of thinking about current MODERN day BW/WM relationships and marriages.

It IS a vindication when you really think about it. And also a sign of the hard earned FREEDOM (thanks to Mildred and Richard Loving) that BW AND WM now have to exercise.

GREAT post and GREAT responses all around.

Evia said...

I only have one thing to add. I wouldn't even call the acts of these DBR BM a pattern. It is beyond a pattern. It is a pathology -

Yes, I agree, but IMO, it's a PATTERN of pathology. It doesn't just ***randomly*** occur. It can be PREDICTED to occur, with regularity. There are branches of science and math that deal with the study of patterns because they give you a shortcut for understanding certain phenomena. Remember the pattern predictions from achievement tests where you had to predict what comes next: circle, circle, square- circle, circle, square-circle, circle ________.

The typical bm's behavior is predictable in this regard. Give a bm position, money or power, and he will virtually always try to mate lighter or whiter (or non-black) or just plain white ESPECIALLY when there's no penalty. That's a part of his general pattern (of pathology). Sometimes, there's a deviation from this pattern, of course.

I just got off the phone with my ex-husband, a Nigerian. I asked him about these pan-Africanist Africans marrying ww and how the Africans viewed it. He said it became very controversial in Africa and caused such a ruckus to the extent that African governments made it against the law for any leader in government to have a white wife. Also, they made it clear that no Nigerian company could hire a Nigerian man who was married to a white woman. This sent the strong message that any Nigerian man who wanted to be employed, move up,or hold any position of power could not marry a non-black wife. And this was strictly ENFORCED. They could not control who the men sexed, but these men couldn't be caught with a white woman or else they could lose all of their power or their job and be socially ostracized. This is in force until today in some African countries. Other African governments did the same thing. If not, ww would be sitting next to most of those African men until today.

Some of those African governments had to outlaw the import of bleaching cream too, he said because bleaching skin was so rampant in some of those African countries. Still is, but those creams are smuggled into some of those countries these days.

SheCodes said...

I'm sorry to come late, so I hope that I'm not repeating what others have said too much.

There are many, MANY more examples than the ones that Halima has highlighted. The amount of black "race" men who either marry, sex with, or have children with ww will rock you on your heels.

In my early twenties I was primed to join the black nationalist groups until I was slapped in the face with this trend + misogyny on all levels of leadership. I might have been young, but I wasn't stupid.

Although I have NEVER had a problem with interracial relationships of any kind, the sheer volume of these kinds of choices spoke to a greater issue that made me sick to my stomach.

I'm only left with the opinion that these men have absolutely no interest in fostering a powerful black community -- what they want is the white man's life -- his influence, his money, his power, his woman.

Additionally, they are not just willing to sacrifice the souls, the efforts, the progress of black women in the process of reaching this agenda -- they believe that consuming bw potential is the ONLY way that they will get it.

Which makes them more than misguided: it makes them evil.

Sandra77 said...

Wow. Halima and all the commenters to this post - thank you.

BWF said...

Bw, make it your mission to try to de-program one of those sista-soldiers today!

========

I was with you until that point. I have neither the interest, time or engery to be bothered with such women. Those "Im black 1st, a woman 2nd" type of bw are a pain in the ass to deal with; they have way too many racial hangups to date IR. It's best for all parties involved that they just stick with their "brothas".

Unfortunately, some bw are dead weight and have to be left behind. ::shrugs::

Zindzi (aka Black Girl Pain) said...

EshoWoman: I just wanted to say I completely understand where you're coming from, and like Focused Purpose, my response comes in love & compassion. Evia encourages us to de-program a "soldier sista" but I don't think we can do that if we respond harshly to them whenever they don't mimic what we want them to say...and bring up issues that we really aren't prepared to confront (i.e. the fact that a lot of BW DON'T get approached by WM, and its NOT the BW's faults).

I encourage you to date non-Black OR White men. I am not part of the camp that believes a BW's best/only chance at IR happiness is with WM, especially because of the issues many of us do have with them (issues that are not without premises). I think BW probably have a lot more in common with non-BM who aren't white, and many of those men are EXTREMELY open to BW.

As someone with a Black nationalist for a mother, I was well aware of the fact that many "race men" talked Black and slept white. I'm also aware of the fact that many of them didn't (including my personal favorites Fred Hampton & Malcolm X). People will do what they want to do, but if you're truly a nationalist in your heart, your beliefs will not change based on the hypocrisy of others, because you weren't a nationalist or pan-Africanist for THEM anyway.

I don't believe "most" BM date/marry WW. That's just not statistically sound and I haven't found that to be true from what I've observed (and I've been around all types of BM from pushas to professors). But I do believe most BM aren't marriage-minded while most BW are, and that sums it up completely. No need for portraying BM as monsters or assholes (because if you're still that concerned with them, you probably shouldn't be dating IR). IMO, all that demonization really has the adverse affect on many BW. Since many of us have been indoctrinated with the belief that the Black community still exists, and we owe unending loyalty to BM, attacking BM makes many BW defensive and only pushes them further into situations with BM. Plus, BM just ain't that damn interesting to constantly be bringing up...just my opinion.

I've been VERY vocal about IRR among my friends lately, and I put it to them like this. At this point, a BW only dating BM is like applying to only one university. If you don't get accepted, you're screwed.

p.s. When was Cornell West involved with a white woman? (This question is the the 1st anonymous who announced that)

Evia said...

I was with you until that point. I have neither the interest, time or engery to be bothered with such women. Those "Im black 1st, a woman 2nd" type of bw are a pain in the ass to deal with; they have way too many racial hangups to date IR. It's best for all parties involved that they just stick with their "brothas".

I respect your response. We each should do as we personally think is best.

My issue though is that SOME folks will say that, yet when bw and their children are being savaged--as they usually are, folks will be putting pressure on ALL of us to "do something." I personally would rather try to "do something" or de-program a bw BEFORE this happens than be pressured to give, give, and give to get her and her helpless children out of the fire. For ME, that's just makes more sense. Thus, my essays.

But, to each her own.

ak said...

Wow Evia so only the law could keep things in place for Nigerian women and their generations? They had to make these restricting laws otherwise a lot of ww would be right by Nigerian and other African men right now??

Wow. It's almost a way of some of the African men being like ' It's not that I really DO want you, it's that I have no choice but to be with you in case I lose everything ' regarding the African women!

Not entirely flattering though is it? LOL LOL

ak said...

SheCodes:

I'm only left with the opinion that these men have absolutely no interest in fostering a powerful black community -- what they want is the white man's life -- his influence, his money, his power, his woman.



Yeah SheCodes it seems to me like the black men only want the wm's money and his woman because as Evia's said here and on her own website, the black men don't want to 'pay the cost to be the boss'.

They don't want to do the work that goes into building Shell, Texaco, BP, Shell, Citibank, Chase, Barclays, Enron, MSN Windows, Apple etc. for generations to come but they will just settle for the large house and the large car(s) and as many live women as there's left in the world, but some of even these professional white-collar ,especially the single black men might end up getting stuck much like the single playa black male lawyer that Khadija talked about on her old website who had the stroke in middle age with no one to turn to! He better hope that he has enough savings and assets!

I remember reading an interview about Jonathan Rhys Meyers and his role in The Tudors as Henry VIII and they writer told the actor that Snoop Dogg liked watching The Tudors and admired Henry VIII's power. But these bm have to realize that life can't be all 'dallying with the wenches' you have to run a country and govern the people most of the time, prepare for war, make sure you have enough men for the war, declare war, appeal to and communicate with other kings/presidents/prime ministers/leaders about war, trade, debt, and lending money, making and upholding laws, and everything! That had to be Henry VIII real job and making babies with all of his wives had to be close by but mostly secondary!

And modern leaders have to do the same amount of work obviously. Are black men up to the job? Are the ones who are African presidents in Africa up to all of that task?

ak said...

BWF, LOL LOL. I understand exactly where you are coming from especially when those types of BW act like it's 'smack down' time with you and all you did was just open your mouth!

You can 'feel things out' with some BW if you want to once you get to know one but otherwise why bother? Sheesh!

Anonymous said...

I encourage you to date non-Black OR White men. I am not part of the camp that believes a BW's best/only chance at IR happiness is with WM, especially because of the issues many of us do have with them (issues that are not without premises).



When you look deeply at the "issues" that SOME (not all of us have these issues) black women have with white men, you will find that MOST of those "issues" are actually issues that are related to BLACK MEN and their plight and therefor black men themselves should be taking their "issues" to white men directly. Not putting a mans responsibility on a woman's back. That's punk behavior and unmanlly.

PLUS some of these issues are deeply related to the let down (resentment and envy) that many BW feel because WM as a whole internationally tend to treat WW and the white community in a positive and uplifting manor as opposed to the sorry way many BM these days treat BW, the black children they produce (and in most cases abandon), and the black community.

To further illustrate this point, I HIGHLY recommend everyone read the essay and comments that recently took place on Khadija's blog.

http://sojournerspassport.com/v-for-vendetta/#comments

Anonymous said...

I'm highlighting commenter Neecy who was droppin' SERIOUS science...


http://sojournerspassport.com/v-for-vendetta/#comments

Also, I believe a lot of BW who do hold grudges against WM have misdirected anger. They see WM putting WW on a pedestal and are bothered by the fact BM do not and have never done the same for BW. Instead of holding BM accountable for their actions or lack thereof, its a lot easier to take it out on WM for doing to their women what many BW wish BM would do for them. So they call themselves hating WM while steadily giving BM a pass. Who is that hurting?? NO ONE BUT BLACK WOMEN.

That is exactly what I just responded to – to magenta. That BW don’t really want to accept the reason why WM are more willing to love and protect their women collectively than BM are to do for BW. And it boils down to one thing – LOVE FOR ONESELF and HIS IMAGE. WM love being White and thus love their image. We can argue that their love for Whiteness lies in power and influence the White race has over the world. That is neither here nor there at this point, because it doesn’t matter. the point is, BM do not like themselves or love themselves. everyone knows this including their race loyal BW. This is evidenced in the amount of killings done by the day to one another and their lack of protection and support of their offspring and women. That’s why our communities are in shambles. If you don’t value yourself, you don’t value the things or people that remind you of who you are. THUS, we can conclude, if a male hates himself and his image, he will also hate those who resemble it as well. And for the male who do loves himself, his race and image, he will extend that same love to those who bare it.

BW can continue to split hairs on this and argue the pointless. but at the end of the day until we fully accept and acknowledge this, we will forever be victims of the Black male and Black community and even ourselves. When we fully accept it, we can then realize that its OKAY and probably MOST LOGICAL for BW who love themselves to extend that to other BW who also love themselves. See how that works. We don’t have the luxury of have a collective male group to do this for us, therefore, we have to do what we have to do. And that is to uplift one another and move the hell on. because if we as BW love our image and have tried unsuccessfully to extend that to a group of men who have yet to reciprocate, then MAYBE JUST MAYBE its time for us to extend it to one another. Because we cannot count on ANYONE ELSE to do it on a collective level.

Anonymous said...

BW’s survival will ultimately lie in whether or not we can find commonality with other LIKE MINDED sistas and extend all of our self pride as women into each other. Encourage, motivate and teach each other. AND accept that it will not be a collective group of ANYONE willing to do this for us, BUT there will be INDIVIDUAL NOn BM who can extend love to us on a personal individual level. That is all we can do at this point.

The sistas who complain about WM being racist and then turn around and get upset b/c the collective of WM are not putting BW on a pedestal (because they are too busy loving themselves and their women and offspring) need to get off that bus real quick b/c that is headed to the nearest cliff. BW need to take Non Black men as INDIVIDUALS. Maybe WW or Asian women have the luxury of excluding certain groups of men from their intimate lives. But We BW don’t have the luxury of grouping men and saying “we aren’t going to date that group and only stick with this group”.



I think BW probably have a lot more in common with non-BM who aren't white, and many of those men are EXTREMELY open to BW.



Everyone's free to have their personal opinion but the fact remains that most BW who are interracially married now (as in the past) are interracially married to WM. Not Asian men, Hispanic men, Indian men, Arab men, Native-American men, or any other non white non black men.

Most (not all but most) of these non black and non white other men ALSO prize whiteness in women and the darkest women who hail from these Asian, Hispanic, certainly Indian, Arab, Native-American, you name it cultures will be the first to attest to that fact.

It behooves BW to not cross ANY non colorist decent marriage minded man off her list of potential mates.

Khadija said...

Halima,

One of your commenters came over to my blog (during the "V For Vendetta" post) to continue debating the points that have been raised over here during this conversation. Because I prefer transparency (I don't like behind-the-back discussions), here is the comment that I posted over there in response to her.

I'll understand perfectly if you choose not to publish this comment over here. In any event, this was my reply to EshoWoman:

Dear Eshowoman,

Beloved,

Please take a step back for a moment, take a breath and then return to these conversations. Respectfully, it seems to me that at this moment, your emotions are engaged in a way that makes it difficult for you to "hear" what is actually being said by the other participants. Respectfully, it seems to me that you are hearing people's statements through the distorting tunnel of ideology. Instead of plain facts.

There is much that I could say, but I don't want to write a separate essay here in the comment section for things that have already been addressed. Here, and by other bloggers. Here are my main points.

1-The other blog host's name is Halima. My sister, please do her the courtesy of calling her by her name.

2-You entered that particular conversation at Halima's blog saying that "The relationships between black men and women will never be healed unless we talk about what how the image of the white woman has effected gender relations between black men and women."

Beloved, what has to happen for you to understand that Black men DON'T WANT their relationships with BW to "be healed"?

Khadija said...

Part 2

If BM have NEVER responded to the calls for "healing the relationship between BM and BW" when these calls came FOR DECADES from old-school Black Nationalist patriarchs, what makes you think they're going to respond to appeals from BW about this?

In the late 80s and early 90s, Haki Madhubuti asked his brothers the following question:

"Why are Black women,by and large, more responsible than we? ....Is life worth living as wards of the state, wards of our women and without the ability to actively determine our own destiny?" Haki Madhubuti, "Black Men: Obsolete, Single, Dangerous? The Afrikan American Family in Transition" pg. 90 (emphasis added).

Ever since the 1930s, Elijah Muhammad told BM the following:

"Until we learn to love and protect our woman, we will never be a fit and recognized people on the earth. The white people here among you will never recognize you until you protect your woman.

The brown man will never recognize you until you protect your woman. The yellow man will never recognize you until you protect your woman. The white man will never recognize you until you protect your woman.

You and I may go to Harvard, we may go to York of England, or go to Al Azhar in Cairo and get degrees from all of these great seats of learning. But we will never be recognized until we recognize our women." Elijah Muhammad, "Message to the Blackman," pgs. 58-59.

Elijah Muhammad taught and preached this to BM for DECADES. BM did not listen. His own son, Min. Ishmael Muhammad, married a Mexican woman.

For how many DECADES must BM reject "healing" their relationships with BW for you to let go of that notion?


3-Beloved, you know in your heart that for every single "WM done some BW wrong" story you can mention, there are THOUSANDS of "BM done BW wrong" stories. Horrible stories. Deadly stories. Stop tripping.

4-Furthermore, you know in your heart that nobody over at Halima's blog EVER excused the mistreatment of any BW. From any man. You're doing the "straw man" argument---you're arguing against things that the people who disagree with you NEVER said!

5-Finally, my sister, time is short. BW are in a state of crisis. And this crisis is in its final stages. Now, you can rationalize why you feel the need to remain on the Black- Relationship-Titanic as it continues to sink to the very bottom of the ocean. God respects free will, and so do I. Good luck and God bless.

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

truth p. said...

@Zindi

I respectfully disagree with some things you said.
You said:"(i.e. the fact that a lot of BW DON'T get approached by WM, and its NOT the BW's faults".
Me:Sometimes it is a bw's fault that she doesn't get play from WM.Especially the sister soldier types going on and on about their nothing but a bm ideology and their off putting attitudes directed specifically at wm.WM see MOST bw declaring that they want to have nothing to do with white men and they believe what BW say.So that individual black woman may not feel that way in regards to having relationships with white men but unfortunately the sister soldiers are out there claiming to speak on ALL of our behalfs.

You also said:"I think BW probably have a lot more in common with non-BM who aren't white, and many of those men are EXTREMELY open to BW".
Me:Can you please elaborate on why you think black women would have any more in common with non white men than white men?cause I kinda disagree.I tend to think it depends on the woman and man involved and their personal knowledge and respect of eachother and eachothers cultures.

You said:I don't believe "most" BM date/marry WW. That's just not statistically sound and I haven't found that to be true from what I've observed (and I've been around all types of BM from pushas to professors).
Me:No it is not most but if i'm not mistaken I read that 35% of black men are married and 15% of that 35% were married to white/non black women.Which leaves 20% of black men married to black women.I'm 100% positive that I read 70% of black men that make over 100,000$ a year that are married are married to white women.I'm searching high and low so I can show where I found that at.
I personally don't care about other peoples marriages but I do think it is best to let these women know that there IS a black male shortage.As well as the fact that black men are going to CONTINUE to date/marry outside their race in GREATER numbers.
You said:No need for portraying BM as monsters or assholes (because if you're still that concerned with them, you probably shouldn't be dating IR).
Me:Unfortunately there IS a need for DBRblack men to be CALLED OUT on their behavior in order for some black women and girls to save themselves.Many girls and women in our community can't recognize when they are being played or abused because it so normalized.A while back there would be talk shows that focused on women in abusive relationships all the time.Alot of the women that came on the show were NOT being physically abused but they were being VERBALLY abused and the shows psychologist would tell those women to get out of those relationships immediately.But for black women being verbally dissed is somehow normal and non abusive.This must change.We have to bring attention to the DBR's so that black women would know that the treatment they get from dbrbm is NOT normal and so that they can come away from them.

BWF said...

It behooves BW to not cross ANY non colorist decent marriage minded man off her list of potential mates.

******

ITA!

I realized about 5 years ago that bw who want to get married can't afford to be racist. The bottom line is that the numbers and circumstances arent there; and that bw will be "fighting the power" all by her self because the bm that she's enternally devoted to is out building families/lives with ww.... "ancestral injuries" notwithstanding.

Personally, I prefer white and Latin men over bm so its music to my ears when I hear a bw say she'll never date out.

Halima said...

khadija

thanks for taking the time to address Esho woman. I pretty much lost interest when i saw signs that told me this was some kind of game she was playing with us.

First of all, she raised comments which others took the time to give a response to, she promptly decide to ignore every one of of those responses just to continue lobbing the granades in against white men. when she ignored the responses to continue her 'line', at that point i just deleted her comments because it was disrespecful and it wasnt about dialoging with this forum but imposing her perspective. Also there were some disrepectful jibs included in her subsequent comments towards us.

secondly esho woman's story seems to grow wings, tails, and teeth with each new comment. First she lived in an area where white men didnt date black women and suddenly she has sisters married to white men...

which one is it Esho, white men dont respond to black women or you have plenty of experience with of white men married to black women who treat them wrong, as you stated on sojournerspassport.

See why they say, liars cant keep their stories straight! it seems you want a particular admission from me and will continue to twist and change your story to elicit that admission. yawn and boring!

Indeed first it was white men have historically injured us, and now you have first hand broad range knowlege of their evils.

besides your sense is too jumbled up; first you talk about healing for bw and bm, then being open to other options, then to white men are evil. I guess the comon thread is you are not too keen on wm and we get it, and you should feel at peace with your choice.

Indeed eshowoman, why are you so desperate for us to agree with you, cant you hold your own perspective without us having to agree with you.

And i feel under no obligation to entertain your comments, they add nothing to the discussion.

Khadija said...

Halima,

I'm also finished with engaging that particular commenter on this topic. I just wanted you and your audience to be aware of what this person was saying in at least one other forum.

And the fact that she ran to at least one other forum (mine) to continue the debate out of "earshot" of the original audience (which is behavior that I don't care for---folks need to finish their business where they started it).

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

Evia said...

Evia encourages us to de-program a "soldier sista" but I don't think we can do that if we respond harshly to them whenever they don't mimic what we want them to say...and bring up issues that we really aren't prepared to confront (i.e. the fact that a lot of BW DON'T get approached by WM, and its NOT the BW's faults).

Zindzi, A typical sista-soldier has a bunch of issues that she conflates into anger at wm. I don't think ANY "sista-soldier" should even be trying to date ANY wm. AT ALL.

And insofar as wm not approaching SOME bw, IMO, there are many factors involved, but this idea of 'de evil wm' that some bw have and get shrill about constantly is a biggie. Also, the typical wm doesn't ***NEED*** to date bw because he has a variety of easier, less stressful choices. Can bw just face that fact and stop pretending that wm and bw are on the same footing dating-wise?

I DO believe that there are plenty of decent, serious minded wm on “interracial dating” sites, for ex., like the ones I have in my sidebar who ARE interested in bw, but I would not advocate for any wm to fight or even struggle with a sista-soldier to date her. Some people seem to be advocating this in the subtext of what they say.

One thing for sure is that plenty of people of ALL races, groups, socioeconomic levels, etc. sign up on dating sites and DO meet their mates, INCLUDING quite a lot of bw. Some of those bw are participating in or reading this discussion right now. Those sites ARE effective; that's why they are multi-million dollar businesses now. I wholeheartedly endorse that method of possibly meeting a mate because I endorse what has already PROVEN to have a high chance of working.

I encourage you to date non-Black OR White men. I am not part of the camp that believes a BW's best/only chance at IR happiness is with WM,

And neither am I a part of that camp. IMO, a quality woman's best chance at happiness is with a QUALITY man, and that's why I married a Nigerian man first time around who happened to be a Quality man and married a wm the 2nd time around who is a Quality man. If an Asian man had ever asked me out, I would have gone and may have found him to be a Quality man and might have married him. So, let the record show that I, Evia, have never tried to stand between a bw and an Asian, Hispanic, Indian man. LOL! NEVER!

I feature BW-IR couples on my interracial marriage site, whose pics and stories I receive. Since I rarely receive pics and stories of these other combos, I don't post those often. Wanna send me some?

And I'm well aware that MOST bm who get married DO marry bw. However, 14% of AA men are married to non-bw, according to that NEWSWEEK article. We know the stats also on the high failure rate of many of those marriages, but even so, those men are NOT available to bw during those times and some of those bm exclude bw totally from their dating pool, period.

@AK, re those Nigerian government laws, my ex said (not that he's an authority) that those were necessary at that point and we can see why. I don't know about now.

Let me repeat: I definitely do not care who any bm gets with, as long as I and other AA women are not pressured into his funding and defense network which is exactly what AA women are often PRESSURED to do, on the regular, or we're pressured to fill in after a bm has abandoned the woman and children. This is REAL!

And I repeat that I haven’t heard anyone here or on any BWIR site try to force any bw to get with a wm.

Halima said...

Thanks for your response to Zindzi Evia

Let me add here too that Zindzi i do not appreciate the tone of your post suggesting that somehow i/we at this blog are in 'a camp' that states wm are the best option for bw.

For one this post wasnt even about dating wm, and neither can you point to any such statement said by me or anyone here. So Please DO NOT COME TO MY BLOG TO INSULT ME!

As soon as some of you who have personal resentments against halima etc see what appears to be an opportunity no matter how unrelated, you jump in to use the situation to spew your longstanding resentment in the guise of being objective and caring for the third party. But you are very transparent both in your issues with me and your issues with white men.

White men remain the largest available number of men out there, it is only logical that they will be the main option for black women wanting to expand their partnering options.

Find a way to DEAL WITH IT!

Jacque said...

Halima,

I am fed up now.
How can we get black women to love themselves enough to know and BELIEVE they deserve better?
How? The blogs are a start. And many women are getting the message...thanks Evia, Zabeth , Pioneer Valley and others. How do we do it on a mass scale? Is it even feasible?

kat said...

I think bw need to realize that they are pretty much alone in this world and have to defend themselves(bw dont even defend each other). I Unfortunately bm HATE bw as much as any kkk member. This whole lets hate the "evil white man' is garbage and has brainwashed a lot of bw. I think if bw looked back at who has hurt them the most on a personal level it would be black men. My mother could be consider "pro-black" and a pan africanist. Luckily I grew out of the crap when i took a look back at who has hurt me the most. I was abandoned by my black father, sexually abused by a bm when i was 4, verbally abused by my bm relatives, taunted at school by the three other black boys in my mostly white class( we were the only black kids there. Do you think we would actually be united?? of course not) for not having blonde hair blue eyes like my white female classmates. Bw have to let this pro-black crap go. Any man of any color can hurt you. I agree with the poster who said that non -black men are highly colorist like bm. In my experience non blacks are usually more racist then whites.
* I hope I dont sound to negative. I am not suggesting that bw do not have options. We all have the choice to LIVE WELL(evia) and surround ourselves with good people

Anonymous said...

It is especially painful since the white men do not give me a second glance even though generations of concubinage has given me light skin and long hair.

What got me was when she said this. I stopped reading what Esho Woman had to say after that. She reminded me of that woman on Sarah's blog who was upset about a white doctor (I believe live across the street)who got engaged with her dark skinned neighbor (the woman divorced and he helped her with the divorce)the two became friends and fell in love and got engaged. The woman was all upset. She was confused as to why he didn't go after her a light skinned black woman as well as the asian women, hispanic women who were chasing him.

Evia said...

It is especially painful since the white men do not give me a second glance even though generations of concubinage has given me light skin and long hair.

LOL! I just had to address this. But thank you, Esho, for helping me to prove my assertion that I've made over and over and is reflected in pics of the vast majority of bw-wm couples on my site. The typical wm who dates bw has a MUCH wider appreciation for ALL shades of bw's beauty (plus ALL nose shapes, ALL lip shapes and ALL hair textures)than a typical bm because it should beyond any doubt by now to ANY bw in the USA and UK, for sure, that most bm in these two regions, for sure, are colorstruck and/or CONTINUE TO give the looks advantage to bw with "dainty" OR more Euro facial features.

You're implying that you are apparently used to being favored (by bm and maybe Asian men?) because of your "light skin and long hair" and are shocked that the typical wm who dates bw could care less about that. The simple fact is that if a wm prefers a light skinned woman with long hair, you mean he can't find a WHITE woman with light skin and long hair?????? I've asserted that all along too. Think about it. It's just common sense.

Mashawnda Dowell said...

Wonderful post. We just have to finally get the big picture and see that we are all moving more towards a united race. When its all said and done...we are all of many races mixed into one being. I am only speaking for Americans on here. So what this post is saying is that we need to be free and be loved.

I came to this blog from Evia's blog. I applaud you for creating this post. I noticed the same trend---but with black professional sports players, civil rights leaders, and some other public figures.

We all deserve love. In ending this comment, I am a black woman that looks bi-racial, and I have received comments about how great that is from black men and women and other races. That I should be happy to be able to claim another race...if I wanted to. I felt bad for the people that have made those comments because black is beautiful. I am who I am. I state this because regardless if I am a married woman or single black woman, I am only as strong as my weakest black sister--when it comes to marrying well and mating. So if we have black women that are not aware of self love and mating and marrying well outside of their race or to quality men...we have to educate them so we all are being loved.

We are only as strong as our weakest black sister when it comes to mating and marrying well. We must take care of our black sisters on this front. I believe when we all think like this...we will be just fine. Yes we can look at what these black men are doing...but what are we doing about it? Are we sharing tips with each other on how to marry well? Even when some of us black women marry well we must not close that door to helping our single black sisters---we must marry off our close single girl pals too. YES---take care of your man and your home, but if you have a few aulity black women in your life you should committ to marrying them off well. Assisting them---this should be our creed moving forward. Its our duty and only we can overturn this ill fated trend with single black women.

We get and see the evidence of whats going on...now we have to make a pact to take action and get us all dating, befriending, mating, and marrying quality men of all races. The blogs are great---now we need music, literature, art, images of this to penetrate our current culture.

In regard to marriage we should not commit to any race, only the best man to be loved. Our love relationships are very important and we must start saying this and being honest that our friends,our pastors, and family, or careers do not fill the space for a quality man in our lives.

ITS OUR DECADE FOR LOVE!!!!!!

Okay---I wrote a lot :)

Im thankful for this blog and Evia's for educating me on whats what with black female love.

BLACK WOMEN YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL!!! I LOVE YOU ALL!!!

2010 IS THE START OF OUR DECADE OF LOVE!!!!!

XOXO- Mashawnda Dowell

arthur said...

What Evia said:

.. the typical wm who dates bw could care less about that ("light skin and long hair"). The simple fact is that if a wm prefers a light skinned woman with long hair, you mean he can't find a WHITE woman with light skin and long hair??????..

That is exactly right. If a wm is looking for thin features, light skin, straight hair, etc., he'll go out with Becky.

And I'll take it a step further, and say that any colorism you'll find in a wm who is attracted to bw is most likely going to be in favor of darker skin and more Afro features and hair. That's just how it is.

Truth p. said...

Hi Halima this is truth p, still lurking lol's.What an excellent post this was.I think alot of good and necessary information was shared here.Thank you for this, you are greatly appreciated.

I just came back to try and post something here that I think will be somewhat of a wake up call to some black women.We have to understand that with more black men dating/marrying out, and more and more of them neglecting to gain the necessary education and tools to guarantee the survival of themselves, black women, and black children,we are putting ourselves at risk of dying out and becoming extinct with this nothing but a bm mentality.We need to think about our legacies and lineages.If we forsake having children altogether will there be any trace or mark of us here in the future?If we allow ourselves to be perpetual victims,mostly of bm, what will that mark even look like?

Here http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/boa-sr-last-member-of-bo-tribe-on-andaman-islands-dies/19346945?icid=main|hp-desktop|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fworld%2Farticle%2Fboa-sr-last-member-of-bo-tribe-on-andaman-islands-dies%2F19346945
is a link to a story that I read on aol about a tribe that just had it's last member,a woman, die.That tribe is now extinct.When I was reading the story I couldn't help but to think that maybe if the men within that tribe did some things different the tribe would'nt have died off.The woman of the tribe though married bore no children in her lifetime.I don't no the reason why she had no kids but I couldn't help but to think about black women when I read this.I think its because the woman,though indian?, looks very black.The woman had a story. You can tell through reading about her history of living through british colonization of where she was from, and of being misplaced due to colonization and natural disasters, that she had a hard and stressful life.Perhaps the stress is the reason she didn't or couldn't bear children.They say stress is linked to infertility.

shimmy said...

I agree with some of the other posters about other non white men. In a lot of those cultures, many see striving for whiteness as being the best. Some black women say to date other non white men but many of these men will choose white first if they date interracially. Many, not all, other non white people see blacks as inferior. I find that a lot of times, black people in general don't want to admit that a lot of these other non white people are racist because we are supposedly all people of color. They can definitely be more racist than white people.

shimmy said...

Also, I wanted to say that not that other non white men are not good men but just be very careful when vetting them. I remember one time we had a case in Georgia with an Indian father in law that had his daughter in law killed because she was black. Her Indian husband didn't even tell her that his father was that racist. Some other non white cultures have their own issues with skin color and blacks.

aann4950 said...

That makes sense...a wm can easily get a woman with fair skin and long hair woman. Where as most bm will get all weak knees.

sistrunkqueen said...

Hi Halima

I found this link about African leaders who took money. Their African wives and daughters were complicit too. Africa will never be self-sufficient and always the white man's burden and the Asian man's unlimited resource(oil,minerals) because of the corrupt and greedy African leaders. It is so sickening. Most educated Africans live outside of the continent in the US or Europe. This sick greed in also in the Caribbean nations too (ie Turks and Caicos mess) and the Duvaliers Haiti See link
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/africas-illicit-money-sent-to-western-banks-1891512.html

Evia said...

@Truth P, re:

We have to understand that with more black men dating/marrying out, and more and more of them neglecting to gain the necessary education and tools to guarantee the survival of themselves, black women, and black children,we are putting ourselves at risk of dying out and becoming extinct

ITA!! And re education and becoming skilled in every way possible, bw MUST continue to get as much education and skills as possible!!!! I cannot emphasize that enough. That was drummed into me as a girl, and I pay it forward by continuing to beat that drum because I know SOME bw are indeed listening. If my husband left me today, I would be fine. However, I'm NOT advocating that a bw should go to school FOREVER or ***exclusively*** focus on education because there is a need for balance in life in order to live well.

And at my age, I ALREADY know beautiful, loving, accomplished AA women who are already extinct because they can no longer have children. This is well underway. Just look at Oprah, Condi, Gwen Ifill and the list goes on. There are many regular AA women just like them.

Another element of these discussions that is very disturbing to me is that I think SOME of these commenters come to sites and boards like this to deliberately sow seeds of distress, strife, turbulence, etc. The FACT is that some bw are not even remotely interested in dating wm, and that's fine. We KNOW that. But I take issue with those women constantly trying to argue with those of us who include quality wm in the dating and marriage pool or are in loving relationships with wm already or PREFER wm. Why don't these women who disagree with our choice just go on and love those bm to pieces?

BW's Empowerment is about CHOICES and being accountable for your choices.

And I'd like for those women who obviously have a bone to pick about bw loving wm to ask THEMSELVES, why can't they just find peace with loving the men they want to love (bm?)because many of us have already found peace and fulfillment with loving the men WE want to love and these men happen to be quality wm or in some cases, other non-bm.

HOWEVER, I think some of these folks come to BWIR sites because they know that a typical man of ANY race or group would tend to shy away from women who are burdened down inside and outside by strife and turmoil regarding the issue of dating those men. It's just too much stress!!
Some bm avoid dating ww for that same reason. It's just less stressful. This, too, is common sense.

So, I want to say this in the kindest way possible to those bw who obviously would like to exclude wm from the bw's dating and love pool, you are transparent. No one is trying to stop you from including any man you want in your dating pool. I know I'm not. My emphasis has always been on Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y. That, too, is common sense. So stop trying to either indirectly or directly ***dictate*** which men that I and other bw can love because that will always cause strife. Don't you think that there's already enough infighting among blacks? You do you and we WILL do us. And peace will reign. Common sense, again.

GoldenAh said...

Sorry to be off-topic...

Harvard prof. leaves wife. Click on link to see who he leaves his wife for.

Not saying he's a good, bad or quality man at all, but look at who he desires.

Black women are attractive, beautiful and wanted. Enough with some black women spraying their insecurities and hatred on the rest of us. Okay?

Click here.

Foxycleopatra said...

Re: the law in Nigeria preventing men from marrying non-Nigerian:

I know I am very late to this post but I will add my two cents.

This law was for Nigerian ambassadors (both male and female). If they got married to someone from that country, they would be removed from the post. This caused a stir about 7 or so years ago when a Nigerian woman ambassador got married to a white man from that particular country and then got sacked (fired) because of it. When questioned, she said that she knew the law existed but that since she knew several Nigerian male ambassadors who had got married to women from those countires and still kept their jobs, she didnt think it would be a problem. How wrong she was. When further research was done, it was revealed that this law had only ever been applied one other time b4 this particular woman and in that other case, the Nigerian in question also happened to be a woman. So basically, the only two times this law was actually applied was when the Nigerian representative/statesperson involved was a woman. It had NEVER been applied to the NUMEROUS men who were in similar situations. I remeber at the time, a lot of pple, especially women, in Nigeria complained about it. They could see it for the double standards and sexism that it was. I remember some idiotic Nigerian-American guy wrote into a newspaper saying that "well, two wrongs don't make a right".

So Evia, your ex-husband is right about the 'existence' of such a law (although I don't think the reasons he gave as to why the laws were created in the first place might be completely accurate) but the 'application' of the law has been completely different. It has only ever been applied to women.

Also, on a side note, some time ago, black men in Cameroon were actually protesting on the streets against white men coming there and marrying Cameroonian women. This is although in Cameroon, ir marriage is much more common among the men. Yet these men never felt the need to protest about their fellow Cameroonian men marrying white women but were pathetic enough to complain that white men were coming there and taking all their women!

Faith said...

I just read that link you sent GoldenAh: It's interesting but I think it also misses the point. I wouldn't advocate a man with such low character as a viable quality mate. This man has cheated on his wife numerous times. Anyway, the point is for black women to realize we're actively and intentionally being duped and it's being reinforced by other conquered black men who silently stand by and do nothing. I had one such situation earlier with some guy talking about "togetherness" and "black love" but putting all of the responsibility on the black woman. Another guy just tried to trash a BW's reputation by lying about her on a social media site because she noticed the guy's child had a much lighter complexion and he admitted his wife wasn't black. He then tried to claim she was jealous and mad that he had married a non-black woman when she'd had no idea. Clearly he has issues with self-hatred and taking out his hatred for BW was par from the course. I briefly advised her that there was no confusion or misunderstanding by the way he reacted and attacked her that he was a DBR. Yet she was feeling bad and initially questioned herself. This is why it's very important for BW to recognize the GAME. It isn't about hating BM. It's about properly evaluating the pathology that exists in what I think is a majority when it comes to African Americans and many of other ethnicities. I was just reading about how MLK wanted to marry a white women he'd dated when he was in seminary school and was advised by his father not to if he wanted to be a Civil Rights leader. So of course those rumors of him cheating with Coretta with white women wouldn't be too far fetched. I think we need to finally let go of these lies and myths about the noble behavior of so many of these men because it's killing us from the inside out. Let the males of today figure out how to survive on their own and stop dragging us down with them. Maybe then BW could begin to work together in a more cohesive fashion.

cool_splash1 said...

Notice how he is acting like a football star? Please If this man had left his wife for a ww there would be some ish, but not like this. They had to make a point he left his white wife for a bw. And the comments are just dumb. She mentioned his affairs I wonder if he had been going with black women or looking at bw mostly when married to her.

Evia said...

This law was for Nigerian ambassadors (both male and female).

Foxy, I just got off the phone with my ex again. LOL! I wanted to check on this again. He said he's talking about what happened in Nigeria after independence in the 60s-70s there (which is the period referenced in this piece of Halima's). He said there are what's called "Common Laws and Codes" (or 'native' law) and then there are the standard laws (based on European influence.) He said that the 2 types of laws are equivalent in that the government enforces common/native law or traditions and virtually ALL Nigerians recognize those common/native laws and traditions as being just as strong or even more so than the "white man's" type laws. Most Nigerians I know give even more weight to those 'native' laws and customs, for sure. Maybe that's because the Nigerians I know are in their 40s, 50s, and even 60s.

According to those common laws, Nigerian men could NOT marry a white woman and advance in government or in a Nigerian company. He said, that of course, many Nigerian men sexed ww, especially when they were overseas because the men spent years attending colleges and universities overseas, but rarely did they even think they could bring a ww home.

He also stressed that Nkrumah's white-skinned wife was Egyptian and that Nkrumah needed help from the Egyptians to push the Pan Africanist philosophy in those days. I said, to him, "yeah, right." LOL!

So y'all, the next time you date a white guy and some black person makes a comment about it, just say, "Oh, he's got Egyptian blood." LOL!

GoldenAh said...

>> Faith said...
>> I just read that link you sent GoldenAh: It's interesting but I think it also misses the point. I wouldn't advocate a man with such low character as a viable quality mate.


Oh dear Lord, I even apologized for being off topic. However, I never advocated nor indicated approval of this guy or the woman.

That was not my point.

I do not advocate anything besides what black women want to do that's best for them. Being excessively negative is a bad thing especially about black women and white men - that was my point.

Every woman should do what's best for her. I never said he is a quality guy. I was just showing that here was a white man who found a black woman attractive.

That's all.

End of story.

Sandra77 said...

Arthur, thank you for commenting here. It's always great to hear your POV. I know that we women like to talk about relationships, and men - not so much (lol), so it's great be able to take our talk out of the realm of theory and to receive confirmation from an actual real life wm!

NijaG said...

Most Nigerians I know give even more weight to those 'native' laws and customs, for sure. Maybe that's because the Nigerians I know are in their 40s, 50s, and even 60s.

According to those common laws, Nigerian men could NOT marry a white woman and advance in government or in a Nigerian company. He said, that of course, many Nigerian men sexed ww, especially when they were overseas because the men spent years attending colleges and universities overseas, but rarely did they even think they could bring a ww home.

He also stressed that Nkrumah's white-skinned wife was Egyptian and that Nkrumah needed help from the Egyptians to push the Pan Africanist philosophy in those days. I said, to him, "yeah, right." LOL!

*************************************

Evia,

I asked my Mom since she experienced pre and post-colonialism in Nigeria. She said besides Nkrumah, there are not many government leaders that she knows who married WW. She also mentioned the Egyptian thing also.

She did mention though that in her time, women were not sent to school abroad, the way they are now in the Gen X&Y generation. So, if the men didn't come home to get married then they tended to marry the locals in their environment. Usually those who married non-Nigerians tended to stay and make their lives in those foreign countries, but some come back home with their foreign wives.

Men in her generation who went to school abroad and married out tended to marry AA or Caribbean women if they went to school in the US, or WW if they went to school in England/Europe. That bears out, because most of the "mixed" kids I know either had AA mothers or white mothers from usually Great Britain or Eastern Europe.

Even now in the States amongst my peer group, if the guys do marry out, majority has actually been AAW/Caribbean. In Europe, WW.

NOTE: In Nigeria, the term "Mixed" covers not just race, but kids who are products of different, ethnic/cultural groups, and nationality (eg. Igbo & Yourba; Nigerian & Ghanaian)

arthur said...

Thank you, Sandra :)

Mostly these discussions are about issues internal to the bc, and I don't know enough to contribute anything there. But I do know about wm, and I can see how a bw might have the wrong idea about what we like.

I think a darker-skinned bw who'd been picked on all her life for being dark should know that even though the bc considers her an ugly duckling, a wm could easily see her as a beautiful swan.

Anonymous said...

Huda said:

However, majority of African women to this day whether Christian or Muslim are rarely dating or marrying 'quality white men,' while their male counterpart due date if not marry white women.

If Huda has proof that the majority of IR married Christian and Muslim African women are marrying white men who are not of quality she needs to present it.

Provide links to articles/studies/surveys that prove that assertion.

Otherwise that comment is simply hearsay and a personal opinion of Huda not based in facts.

sistrunkqueen said...

Br careful we have an interloper
I caught on in the latest post about BW in Canada vs. BW ib Europe marrying WM. It's interesting that foreign BW like to tell us American BW to stay with our own , but they have choices where they are. AAW beware of the player haters. Not all BW are our sisters

Anonymous said...

Huda said:

However, majority of African women to this day whether Christian or Muslim are rarely dating or marrying 'quality white men,' while their male counterpart due date if not marry white women.

If Huda has proof that the majority of IR married Christian and Muslim African women are marrying white men who are not of quality she needs to present it.

Provide links to articles/studies/surveys that prove that assertion.

Otherwise that comment is simply hearsay and a personal opinion of Huda not based in facts.
---
It seems rather obvious that the majority of African women are not dating/marrying white men of ANY caliber. Most are dating/marrying other Africans.

Huda was perhaps being facetious when she tossed in the word "quality".

Anonymous said...

Very interesting that the Esho were female royal guards of the king in ancient Dahomey. Now the intentions behind Esho Woman's posts become clear! She's intent on protecting her "black massa kangs" and will try to get all other BW to do the same.

cool_splash1 said...

Br careful we have an interloper
I caught on in the latest post about BW in Canada vs. BW ib Europe marrying WM. It's interesting that foreign BW like to tell us American BW to stay with our own , but they have choices where they are. AAW beware of the player haters. Not all BW are our sisters.

True that. American BW have to becareful calling all bw and women in general sisters like we need to becareful calling bm brothers.
We have to realize that we are going to be seen as competition where there was none before.

It seems rather obvious that the majority of African women are not dating/marrying white men of ANY caliber. Most are dating/marrying other Africans.

Huda was perhaps being facetious when she tossed in the word "quality".

That's may be true and it's just common sense being that most black African women are around mostly black African men , but to say that black African women are not finding men of quality was tacky even if it's trying to be funny or sarcastic (Tip: Men don't generally find sarcasim in a woman funny as we like to think. And now I see there's a good reason they don't)

palmwater said...

Great post Halima. There's nothing I can add here but humour. I recently came upon this video and thought of your post. I just can't stop laughing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNBt4srCn84&feature=player_embedded

Karyn L. Folan said...

Halima,

This is an amazing discussion. It's great to see so many women (and men) engaged with this topic, adding more and more information that makes it very clear that much of this "Black Power" stuff that has held sway in our consciousness for the past forty is years is so much b.s. So is the way history has been interpreted and presented to many of us over the last few decades. The dynamics WM/BF relationships during slavery are far more varied than most realize.

I was recently on a radio program where the host (a BM) started quoting "Roots" to me as a justification for why he had issues with IRR. When I explained to him that "Roots" was a work of FICTION, that aimed to DRAMATIZE and tell an entertaining STORY, he had nothing to say because he knew he sounded like a fool! Sure, Roots is based loosely on fact, but Alex Haley (and the screenwriter, William Blinn--BTW an extremely experienced TV writer-- who crafted the adaptation from teh book) wrote a STORY. A good story, perhaps, but still just a tale. It certainly isn't HISTORY! LOL!

Unfortunately, most American black folks don't know much more history than Roots. They don't seem to understand that Roots is TV and for the sake of drama, there's good guys and bad guys and lots of conflict. Some BM and BW are "acting" out this simplist, reductionist drama in real life as though Roots is the real story of the AA experience of slavery.

As many have said, the facts are out there and it's our responsibility to find them-- and to call out laziness of thought and argument when we're presented with it.

On another point, big props to you Khadija for how you handled EshoWoman on your blog. I think your response showed both character and grace. Kudos on your new book--I've ordered my copy and as soon as the snow here lets up and once again packages are being delivered, I'm looking forward to reading it!

It's great to see how many comments this discussion has generated (I spent the evening reading them all!) and to know that so many BW are "awake and aware." Some one asked about our responsibility to our sisters who are still sleeping. The first duty, of course, is to protect ourselves and our daughters. But I can't help but think that if each of us keeps teaching and preaching, other lives will be saved!

Excellent work, Halima (as usual). Bravo!

Tracy said...

Hello All!!

I'm here late in the game, but I just had to address a couple of issues that stuck out for me.

First off, excellent post Halima! As a BW in my 40's, this was not new to me, but should be an eye-opener for the young-uns!

"i.e. the fact that a lot of BW DON'T get approached by WM, and its NOT the BW's faults)."

....okaay, I have heard this mantra year after year, and now that the John Mayer "scandal" has broken, it's rearing it's ugly head again.

My answer to your "fact" - unless you live in the middle of Klanman/skinheadville (and if you do, I suggest you move - NOW!)there will always be a wm who will approach you. If you are approachable. If you are even out there to approach.

I hear and see alot of bellyaching about how hard it is and what wm don't want - but I am out and about nite an day, in the thick of things and you know what I don't see? BLACK WOMEN!! Where are we?

We don't go to fairs or markets, national parks, museums, bookstores, plays, the symphony , hell even car races- places where single wm abound. Bold wm, that wait til your date leaves and strike up a convo with you! Young, old, short, tall, fat etc...they are out there waiting for you!

I remember going to National Park with a friend. While we weren't the only IR couple, I could count the number of bw that were there (7)....but, there were tons of Japanese, Indian, White, etc women out enjoying life. Quit hang dogging, get out of the box and be seen....they ARE waiting for you....

@Kat:
"I think bw need to realize that they are pretty much alone in this world and have to defend themselves(bw dont even defend each other)."

Ummm, no...

Kat, I came across a book at the local bookstore, and a passage has stuck in my mind - it applies to us both...

"The statute of limitations has expired on pretty much all of your childhood experiences..."

Let go, get help, give it to God, whatever...It's time to really LIVE WELL and move on. For if you don't, they win.

And to truly LIVE WELL, you must surround yourself with people (women and men alike) that have your best interest at heart. So, let go of all that is not good for your well being, and start to see a change.

Hope I havent gone too far off topic...

Karen, your book is on my must read list, after Khadija's!

Anonymous said...

You know this post is contraditory because your encouraging bw to date outside of their race and argue that the fact that they date other race doesn't mean they are denying their black heritage, culture e.t.c. Yet when bm do it we complain. Damn Right we do.
You know what i wanted to say the right things but my first reaction being Ghanaian and have so much respect for Kwame Nkrumah was disappointed. Nkrumah stood up not just for Ghana but Africa.
Nkrumah helped to liberate Africa unfortunately with the help of the CIA he was overthrown now his dead and gone African from Egypt to South Africa have respect for him and can see the big picture which he saw all along.
Now what upset me is to see at least 5 First African presidents marry white women, it's like why on why could they not show a united front with a woman from their nation. First ladies are role models and for a young black girl to see a black woman in that position is very inspiring. For example i absolutely love Michelle Obama she is a great role model for all women but especially black women and i know without a shadow of a doubt that black girls are being inspired by her. The fact that these men marry white women contradicts the whole Pan African thing because it's like black women are not good enough so they have to go out and collect a white women. So yes in this instance i am probably a hypocrite i don't know why only our black men can't keep their focus and see the bigger picture and instead follow their penis. It's really a shame nevertheless i don't believe in Gender wars don't date outside of your race because our men can't keep their dick in their pants. It's not tit 4 tat. Although i have followed the IR websites i am concerned about the black community as a whole and i wonsder the more we are against each the more it destroys the community. This is just a though maybe IR relationships are dividing us rather then unitying us.

cool_splash1 said...

I was recently on a radio program where the host (a BM) started quoting "Roots" to me as a justification for why he had issues with IRR. When I explained to him that "Roots" was a work of FICTION, that aimed to DRAMATIZE and tell an entertaining STORY, he had nothing to say because he knew he sounded like a fool!

And if he's going to quote Roots then he has to remember the white woman who also mistreated the black slaves. When I was younger I was shocked by that, because the image we've mostly seen of white women in movies with black people. But then I had to take into account that we were owned by them as well. They also see us as property so how will they treat us?

I mentioned this before at Interracial Black Woman, but there was a psychology experiment were students went to some prison or place (don't remember)and one group had the authority and the others were the prisoners and they were left alone. The experiment had to be stopped because they saw what happens when someone sees another person as being inferior or property. Absolute power over another person, brought an ugliness out of the people black and white and they weren't expecting that. I think something like this was also done for psychology classes or something and the same thing happened. One teacher whose wife is a psychologist even said that when she was younger she had to do something like this. I think one was an experiment where black people and other people of color were made slave owners or had some form of control over another person and the other group were the slaves etc. The black people and others of color were just as horrible as the white people who had control over someone. So black men need to get out of that the wm slave holder crap, because there were black slave holders.
http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm
http://www.issues-views.com/index.php/sect/1006/article/1091
http://iluvsa.blogspot.com/2009/04/black-slave-owners.html
She told us that the last she heard I think it was after she left they stopped experiments like that, because of the horrible acts subjected on other human beings. In other words, we all have the potential to show that type of ugliness no matter the race, gender, culture etc. There is no such thing as black people can't be racist, because of what happened to us as a people. Please! That's a crock of ish!

Black men go crazy about Mandigo and how the wm treated slaves etc., but the ww was just as bad. She got pregnant by a black man (which she basically forced to have sex with her), but you don't see them saying they won't get with ww because one raped his grandfather, greatgrandfather etc. or a grandfather, greatgrandfather etc. being lynched or many black men being lynched because a ww acused a bm of raping her. Or a woman who kills her child and then says she saw a black man take her kids or some ish. So black men seriously need to go somewhere with that ish.

Sorry for the rant.

cool_splash1 said...

The dynamics WM/BF relationships during slavery are far more varied than most realize.

Do you have any sources that I can look up. I've been searching the net, books etc., but it is difficult. I want to write a period BWIR story and I am looking for any information I can get.

You know this post is contraditory because your encouraging bw to date outside of their race and argue that the fact that they date other race doesn't mean they are denying their black heritage, culture e.t.c. Yet when bm do it we complain. Damn Right we do.

I don't think it's contradictory at all. Mainly because many women in all cultures tend to support their communities regardless of who they are with vs. men. Well at least with bm anyway, but it does go for other men. Just look at the rich bm who married an aw. What did she do when he died (because he didn't will any of that money, estate etc. to any of the women that helped him get there)she took that money to help her own country. Stop worrying about what grown ass men are doing and worry about yourself as well as the state of black women and girls. That should be your concern.

Although i have followed the IR websites i am concerned about the black community as a whole and i wonsder the more we are against each the more it destroys the community. This is just a though maybe IR relationships are dividing us rather then unitying us.
W

Why are you worrying about a non existent community. The black community doesn't exist. I am not worried about something that isn't there. Why focus on building a community and all that we need to unify ish when the freaking only ones that are going to be trying to unify will be black women. I have to say this and it will seem harsh, but get the hell over it and move the hell on. Because it's you who will be breaking your neck for black love and unity. It ain't gonna happen if the men don't want it. And please hon. IR has been going on for centuries. It's healthy. I don't by the crap about it dividing anything. If you want to stay waiting on bm and dry up preparing and waiting you do that, but please don't try to make us feel guilty for spreading a message that will help us to survive.

Khadija said...

Karyn L. Folan,

Thank you for your kind words and support; I truly appreciate it!

I'm the proud owner of the Kindle version of your book; and I've had the pleasure of hearing you do an amazing job of presenting MARRIAGE FREEDOM OF CHOICE for BW on another BW blogger's podcast radio show. {deep martial arts bow in salute}

I know you'll keep up the outstanding work that you're doing!

Peace, blessings and solidarity.

MICHAEL said...

As a Black man I wasn't aware there was a taboo about interracial dating for black women. The fact of the matter is that from my own small circle of black female friends I would venture to say that over 70 percent have dated white or arab men. As a race our rainbow hue of colors suggest their was some racial intermingling afoot even in the days of Jim Crow and I would venture to say that this consisting of mostly black women and white men . What I am saying is, life is short and if you find someone that makes you twinkle than be with them.

Anonymous said...

As a Caribbean Black woman I never understood the dying devotion American Black women have for men who don't appreciate them.
As for the person who commented about Caribbean Black women not happy with this movement,you are fool of bs. Caribbean women are not just Blacks so why would they care who Black American women date?
We don't have that hang up when it comes to dating,we were aways openly mixing.This is why you see someone like Garcelle Beauvais or Heater Headley,I think I have her name right,are both married to White men.
In Jamiaca you will find plenty of Black women with Asian men,such as in Trinidad and Tobago.
While America is the melting pot but people are somewhat still segregated mentally.
I have never hear the women in my family complaining about not finding a good man or waiting for a good Black man.I hear this mostly from American Black women.
Majority of men/women in family are married to Black,White,etc......

The only group of men my father told to stay away from are American Black men because of what he sees on tv as their culture.He think that most are lazy and not responsible.Well of course we know you can find that in any group.

I have many White male friends who appreciate Black women.Well unfortunately Americans don't realized that just because we have the same skin, it doesn't mean that we always share the same culture.Meaning that some of these White American men think all Black women are the same.
I do think some are learning it's the American women who are mainly waiting for a good Black man,therefore not giving non-Black men a chance.


I had to explained to them foreign Black women,/ non-Black American women are open to date White men,etc...We also don't have the hang up about how the White man raped us in the past.
We don't hold so much anger to the point where it is affecting us.

Caribbean women have no problem meeting men,so there's no jealousy on our part.
Hey many White European men travel to the Caribbean to meet women,some marry these women and moved back to Europe with them.
Hey even Black American men are traveling to the Caribbean but unfortunately some Caribbeans don't have a good view towards American Blacks.

So they will accept the White man in their family faster,sad but it's true.I think it's more about culture.

Two of my female cousins did married American Black men.
I'm not saying that all Caribbean people have family values but some of us do.
The men in our family did provide for their family even if they had to work 2-3 jobs,lol.I know In Living color used to make fun at us Caribbeans for that.

Anyway one of them couldn't keep a job and he lied to my cousin about alot of things in regard to his family. She tried so hard to make the marriage work but he couldn't handle the responsibility.He took care of his car more than he did for his family.

Now she is a single mother with 3 kids and our family look down on her.
She's lucky that she has supportive family who are helping her,otherwise she would have been in alot of trouble.

I think that American Black women should keep their options open.

Hep Pep,from that group is dating an Asian man and I think he's a doctor as well.

excuse my English it's my third language.

aao said...

"I'm Nigerian-American and have spent equal parts of my life in both places. One thing I learned at an early age growing up back home is that women have to look out for their own BEST interest FIRST and have STRONG BOUNDARIES.

For whatever reason, African woman across the whole diaspora are conditioned/taught to GIVE GIVE GIVE and GIVE w/o expecting nothing or little in return."

PREACH!!!

Koluki said...

Great post!
Thank you for the vision.
I've echoed it on my blog and added a couple of current day cases...

All the best!

Anonymous said...

sorry, but kwame nkrumah's wife was not white at all. she was a 100% pure egyptian coptic woman, an african. she would be no different than light-skinned black women in the U.S. or brazil, etc.

so two africans from different copuntries married each other - one dark, one light (and not like south african light, i.e. white).

Fathia Nkrumah's all African.

I think someone maybe misguiding you on someof your facts.

Anonymous said...

i hear what you all are saying, but i gotta correct you on kwame nkrumah. his wife fathia was 100% african - an egyptian coptic. not white.many pure africans, like coptics or moroccan berbers are light skinned africans. not to be confused with arabs, who are mixed with african, but not total africans like coptics.

Anonymous said...

oh well, then i see your point. although an egyptian coptic, its their preference to not be too african looking, or darker skinned. true, good point.

Anonymous said...

okkk...but i gotta take issue with frederick douglass being added (in a comment, not the post). frederick douglas was married to his firts wife, a dark-skinned black woman, for over 40 years before she died. then, only once he was a very old man, did her= marry a white woman. for who knows what reason, but i don't think frederick douglas can really be included here.

maria cummings said...

Wow what a great post! This post has confirmed my suspicion of bm. I have always believed that bm hate bw and they hate their own children. If a man loves his woman and his kids he will not abandon them. I also agree that bm do not love themselves, which is why I no longer date bm because I will not date someone who doesn't love himself. How can bm expect to be loved if they don't love themselves?? As for the bw who are loyal to these self hating bm to a fault, they are foolish to think that their loyalty will someday be rewarded with love from bm. I cannot stress this enough to my bw friends who continue to have relationship with these men and bare their kids.
Like I said, black men hate black women. They will never love us or protect us. Nor will they jump to our defense when someone has wronged us.

HomeschoolNewbe said...

You are awesome. That is all.

Sweeny Jackson said...

All I can say is O...M...G!!!! I'm totally speechless. Thanks for this article. You learn something new every day.