Thursday, June 03, 2010

A few Thoughts to mull over (Update)

Its shapping up to be a very busy summer and I might be taking extended breaks however before all that I have a few thoughts to share

Asian Man's Perspective of how BW continue to not get it!


A well known Misogynist being touted as the latest 'black love guru'
In the UK, there is a new black love guru who is helping black women find that elusive black man. He will remain nameless, but I remember once being in a meeting where he was in attendance and where he stood up to make a statement that was very revealing of the 'deep well', of disdain he has for the client group he is selling to, and that is black women.

He said something to the effect of, 'Black women used to play hard to get and make black men work and now they were being paid back in their own coin.' He was cut off before he could round off his point but this was essentially what he said! I recently opened up a black publication to see him touted as the next black John Gray. Once again I was reminded how it is that black women have lost the ability to discern, and pick up when there is malicious intent being directed towards them because they filter eveything through, 'black people/man can only come from a positive place' lets recieve/embrace/open ourselves to whatever he has.

Anyway there was something else that stood out to me from his statement. I realize that black men are using their now strong bargaining position re black women to renegotiate all the long laid down dynamics and norms that have stabilized society over thousands of years.

Indeed most societies have taken great pains in ensuring that men pursue their activities in ways that largely lends to the advancement of their communities (anything from manhood rites to virginity in women can be seen to link into preserving family structure). Here we have a situation however where a group of men are now in a position to be able to say, 'We no longer want to follow these constraints but operate 'runaway manhood' i.e manhood at their total discretion, and they are able to successfully have their way to the extent that they are offering very little to the women and the community they lean so much on .

His whole statement stayed with me and stayed in that 'filed to mull over' place because i felt it was revealing of something deep in terms of a shift in attitudes. Indeed, it is normal in every culture I know of, for men to chase women, and for men to win over women and for women, to make men work for their affection or play hard to get in other words. But here was this 'Love Guru' trying to make black women feel guilty for what is a normal practice. But this isnt an isolated case, as I too have had the experience of being chided for not declaring a full and utter attraction to a certain black man in the past.

The thing here however is that when black women accept the renegotiated terms, it ends up messing up the dynamics between the black genders so bad that even these men become 'unsatisfied' with the resulting situation, making it a no win situation for black women who decide to 'adjust' to the demands.

Very few men cherish and maintain an interest in women that drop into their laps even as they readily take up all and every easy option presented. Usually, watchful elders, who can see more long term, advice the women against catering to men in this potentially disasterous way, but because in the black community, black men are viewed as 'not liable to respond as men would generally do' (even as they continue to clearly do just that) but would respond to the situation as 'brothas' would (read: benevolently), black elders are likely to be the ones championing the idea of black women 'adjusting' to the demands!

The messed up dynamics that currently exists in the black dating arena is one key reason why BWE/IR writers urge black women to seriously prospect beyond the black dating sector.

Gain insight into the relationship reality facing black women today, and find out more about the Interracial Option, read the IR E-book


Questions to be sent to: relationshipadvice@dateawhiteguybook.com

48 comments:

Anonymous said...

I can't believe these men are mad at black women to play 'hard to get'. Most woman need to test the guy to see if he's good father material. It just seem that black women according to these guys are like slave women in the old days and these 'brothas' that you speak of are like the old crackers from the south.

Anonymous said...

Another thing, listen to Evia and vET all men--some of these white guys are starting to act the same way This is what happens when women start to get too 'independent'. Some women need to be near their daddies or other males in the family that loves and protects them (even if they have rank in the military) until they get married

Anonymous said...

halima
Black men on a global scale are not relevant to the equation. Other race men feed black men. So don't spend any time giving them play.

Skypurple15 said...

And this is why we have to re-teach many bw the art of flirting, the art seduction, the art of waiting. It is gone out the window for many. I highly suggest watching seasons 1 & 2 of tough love on vh1. That show is helpful and recommended the show to my friends. They loved it and learn so much!

I would most definetly ignore men like him. Men like him want women to lower their standards so that they can get an easy lay. It is not about commitment for many of them. If it was they would be willing to wait as well.

Trace Harris said...

Make no mistake, these fools out here want to be courted! One guy I knew (past tense) even bragged about his 'friends who happended to be women' for the possibility of sex and how his ex took him to dinner AND gave him flowers!

Karen r said...

I am not sure what came first, AA women lowering their standards to accomodate black men or AA men lowering the bar on their behaviors. You are right in that the tables have indeed turned. It seems that AA men expect to be courted and pursued and I see this across all socio-economic classes in the black "community." The basic premise is that AA men want the rights and priviledges of sex before marriage, pseudo commitment, fathering children, without shouldering ANY responsibilities. I don't see this happening among any other group of people. No other group has a 70% out of wedlock child birth rate!! And who is raising these out of wedlock children? AA women are raising them of course without resources and without the protection of marriage which in part explains the recent study that shows that the average level of wealth for AA women is $5.

AA women need to be shrewd and wise up to the game that is being played. Our lives and financial futures depend on it.

Bellydancer said...

I have heard this recently too said of black women should not play too hard to get by various bloggers and on youtube of course because it is claimed that we (bw) have no other options but bm.
This is just an excuse for ladies not to vet the men they are trying to date.
These men do not want you to know about their various baby mamas, money problems, criminal records, mental stability and such.
They think they are being slick trying to rush you into their traps especially if you have your act together.
They (bm) do not want you to benefit a decent man so they play games to make you think you are crazy calling you picky, stuck up and accusing you of playing hard to get.
As far as John Gray is concerned, he is a fraud all of his so called degrees came from diploma mills and are not worth nothing maybe that love guru needs to pick somebody else to emulate.
Check out this link which disproves his so called expertise.

The naked truth about John Gray
http://www.rickross.com/reference/gray/gray2.html

Bellydancer said...

Every other race of women and men understand that men do like a challenge and usually do not pursue women after they have had them. It lowers a woman's stock if she has been soiled ie.. out of wedlock pregnancy, promiscuity, acting lascivious etc..The art of being feminie website has an article that deals with "playing hard to get" see excerpts here:

As you can see, being 'hard to get' is SMART!
A woman who's a little 'difficult' and can resist a man, who willingly creates some distance (without actually going anywhere,) builds far more intrigue in a man and gives him a lot more pleasure - than a woman who does the chasing and who practically yields to him all at once!
Do this right, and you can cause a man to voluntarily want to give you the world, as well as COMMIT to you (while always getting to keep your pride and dignity intact.)
Did you know that a 'high-status' and hard to get woman naturally becomes a coveted object of desire to men - and is perceived as being 'expensive' - or valuable.
http://theartofbeingfeminine.blogspot.com/2009/01/feminine-art-of-being-challenge-and.html

CW said...

Three words Halima:

Loss Of Control

It'S a quiet but noticable desperation eminating from certain factions...The paradigm is shifting, and those who have benefitted from "skating by" ...Hence the comments about BW not playing hard to get...

@Anonymous

"Black men on a global scale are not relevant to the equation. Other race men feed black men. So don't spend any time giving them play...."

That's one of the problems...We've been feeding a lot of them too : |

BW Doing too much (And not all but still TOO MANY), instead of stepping back and letting a man do a man's work...

@SkyPurple


"And this is why we have to re-teach many bw the art of flirting, the art seduction, the art of waiting. It is gone out the window for many......"

I have notice a few BWE bloggers (including myself) trying to cover this...ANYTHING -just about, to get a leg up!

Anonymous said...

I had a girlfriend invite me to an afterwork all black affair. She knows not to invite me anymore because I did not even respond to her. Also, regarding black men chasing black women. I was watching a doctor show which is a spin off of Grey's Academy. I cannot remember the name of the show but there is this white female doctor who Taye Diggs is pursuing. One thing that I distinctly remember during one episode she said to Taye " I am a good catch and if you want me...you will have to chase me". Now I did not blame the woman. Of course he said that he would.

NijaG said...

As a non-AA black, I decided a while ago that if I didn't marry from my Home Country then it was most likely going to be a white American. I don't rule out AA men if they are Quality, but they're really not on my radar as such.

The AA men that are considered "good catches" are so aware of the value given to them in the AA community that it hard to find one who doesn't take advantage of this fact in some form or the other, especially when they deal and interact with AA women.

Khadija said...

Halima,

You said, "Once again I was reminded how it is that black women have lost the ability to discern, and pick up when there is malicious intent being directed towards them because they filter eveything through, 'black people/man can only come from a positive place' lets recieve/embrace/open ourselves to whatever he has."

I've lost all patience with this type of willful stupidity on the part of too many BW. BM who hate BW are not subtle about it. Their hatred of BW oozes from their pores. That hateful vibe is also quite obvious in their statements.

Women who are idiotic enough to take advice from men who have already shown that they HATE them are beyond salvaging.

Even while I was in my prior Black Nationalist trance, once I discovered that any particular BM activist hated and/or mistreated and/or beat BW (Kwame Toure, Maulana Karenga, and so on), I was through with them. Period. The same with any other BM public figure.

Expect Success!

NijaG said...

I read that article and it brought a few things in mind. My limited understanding of East Asian culture from the few I've met and interacted with is that the burden of passing on and upholding cultural and traditional teachings seems more on the man than the woman.

This is not the case in majority of the other ethnic groups. At most you have a 50/50 sharing like you see in most Western societies.

However in the Black community (US and the diaspora), the onus is more on the women passing down majority of the teachings to the next generation. Which is a system that never truly flourishes

So it's really not surprising that whichever gendered group is held more accountable for the next generation have more restrictions placed on them.

The same way black men kind of take for granted the loyalties of black women to the group (especially in the US), is similar to how East Asian women here in the states do the same thing.

Already we've seen the strong negative reactions & responses by BM wherever BW-IR topics come up. It's going to get worse as the trend slowing continues. If East Asian men started doing the same thing, you'll see their women having issues with it also.

Oshun said...

"I’d be standing there, talking to either a black woman or a group of black women, when all of a sudden, a black man would come into view. Most of the black men in this group are older and successful, and the minute a black man appeared, I would completely disappear in the eyes of any black woman with whom I was having a conversation. It would be like:

Byron: So what I was saying, Beth, is that we really need to increase minority homeownership because I think…

Beth: Okay, nice talking to you. [turns away from me to face the black guy] Hey! Excuse me! I don’t think we’ve met. My name is Beth, and I own my own company. I haven’t seen you around here.

Black guy: My name is Frank.

Susan: Uh, I don’t think we’ve met either. Excuse me, Beth. Hi Frank, I’m Susan. So what do you do, Frank?

Mary: And I’m Mary. So nice to meet you!

Byron: And uh…I’m By…

Frank: So what’s good about Portland, ladies?

All the women: So we’ve got a transplant! Let us tell you about this city.

This happened over and over and over, almost every time I attended. I think that like me, most of these black guys were married (many relocated with their families), but their presence in a roomful of black women negated the presence of all other people. I had another Asian guy friend who attended with me, and he said that he had the exact same experience. Once one of these black guys walked in, any African American woman in my presence would immediately drop what she was doing, gently scoot me out of the way, and start chatting up the black guy. From a business perspective, it made no sense for me to be there. "


Leaving someone hanging/abruptly cutting someone short in the middle of a convo is rude no matter how tactfully you think you're doing it.

This is so bizarre. The BM were married and they still chatted them up!

On top of that they shot themselves in the foot around networking with others who could probably actually help them propel their businesses forward.

Skypurple15 said...

Hamila I have to say your post on not lowering our standards came just in time! I'm not going to name names...but apparently there's a rapper who is literally begging black women to lower their standards because his 1/2 white gf can cook, clen, and does whatever he says.

I'm thinkin you got what you wanted, now why the hell are you talkin got bw??? If i were currrently dating someone, i wouldn't go back to my ex and tell him how he should have done this/that/other...i wouldn't even be thinkin about him.


Black women keep your standards up high, then again these are bm begging for women to lower their standards so that they can easily sex you and abuse you.They can't compete in the world of men who actually work and set high standards for themselves, so they try to compete w/ women because it's "easier". How pathetic.

Oshun said...

You are right Skypurple.

You are right. I used to wonder why everytime BW would get together and talk about our situations a married BM (whether to a WW or otherwise) would jump in. I was always thinking you are married...why are you here??!

I have never seen/heard of married men from other groups jumping into conversations of womenfolk before. This is just crazy to me. I don't go to men's discussions/websites and jump into/dictate conversations.

I have come to the conclusion that this is an extension of the misogyny that runs rampant in the BC. BM are not only the new KKK, but the new slave masters and Taliban rolled into one.

They want to control and oppress BW at all costs. BW have deluded these men into thinking they are so desired thus they feel their input/presence is wanted and relevant. And as other bloggers have stated, they also know that there is a surplus of women and want to keep it that way. Why else would married men so blatantly get into conversations among single women?

I think there is something so evil inside BM. What sane group of men actively advocates for their women to be used and abused? How depraved and lowlife can you be?

bigWOWO said...

Thanks for the link, Halima!

You've got an awesome blog. I love how you encourage women to keep high standards, and I love how you take an intellectual approach to the problems women may face (double standards, problems with White feminist theory, etc.) Good people deserve the most out of life. Keep fighting the good fight!

Skypurple15 said...

"I have never seen/heard of married men from other groups jumping into conversations of womenfolk before. This is just crazy to me. I don't go to men's discussions/websites and jump into/dictate conversations."


Exactly. But it just comes to show that once again they really don't know how to be a man. They allowed themselves into any conversation without realizing which conversation of which group of people you should be joining in. I myself wouldn't be caught dead in a man's conversation because it will always come from a man's perspective. My father wouldn't be caught dead sitting down with a group of women, about women's problems unless it was in regards to me. Other than that, it's not his problem.

It just comes to show that a lot of these guys are really just women on steroids. One of many reasons why I am finding myself throwing them out of my pool of options altogether.

After that incident with the rapper yesterday,I was looking closely to see who was going to come to bw's defense, and not one word from the majority of the bm. Yet these poetry driven bm who talk about queen this nubian that didn't say a word when she was attacked. Some (not surprised) even agreed with the rapper, but my guess and good as many is that these dudes are single themselves. Only women with low-self esteem will put up with that. And of course this rapper like so many never once mentioned what he was brining to the table...my guess his d**k.

Anonymous said...

SkyPurple, I know who you're talking about.

I read the responses on a Hip Hop website and it was the usual 'you gotta build up a brotha' bullsh*t. Can you imagine? Are these 'brothas' looking to build us up? *Crickets*

So many Black men STAY losing in society. And instead of doing something about it and becoming REAL threats to other men, they rally together to diss BW instead.

When I read that creature's article, all I could think was "I want to treat you like sh*t and have you lap it up". That's what alot of these 'brothas' want.

They don't want to nurture, support and love us. They want to use us as their personal lapdogs and slaves.

They never got to crack the whip on us during slavery, so they're trying to do it now and take the place of the WM overseers (from back then) that they ENVY.

Yes, I said ENVY!!! Many BM want to control us, own us and use us as they please. They want that power.

Many BM are White supremacists with dark skin.

Anonymous said...

its true that other race men like a challenge and dont mind their women being 'hard to get' but im a black woman as well and my white stepdaughters do not know how to play hard to get; there very pretty for white girls also. they get some of the trashiest white guys they could find because the 'nice guys' are too boring for them..I think the sistas have this problem in the extreme though---70% of OOW births and 35-40% of abortions WHAT ARE WE DOING!!!?!? THATS 110%

Anonymous said...

no wonder there are no more lovesongs anymore--especially for black women---we women 'threw ourselves away' thinking that if we could make money like men, we could 'court' like them...my daughter thinks she wont get married (even though she never had a boyfriend before) there could be hope if we start getting involved with hobbies that are sporty and not sleep with a man unless were married and have him checked for STDs before the wedding day

Aabaakawad said...

Here's a ray of hope though: Three BM who clearly get it and actively advocate for BW. Two academics and a community activist. Each of them has presented important blog posts on BM privilege. Especially relevant are these three posts:

The Black Male Privileges Checklist, by Jewel Woods

Yes Virginia, There is Black Male Privilege, by L’Heureux Dumi Lewis

An Answer to Black Male Privilege, by Dr. Lester K. Spence

And then there is my essay, but I am not Black:

Do BM feel entitled sex w/o commitment? A critical examination of BM privilege

Halima said...

Hi BigWOWO and thanks for stopping by.

You really called it in that article! I felt bw would do well to see how their actions were being viewed by others/third parties.

I was at a conference today and black women were behaving just like you described it, maybe not as extreme but the dynamic was present. It was the whole, 'if it isnt a black man, i am not networking/mingling, I am not smiling, I am not 'perking up', i am not putting myself into the interraction etc etc, in fact i will give terse monosyllabic responses, but if a black man is around i will go up and engage, i will be animated and really put myself into what we are saying' type stuff going on.

let me tell you that everyone notices it now and they not only avoid drawing out black women in conversation, black men just love it and reinforce the isolationist posture of black women by reminding them of the big bad wolf outside. they do do all they can to keep bw in the mindframe because clearly it keeps black women at their disposal. simple!

Halima said...

Aabaakawad

you put so much effort into defending black men. is it because you just want to have faith in humanity or your just a big liberal at heart (lol!)

Its just something I seem to have picked up from a number of your responses, but then again I can be all kinds of wrong on this.

The reason why I ask this is because many liberals do not understand that trying to defend black men and find 'goodness' in black men (as they practice it not the theory of it which is honorable) simply translates into adding their weight to the oppression and silencing of black women. It is not that this is intended but it just works out that way (just like walking in a straight line takes you ROUND the earth).

I wouldnt mind a guest post from you around this topic if you are open to it.

Aabaakawad said...

Halima,

I am not afraid of complexity or nuance. Don't mistake my pointing out a few potential BM allies as a general defense of BM behavior. I simply don't think identity has to always be destiny. They call that prejudging. I'll do a guest post if you read those four essays.

--- Aaby

Anonymous said...

no wonder there are no more lovesongs anymore--especially for black women---



~~~

OMG I thought I was the only one who noticed the lack of love songs by black women. If "black love" was "so magical", "so sacred" and "so great" wouldn't most black women be singing love songs? Instead of the "you did me wrong" and "why dont you love/marry me?" type songs. Very telling IMO......

Pamela said...

The main issue is not whether bm like us or not. The issue is getting bw to think about themselves for a change with no outside influences when possible. The fact that a lot of bw care about what those bm that obviously hate bw think IS THE problem. It is bad for any person to obsess over anyone that hates them for no good reason. The problem for bw is that tendency is causing a lot of destruction in all areas of the lives of many.

Although it is nice that some bm do not hate us for the discourse with bw it is irrelavent. The only concern for bw in the context of empowerment is for bw to decide what is best for them and take steps to make that happen. When it comes to romance bw need to find that lone soul where there is chemistry regardless of race. What other men think is again irrelavent. Before I married in December I did not care one bit about the men not interested in me, especially those that were haters. Who wants to have a romance with someone that does not want them? The mindset of many bw needs to change about how they think about themselves. Input from good sources can be helpful but in the end the mental unraveling has to be done by the woman herself regardless of who loves or hates them.

Aimee said...

Pamela said...
"The main issue is not whether bm like us or not. The issue is getting bw to think about themselves for a change with no outside influences when possible."

So right! Congratulations on your marriage!

Halima said...

Aimee

is that you!

Where you been woman?

Marisol said...

What I do not understand is this constant talking about black men.
I think by now, those black women who read the BWE blogs understand.

All black women have to do now is get the monkey(black man) off their backs.
Women who date interracially do not spend their time talking about men of their racial groups.

This constant talking about black men is a sign that black women are not ready to divest.

The author of the blog blackwomenblowthetumpet mentions steps toward Divestment and Dismantling is one .
I do not believe that black women will be able to divest before first dismantling all the cobwebs of worrying about what black men think and do.
Also black women becoming solely attentive to black men in a social gathering among different men is another sign that many black women are just not ready.
I believe thare is a symbiotic relationship between many black women and black men.
Black women seemed to prefer low black men so they can feel superior to black men and black men appear to go for low non-black women because this make them feel superior to black women.
Most non-blacks have already figured black men and women long time, the only clueless are black people.

Halima said...

No marisol the reason whu we keep on about these issues is because we do not like to pull the ladder up after ourselves, we know there are black women who still need to hear this message or maybe you think we should close all kindergarten schools simply because you have graduated!

E said...

A Anon

I think black women sing love songs ALL the time. I never hear any sung to us though. Rap and R&B songs now are just terrible, all about "beating up the p***y" and "Daddy's home" which I find gross and distasteful. In the lyrics bm display their colorism and straight hair obsessions, too. I can't even listen to most anymore and I'm only 27.

The only black men I can stand to listen to are John Legend and Maxwell and they put the rainbow in their videos. I haven't known either to bash black women, but even Legend's lyrics get a little dicey. In "I Can Change" he features Snoop Dogg and sings "My heart ain't got nothin' to do with me penis." What???

The only R&B singer I see who features bw in his videos now is Robin Thicke. He's had his wife and Jessica White in his videos.
Jon B in the 90s did this, too. Even as girl, I could tell that Jon B probably liked black girls and those 'brothas' he has up in his video were probably just trying to get to Jon's white sisters and cousins.

Black women, it's just SO obvious now. Please be aware. We can only find love with those open to us. Those who hate us, of any color, can kick rocks.

Khadija said...

Pamela,

I 100% co-sign!
__________________________________

Marisol,

As much as I would prefer to NOT mention BM (damaged or otherwise) at all, I agree with Halima's response to your comment. Those BW who have been around the BWE blogs for a while know what time it is...but there are plenty of BW who have just recently found out about the BWE message. And there are new BW showing up everyday. It's important that we leave "the kindergartens" (introductory messages) open for their benefit.

Expect Success!

Aimee said...

Halima said...

Aimee

is that you!

Where you been woman?
___________________________________

It's me. You don't even want to know what I've been dealing with--but family and the love of a good man can get you through anything! I see you're still holding it down like a champ (not that I expected anything less).

A~ion said...

Halimah,

Greetings! I just wanted to say that this is really sad to read, even though I've heard these sorts of excuses. Playing hard to get for NORMAL competitive men arouses passion for the woman, normal men compete in order to conquer women in the face of male competitors. They actually find the pursuit of women erotic and stimulating. Black men (the gamma's of the galaxy) cannot compete normally, and patriarchy allows men to project their inherent flaws onto women.

REAL LIFE HISTORY:
1. The longer a woman withholds sex, the more a man is encouraged to chase her. 2. The more effective her coquetry the more her worth grows. 3. The more feminine she is, the more she inspires men to protect her. 4. The more pursuers a woman has, the more a man views her as valuable. 5. The more other men want her that she HAS NOT had sex with, the more a man spends time being "the one" to conquer her and have sex with her. 6. Man gets pride and power from providing for his wife. 7. Woman who gives in to easily to man's pursuit stops his passion for her from growing.

These have all been the case for thousands of years. Whether we like it or not.

Black men simply cannot compete normally with other men over conquering women, so they want to reverse human history.

BM married, settled down, worked etc., in the 1940s and 50s during the height of Jim Cow in the South. This time was closer to slavery so the whole "reversal of gender roles as a result of slavery" cannot possibly apply when our great grandparents/grandparents were more likely to come from a hardworking grandfather who stayed with our grandmothers.

There were also very few male virgins at 45 in the 50s because men married young so they could have sex. Now men gladly get married at 45 because they can get sex without marriage. On a societal scale sexual liberation movement= marriage plummeted, men stopped chasing, men became more cowardly about the chase, and so forth. Men lose the incentive to marry/court when privilege/sex is allotted to them beforehand.


I say all this to say that I'm a HUGE follower of http://www.wwnh.wordpress.com (he literally writes a post everyday and has been about this issue). It's about restoring the female dominance we lost because of mens access to sex. I strongly suggest most women go through the "contents" tab on that blog and take notes. I have.

Although sex is a BIG PART of male identity, manhood is as well. A man wasn't simply considered a man unless he was married/provided for his family in the black community in the 50s. Therefore sex was the reward for manhood, providing, marriage, etc., not for having a penis. Black women gave up too much, and we're seeing this proof everyday that men DO NOT respect women who give more. In fact, it thwarts their ability to become men.


The "fear of commitment" which is code for "I have convenient access to sex without proving myself a worthy MAN who deserves it, here's my excuse..." is almost a societal norm now. Do you think a 40yr old male virgin who was considered "suspicious" by his peers in the 50s could/would list "fear of commitment" as his reason for avoiding manhood? Hetero women lost FAR more from the sexual liberation/feminist movement than men did.

It's simple. Black men today have sex and violence to connect them to manhood opposed to marriage and providing for family, because they do not have to work for sex anymore. I read the blog I provided, not ranting and ravings of these bitter lunatics anymore.

Sorry for the tangent. XOXO.

Halima said...

Thanks all for your comments, i am not able to reply to all but each comments helps at clarity to the work we are doing!

Halima said...

Aimee

I am just so thankful that you are fighting through because victory is near.

I almost kicked myself the last time i missed your comments. I am sure you got all my frantic emails and posts lol!

I know you are not religious but I am sending vibes of blessing and healing your way! Stay strong.

arthur said...

Aimee. A great pleasure to see you on-line again. Hope you can find the time to post again, now and then, as time permits.

Anonymous said...

Halima,

Sometime ago you wrote about the whole "OK Cupid" fiasco and online-dating for black women. Could you post that link again, I'd like to re-read that excellent essay.

C said...

As usual a thought provoking post and commentary.

One myth though I'd like to dispel though is the notion that sexual liberation meant black women lost some kind of power in relationships, which came up in a few comments.

While it sounds like a good rally cry, there is a more sound argument that is backed up by data and thus can also be applied to (and thus validated) different cultures where sexual liberation came later for example.

And that theory is that the loss female bargaining power in relationships in the black community is due to the gender imbalance, which is in direct relationship with socio-economic disadvantages that plague many black communities.

This one factor can explain the 70% out of wedlock rates, the fewer marriages and the increased rates of sexually transmitted diseases (via CDC).

Before you poo-poo the numbers, consider this:

In the game theory model of dating and marriage (Tim Harford), for 100 people looking for a partner it only takes an imbalance of 1 person of either gender to cause that group to lose bargaining power in finding/keeping a mate.

What does bargaining power mean? Well, socially and biologically men are drivers of sexual promiscuity not women. (Any book, socio-biology, evolutionary psych, anthropology will tell us this).

Thus, when women are faced with the choice of no partner or essentially sharing a partner, some will choose to share a partner which leads to more promiscuity in the community--essentially net social polygyny (1 male with multiple female partners either concurrently or serially).

And incidentally this arrangement (as opposed to the reverse or to a monogamous union) to is the most efficient driver of high birth rates.

We as women need to stop perpetuating the mythology of the pathological black women who have lowered their standards. In reality, child-bearing women are making rational decisions based on the shortages of male peers in their communities and suffering because of it (struggling with single parenthood, highest HIV rates, higher rates of domestic abuse).

The so-called traditional days never existed for menfolk. For the skeptical there are sex surveys to be found online detailing the fact that men's sexual behaviors---from cheating to age of 1st intercourse---actually have little to do with how oppressed women are. Men have seemed to have always gotten sex because of the widespread nature of prostitution and the power of men to go outside their "traditional" communities for sex partners (either via travel, migration, etc).

So in conclusion, please ladies, stop beating up our sisters for "bad choices". The best thing we can do is help our women become financially savvy, educated and to seek out mates outside the black community where the numbers won't matter since black females are such a small minority compared to the total number of men in the country.

Thank you for your time. Pace e amore.

CS1 said...

I think black women sing love songs ALL the time. I never hear any sung to us though. Rap and R&B songs now are just terrible, all about "beating up the p***y" and "Daddy's home" which I find gross and distasteful. In the lyrics bm display their colorism and straight hair obsessions, too. I can't even listen to most anymore and I'm only 27."

You need to listen to a black owned (mostly soul) music station even with some new R &B and believe me your perception on that will change.


"And that theory is that the loss female bargaining power in relationships in the black community is due to the gender imbalance, which is in direct relationship with socio-economic disadvantages that plague many black communities."

There are gender imbalances in many communities, but yet the women don't lower their standards. They just include those in the global village.

"We as women need to stop perpetuating the mythology of the pathological black women who have lowered their standards. In reality, child-bearing women are making rational decisions based on the shortages of male peers in their communities and suffering because of it (struggling with single parenthood, highest HIV rates, higher rates of domestic abuse)."

If it's logical then we wouldn't have a high OOW rate and HIV. Common sense tells you if your grandmother, mom, aunt, sister, cousin and other women around you or that you later met are single with children and struggling then that's a clue to what you need to do to not be in that situation. Now yes some are going to be because even though they are married the father died, left, or something else they couldn't control, but women can control who we sleep with.

Anonymous said...

"The best thing we can do is help our women become financially savvy, educated and to seek out mates outside the black community where the numbers won't matter since black females are such a small minority compared to the total number of men in the country."

RIGHT. This is the solution right here in a nut shell.

Thank you for this statement C.

Khadija said...

C,

You said, "One myth though I'd like to dispel though is the notion that sexual liberation meant black women lost some kind of power in relationships, which came up in a few comments.

...And that theory is that the loss female bargaining power in relationships in the black community is due to the gender imbalance, which is in direct relationship with socio-economic disadvantages that plague many black communities."

I disagree. Our tradition of locating the source of ALL our problems outside of our own free-will-based choices is long-past played out.

The multiple causes of AA women's current crisis is not "either/or;" it's "both/and." Our collective personal choices interact with external factors to create the mess that we've been in for several decades. It's similar to how medications interact with each other and amplify the effects of each individual ingredient. Sometimes leading to accidental death. I believe a similar thing has happened with the AA collective.

You said, "We as women need to stop perpetuating the mythology of the pathological black women who have lowered their standards. In reality, child-bearing women are making rational decisions based on the shortages of male peers in their communities and suffering because of it (struggling with single parenthood, highest HIV rates, higher rates of domestic abuse)."

But those are NOT "rational" decisions. These BW aren't marooned on Gilligan's Island. Many of them go to work everyday where they are literally surrounded by men from other races and ethnic groups.

Some of these nonblack men have approached them, only to be ignored and rebuffed in favor of waiting for the chimerical "good BM." And later on---as a result of self-imposed desperation---choosing to "make do" with inferior situations with inferior BM.

You said, "So in conclusion, please ladies, stop beating up our sisters for "bad choices". The best thing we can do is help our women become financially savvy, educated and to seek out mates outside the black community where the numbers won't matter since black females are such a small minority compared to the total number of men in the country."

Oh, puh-leeze. There are a LOT of destructive AA women who are collaborating in creating the current crisis. They are doing this in their own personal lives. And they are preaching the same destructive behaviors to other BW.

I haven't forgotten about the many BW like Shahrazad Ali. Just look at all the BW who excuse and enable R.Kelly and Chris Brown. There are multitudes of less-known AA women who are consistently making anti-self and anti-BW choices in their lives. And aggressively preaching the same to other BW. [Advocating man-sharing, tolerance for domestic violence, etc.] These women don't get a pass.

Also, it's not like it's only uneducated, financially non-savvy AA women who are consistently making these destructive choices. There are plenty of educated, financially-savvy, professional AA women engaged in the same behaviors. They also don't get a pass.

Aimee said...

Halima and Arthur (and all in the BWE blogosphere) -- greetings and thanks! And prayers are always welcome.

C said...

Our tradition of locating the source of ALL our problems outside of our own free-will-based choices is long-past played out.

Nowhere did I say that black women are not acting on free will.

For example, we know that across most cultures, higher education correlates to delaying childbirth and fewer kids.

So in this example we see that social conditions have a direct effect on mating choices and expectations. That's all I'm bringing to the table here.

The implications of gender-ratio imbalances have been well documented as well as being part of the social landscape affect partnering choices.

It's a fact that all even when controlling for social status, fewer reproductive aged men in the community results in less marriage, more out-of-wedlock births and increased rates of STIs, including HIV. Of course blacks will be hit harder because of poverty and lack of access to health care.

There are a LOT of destructive AA women who are collaborating in creating the current crisis. They are doing this in their own personal lives. And they are preaching the same destructive behaviors to other BW.

You know, white folk say the exact same thing about black folk in general. "Those dumb negroes keep making stupid choices, digging their own graves, preaching bad values to each other through music and violent imagery." Yeah, lol. That's true too, but that's not the only truth.

I've listened to people black, white and brown talk about "pathological black culture" and the breakdown of the family and the shaky role of the church, etc. Can someone show me one lick of data that these are the predominating influences in black women's "poor choices". What if these influences are just a reaction to the gender dynamic set up as part of the racial caste system we've grown accustomed to?

Really how much "power" did your Grandma have? Both of mine had it pretty rough. Yeah, sure kids were born in wedlock but there was A LOT of violence, adultery and chaos in their and their children's lives growing up. Only thing missing was the crack, really.

If you really want to be shocked for example, check out the black intimate partner murder rates (DOJ) from circ 1970. It was sky high. Other groups were high as well, but black folk were truly off the charts. 1970s. This was supposedly back in the day before we had gone to shit and before women really started flexing their newly found freedoms.

Pace e amore.

XaiXai said...

Ahhhhh! Marisol, you're a breath of fresh air. I am soooo tired of the constant conversations about black men on BWE blogs. Enough already! I think black women had better work very hard on self definitions sans the opinions of, beliefs of, desires of, anger of, hatred of, viewpoints of, comparisons of, thoughts of, feelings of - all black men. We're not joined at their hips, we don't NEED them to be US. Our destinies don't depend on them. We as black women will never find OURSELVES THROUGH BLACK MEN!

Khadija said...

C,

This will be my last reply because much of this boils down to our VERY different world views. [Although, I will note that reading your comments has given me an idea for a series of posts for my own blog. Thanks! *Smile*]

Let me repeat: There are plenty of educated, financially savvy AA women who are engaged in making and promoting destructive choices such as oow childbearing and single parenting. A formal education does not automatically deprogram people from supporting and engaging in toxic cultural practices. The mantra-like citation of studies has very little to do with outer reality as lived among the AA collective.

I would suggest that more of us take a fresh look at the reality that surrounds us. As opposed to (sometimes blindly) putting our faith in the purported results of scientific studies. Something being printed up in a published study does not automatically mean that it is valid data. Being published does not convert an assertion into a "fact."

For example, see the 8/30/05 article in New Scientist by Kurt Kleiner, Most scientific papers are probably wrong.

You said, "I've listened to people black, white and brown talk about "pathological black culture" and the breakdown of the family and the shaky role of the church, etc. Can someone show me one lick of data that these are the predominating influences in black women's "poor choices". What if these influences are just a reaction to the gender dynamic set up as part of the racial caste system we've grown accustomed to?"

I don't know how one can measure whether an influence is "predominating" or not. My point is that AAs are not robots where externally-generated inputs automatically control AAs' outputs (behaviors).

There's no gun to these Black women's heads in these situations under discussion. They've been living in a 20-21st century, industrialized Western country. A country where there IS a totally free educational system (unlike most countries on the planet), and the realistic opportunity for economic mobility. Which is why millions of illegal aliens have run up into this country. They know these opportunities exist; why don't AAs?

AA women are not (and have not been for the past 50 years) in similar circumstances to the Arab, African, Afghan women who are often literally physically trapped in poverty and oppression in their 3rd world societies.

If AA women somehow "can't" make life-enhancing choices under the conditions that exist in the US, then I don't know where on this planet they can.

Anonymous said...

I know Sweden
that is where I am heading in two months