Monday, June 06, 2011

What counts as 'First Move'?

I came across a post about 'who makes the first move?'. I was wondering what your thoughts are on a bw making the first move with a wm. I must admit that I feel it is a risky venture for black women.


There are a couple of fears expressed by black women as to why they would prefer not to make the first move with white men. Firstly many black women subscribe to dating 'gender roles' of being 'pursued' as opposed to being the 'pursuer' and do believe that it is a loosing game plan to pursue a man who will then never 'pull his weight' in the relationship or respect her from then on even if he takes what she has to offer. However where black women would be happy to pursue in an in-race dating situation they get cold feet about trying out this protocol outside race.

One reason is that a white man coming across is a strong indicator that at least he is 'non racist', and has given some thoughts and even 'prepared' himself for what interracial dating might mean. Of course this is all 'ideal' thinking because many folks, 'dont even know they dont know' however when a black woman goes over first, she might go up to a man who might be holding her race against her (which is now increasingly the case with black men as well these day!), she might be going up to a man who hasnt prepared himself for interracial dating (which has its own social hurdles). Yes and unfortnately we do not date in a social vacuum, one two many stares and an unprepared white man who was at first blown away by a black woman's beauty etc might suddenly decide he just cant deal. 'I wasnt really convinced you came unto me remember,' is not exactly what a woman wants to hear!

The problem however is how black women define first move. Many black women are paralyzed at the thought of saying 'Hi' and think this is a ‘first move’. Starting a conversation? well thats all sorts of multiple first moves right there! lol

I pitch first move as you saying you are interested explicitly, and 'lets go on date' kind of thing, but thats me, so I would like readers to weight in here (male and female) and with scenerio examples if possible. Lets loosen some mental chains!

How would 'the first move' appear to you?


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48 comments:

Nana said...

I think the real first move is asking someone out on a date.

For online dating, I'd actually say it can be as much as sending someone a message. I used to message men first and I never got good results. One time I even messaged a guy with a simple "Hello" and he said, "So what brings you to me?" Of course I didn't respond, I was so insulted.

I like to feel secure knowing that he would have at least made the gesture to message me first if he had the opportunity.

If I'm out though, I have no problem starting a friendly conversation with a guy in the right social setting, or making eye contact. I'm not saying I will walk right up to him and introduce myself out of the blue (there needs to be some context) but I think overall there is nothing wrong with it.

Sunny said...

I agree Halima, I think saying his isn't a first move at all. Saying Hi or making eye contact will let the man know that yes, it's okay to speak to you and this creates the opportunity for him to make the first move (i.e. ask for your contact info. or ask you out).

If he doesn't bite, then nothing lost, you're just being your open and friendly self. If he does, then you scored all while being your open and friendly self.

socialitedreams said...

i liked this bloggers take on it: http://politicallyunapologetic.com/2011/05/rules-for-making-the-first-move/

Aisha said...

I think of making the "first move" as actually physically approaching someone to start a conversation, especially if you have already given him the "green light" of making eye contact and smiling. I'm open to new ways of thinking and look forward to the rest of this conversation.

HR Professional said...

I agree with Sunny. Something as passive as eye contact or saying hello is a way of making a first move. A more bold, however still passive way is to start a neutral conversation as Aisha said. Call me old fashioned, but I believe being passive is the best way to make a first move.

To me, a first move should be initiated by men because then you will save yourself from looking over enthusastic at best and desperate at worst.

Halima said...

Hi nana

yes first moves (however you define it) have their own risk.

i think some men are flattered to get a woman come unto them however from then on out the woman has to play a tight game of interest/disinterest, and 'i have so many other options of which you are just one', so that it doesnt get to the mans head too much lol!

i found there are some men who dont even know who made the first move online! once on a date a man said 'and when you approached me....', I knew i didnt approach him online for sure, however i gather that many african women on the site were contacting men vigorously lol!

Sunny, yes we all have to do our bit and leave the rest to God lol! and develop a tough skin while we are at it, so if they dont bite, we keep stepping to the next and next opportunity!

Socialite dreams i agree with the article but towards the end it did sound more definitely making a strong first move because it talks about handing a man 'your phone number' (no matter under what pretext!).

Halima said...

Aisha I think you raise an important point. If you have been giving the man the interest eye all evening then go up to him after a while, for sure he kind of knows you are making a move.

If he has been the one making the eyes at you or watching you etc and you go on up at some point (work your way round to him not dash up to him lol), then it might not be read as a first move but simple interest on which he could capitalize if he wants to.

i think the key thing here is how the other party 'inteprets' your action not how you (we bw) intepret it. Our actions might loom real large for us when it is just casual or nuetral to the other party.

Halima said...

I think bw could do with learning how to 'come on strong' and then move on to another man so men kind of know they have a 'window' to grab their opportunity before it is forever lost.

The other thing is that many wm might not have even thought about being with a bw that very morning lol!

I think there is a mental 'whirling'/processing time period with many white men which means there is often times a gap between interest and acting upon this interest. If it is the first time the idea of dating a bw has occured to him due to the presence of a good looking bw for instance, he may stop to weigh up 'the implications' or other things.

many of us will thus end up dating men who where brough to the idea of interracial dating at a point in the past (by another woman) when they missed the boat.

Halima said...

HR professional yes indeed I think we all have individual confort levels with this one.


I do know many bw however are not shy of making the move (not sure with wm though).

BWLivingWell said...

Hey Halima!

(sorry if there's any typos, I'm in a hurry)

"How would 'the first move' appear to you?"

I think the first move would be when the guy approaches you. I don't believe in women approaching men, especially when women give the excuses about a guy being "too shy". If he wants you, he will go after you.

Then we have to look at the woman and the vibes she is giving off.

If I'm in a cafe and I see a guy I like, I think she should try to make eye contact (I look at him, he looks at me, I look away for a couple seconds, then look back to see if he is still staring) and smile. I don't define that as "making the first move". I'm just giving the guy the "green light" to let him know I'm interested and he can approach me IF he is interested.

Another example of a "first move" to me would be if I'm already chatting with a guy and I want to go out with him, but I'm not sure if he knows I am interested in him.
I will not ask him out to dinner. I will talk about how there's a great band coming to town, or this new art gallery opened, or I talk about how I love XYZ restaurant and I've been meaning to go. The guys that are interested in you will use that as an opportunity to take you out to said place.

These are just my opinions. Has either of these "techniques" (lol) worked for anyone else?

Anonymous said...

well I'm a white guy and we are use to white girls usually and they always smile and talk or to me anyway and if smile and talking means they want to date me then 8/10 women has the hots for me lol... and on top of that there are some white women who like to play the flirt game until you ask them out then they'll shoot you down in front of their friends to make themselves seem too good for you so their friends will "look up" to them, luckily its never happen to me, but if a girl wants to date me there has to be more than a smile or eye contact so basically that might be a go-ahead for BW but most white guys don't know it, heck I'm even reading the comments of y'all saying it and still not sure on it, and alot of us especially me believes if a woman has the attitude and belief "i have so many options besides you" well then be my guest and go find them because if there are a whole lot more guys out there just like me then I'm pretty disposable and would end up as nothing to that person, so if you really like a guy why not make the first move most white guys wouldn't even have an idea you really liked them they would figure your just being friendly

Halima said...

I'm a white guy you seem very damaged by your dating experinces.

I have noticed that when white and other men have bad experinces with white women, they spread the blame around and it beomes 'women as a whole do xyz' and 'I am upset and angry with all women etc etc.'

when bw err however, they and they alone get to carry the can. Very sad but nothing unexpected since this is the way an unequal and unjust society operates.

moving on

maybe the question should be asked, 'what part do you yourself hope to play in all this'. it seems to me you just want to stand akimbo and let the women do it all.

you sound immature and entitled, so what else will you be requiring sir, will you be needing the women to help you with your zipper too or would you be able to manage that task? lol!

BWLivingWell said...

@ Halima

Yes Anon sounds VERY damaged.

I am very suspicious of men who claim more women should approach them and ask THEM out.

When I see/hear men like that in real life, I run (literally....ok maybe a fast walk) in the other direction.

This is what the kids call "damaged goods".

Anonymous said...

To anony. 6:45

What an ego you have. It sounds as if you are saying all ww or any other race of woman has to cater to you before you consider her date worthy? Unless you are some type of Brad Pitt you really need to check your ego at the door? I bet you left alot of women feeling miserable, but evemtually happy the relationship ended.

I have had wm make the first move on me, thank goodness.

I totally agree with... "I have noticed that when white and other men have bad experiences with white women, they spread the blame around and it beomes 'women as a whole do xyz' and 'I am upset and angry with all women etc etc.'

When bw err however, they and they alone get to carry the can."

THE ABOVE STATMENT IS VERY TRUE.

Ironically, Barbara Walters was just talking about the Stacey Anthony case and how an attractive and young ww will get more sympathy from the jury.
What about the lawyer who said his client an attractive, young ww was too pretty to go to jail. What? You guilty you go to jail.

l.

Lisa99 said...

Hi ladies. Glad you all could see through "I'm a white guy." I agree with all of you... when a man says that a woman should approach him and ask him out, that tells me some rather unsavory things about his character. He can be white, he can be black, I don't care... either way, he probably is not the type of man you want.

Notice, most of the men who strongly suggest (or even expect) this are typically single... which makes me wonder why exactly their word should be taken seriously.


Anyway, I agree that the first move is asking someone out on a date. I do not advocate that women do this. And please don't come up with the "what if he's shy" excuse... shy men have found a way to get girlfriends and get married for centuries... even the most shy men find the courage to go after a woman they really like.

I will say though that there's nothing wrong with starting a conversation with a man who happens to be in your general vicinity... or if you see him from across the room, wait until he goes to get food from the veggie tray or another drink and kind of meander your way to his area... then strike up some small talk about the food or the band or whatever.

A simple hello, a smile, a few sentences are enough for a woman to do. After that, let him do the work.

Halima said...

hi lisa99 would be so kind as to email me at something2say@gmail.com, there is something i would like to ask thanks!

H

Anonymous said...

well i didn't mean to offend anyone and i can see where that might of came off as a negative, but what i was just stating is it cant always be the guys job to be making the first move, and a smile and eye contact is way too small for someone to pick up as a green light, and no guy likes it when women have the "i have so many fish in the sea" mentality it makes them feel kinda worthless to her, i think pointing out there is a movie you would like to see if sufficient though for him to pick up on, and btw i've never had bad dating experiences i just watch too many friends end up in those situations so i'm just aware of them and ya i know alot of guys tag all women with WW mistakes but when your dealing with white guys that usually what hes use to so he expects similar things

Matthew said...

I think to accuse the anonymous guy of being damaged or thinking he is better than the girls is a tad unfair.
I think his problem is he is young, and therefore will mostly be around immature girls who see their relationships or potential relationships as a status symbol.

I have the exact same problem if im socialising with girls that are still at college.I find women above 25 are more open and tend to let me down easy if they are not interested.
So if a lady is mature, friendly and seems interested thats when im more likely to forget my nerves and make the first move.

Anonymous said...

A first move with a wm could be dangerous. A racist WM (or even if not racist, one who doesnt want to date a bw) will take this as an attack on his WHITE malehood. I've simply smiled and said hello to wm who have been friendly with me (once a former teacher, once a classmate) and have gotten a look of disgust/sneer from them. I am an attractive bw, as I've been told this by blacks and whites.
-Jess

Anonymous said...

Halima & others,
I have to say it is refreshing to see you call out bs by anyone ( in a CLASSY way of course), even a *gasp* white male. On one particular board it seems like wm can say ANYTHING and get away with it.
-Jess

Anonymous said...

Hi Halima..Just wanted to let you know that this "Jess" person is an undercover troll!!!

Look for him to deposit his usual grains of doubt and discord here. He showed up at a forum...and was quickly cut down. Nawwww...I caught you again son!!! ( direct message to Jess)

Nana said...

@Jess...

I don't think the average white man would take a bw approaching/being friendly as an attack on his white manhood. Most white men are so blind to their privilege that they neither see themselves through the lens of race nor gender. If anything, they see themselves as men. Period.

Aside from that, some white people are not used to blacks, and get uncomfortable/awkward when they have to interact with us, even if it's just smiling. Still, I honestly can't see how a white man would ever see a black woman being friendly as an "attack" of any sort.

Also, white people typically go out of their way to SEEM friendly and courteous, even if they are thinking all sorts of disgusting, racist thoughts about you. So the people who sneered at you are anomalies IMHO.

If a man is being rude to you simply because you smiled, that is just his personality. Courteous and/or kind people will not sneer at you for no reason, regardless of what they think of blacks. Try not to jump to so many racially-based conclusions.

I wonder who has been feeding you this garbage.

IslandGirl said...

Jess: "I've simply smiled and said hello to wm who have been friendly with me (once a former teacher, once a classmate) and have gotten a look of disgust/sneer from them."

That is extreme and kind of unbelievable. I live in an all white area and go to 99% white college. I smile and say hello first to many white men and I have never had one sneer at me or give me a disgusting look. Even if they don't smile back, which is rare, they never fail to return my greeting.

Although most white men are reluctant to take the opportunity to approach a smiling black woman, I don't think we need to lie and give black women the impression that most white men will be rude to them if they are simply friendly and smile.

It is actually normal human behavior to smile at people--even babies do it. Because so many black women are raised in toxic environments where a smile can be misconstrued to mean "I want to have sex with you" too many of us walk around with a serious/mean face that is not helpful, not just for dating but even for platonic friendships.

BWLivingWell said...

Exactly IslandGirl!!!

Matthew said...

"It is actually normal human behavior to smile at people--even babies do it."

This is why i dont think looking and smiling is a first move.
Asking them out or asking if they are in a relationship is the first move.

People who just say hello or good morning are simply being polite, thats not a first move either because srangers do it all time where i live.

Nicole Little said...

Hello, ladies, it's been a LOONG time since I've posted here. I've been going through a lot and I just want to come here and say hell to everybody. Here's a link to my new post:

http://blackwomenselflove.blogspot.com/2011/06/black-men-using-biological-science-to.html

IslandGirl said...

NIcole,

I read your post. Please stop reading or watching anything that "explains" why black women are less desirable than other women. It is not good for your mental health.

Black men are not worth thinking about. They are cruel and full of self-hate. They have failed black women and children and even themselves and black women are the only ones that they can safely blame.

Sheila said...

I know that BW are very beautiful. We have unique beauty and personalities that is why people like to be around us. BW we are very resourceful and we just need to start living well and other like minded people will start to see individuals. We have some much to offer and we are realizing that we are going to prosper because of our trememdous strength and personalities.

Nicole Little said...

NIcole,

I read your post. Please stop reading or watching anything that "explains" why black women are less desirable than other women. It is not good for your mental health.

Black men are not worth thinking about. They are cruel and full of self-hate. They have failed black women and children and even themselves and black women are the only ones that they can safely blame.


IslandGirl,

Thank you for telling me this because ever since I've watched those videos, I started feeling bad about myself and start hating my dark skin and natural tightly curled hair. I haven't felt like that in a long time, and I notice that it's mostly BLACK MEN that said this. Yes you hear racist non-blacks that said this too, but they don't take it to the extreme like these self-hating fools. I was emotionally drained. That's the reason why I haven't post here in my blog and other BWE blogs because I was that upset. And that so-called bullshit study that Japanese did, he probably see how a lot of brothers treat black women, and that's probably why he said that black women are least desirable which is bullshit. And the sad thing about this is that the only men that EMBRACE that study are BLACK MEN. Girl, you're right. They have tremendous self-hatred. They don't want to see black women happy. They want to drag us down. Well, I'm not going to let that happen!!!!

Anonymous said...

Yes, Nicole you must train yourself not to read that garbage written by a bunch of stupid men.
These men forget about their sisters.
You have to stop giving them a platform.

Go out this weekend and live your life. Go somewhere you would not usually travel.

a.

Nicole Little said...

Yes, Nicole you must train yourself not to read that garbage written by a bunch of stupid men.
These men forget about their sisters.
You have to stop giving them a platform.

Go out this weekend and live your life. Go somewhere you would not usually travel.


Thank you. I definitely will. Al;so, I need to get away from the computer for a while and styart taking care of myself physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually.

laureng said...

I think it is doubly hard for WM to approach BW which is probably the reason the white gentleman suggested that we make the first move.

It's understandable given our reputation as being too aggressive. At the same time the role reversal concerns me and could backfire.
BW initiating a friendly, fun conversation? Yes. Dropping strong hints? Yes. Asking out? Not so sure.

Maybe, as Halima said, the more they get used to the fact that we're just women and get used to us as potential partners, maybe down the road, some other BW could be the beneficiary of this process
and the WM won't need the BW to make the first move.

Halima said...

nicole the advise from island and anonymous is worth taking. many bw are being envenomated (like how a snake stuns and immobilizes prey with the use of venon). This means they become ready or stationary for abuse, miusue and to be the 'sport' of bm. there is something in many bw that feels they shiould take this kind of beating up and it is somehow the bw due to recieve soul killing criticism. you will be healtheir if you just brush off everything coming from that quater anyways!

IslandGirl said...

Nicole: Al;so, I need to get away from the computer for a while and styart taking care of myself physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually."

That is a good idea. But don't just say it, do it. Decide what you want/need to do, come up with a plan, write it down and get going.

You are a beautiful woman. There is nothing wrong with you. You will be forever miserable if you expect BM to validate your kind of beauty.

I was going to work on my degree this summer, but I changed my mind. I have decided that this summer will be devoted to self improvement, fun, and caring for myself. Belly dancing, and relearning Spanish using audio tapes and self study are some of the things that I am doing. I am also getting out more and going to social events and places that I never before considered, like the Polish Festival.

In addition, I am also looking into online business opportunities and working on an online dating profile. I plan to get serious about finding someone, even if it means leaving the area and continuing my graduate studies elsewhere.

I did not even read the article by that Japanese "researcher". I read discussions about it, but I was experiencing a lot of emotional stress and I did not want to take the chance of reading it and allowing that garbage to seep into my subconscious and make me even more depressed.

I am not going to let stuff like that into my head anymore. I will let the BW who are mentally strong enough to read that nonsense and then have a great laugh deal with things like that. One day I will be able to easily dismiss all the negativity, but right now I am still somewhat emotionally fragile, so I protect myself by deliberately avoiding negative material about us.

Black women are soft targets because our men do not defend us due to their own self hatred. I think it is quite interesting that more non-black men seemed to be offended by the article than black men.

Stop worrying about what BM think about BW and put your energy into yourself.

Nicole Little said...

Halima said...

nicole the advise from island and anonymous is worth taking. many bw are being envenomated (like how a snake stuns and immobilizes prey with the use of venon). This means they become ready or stationary for abuse, miusue and to be the 'sport' of bm. there is something in many bw that feels they shiould take this kind of beating up and it is somehow the bw due to recieve soul killing criticism. you will be healtheir if you just brush off everything coming from that quater anyways!

This is real talk. I'm going to learn how to brush off the negativity that targets black women. It's going to be hard, but I'm going to do it. I'll be 34 in 3 weeks, and I'm getting too old for this foolishness.

ARLYNE said...

Sometimes WM prefer to be introduced to a woman by a mutual friend. Cultivate friendships with WW. (This is not being deceitful. Want a friend--be a friend.) Let your friends know you are looking for a relationship and will definitely date WM. Many WW love to play matchmaker. Your "first move" can be arranging to be introduced to someone.

(I think that's how the lead character of the movie "Something New" met her love interest.)

IslandGirl said...

Arlyne: "Sometimes WM prefer to be introduced to a woman by a mutual friend. Cultivate friendships with WW. (This is not being deceitful. Want a friend--be a friend.) Let your friends know you are looking for a relationship and will definitely date WM. Many WW love to play matchmaker. Your "first move" can be arranging to be introduced to someone."

Arlyne,
I don't think most white women want to introduce white men of quality to black women, even the BW that they may consider friends. Most of the WW I know are actually against BW/WM IR even while they think BM/WW IR is okay.

Years ago I had an older white female friend who loved to play matchmaker because she felt that everyone should be married. She often had dinner parties and informal social gatherings at her home just for unmarried friends/acquaintances. She was somewhat upper class (but not college educated).

All the men that she invited to these social events were educated and at least upper middle class because she felt that women should always marry up, as she had done (she grew up poor in a housing project). The women invited ranged in education from high school graduate to pHd.

She never invited me or any black women to any of her social events because she said that she did not approve of IR relationships and she did not know any quality BM that she would be willing to invite to her home and introduce to women. Still, her niece and a couple of her daughter's closest girlfriends were married to black men and she had no problem with that.

Most WW would rather see a white guy with a WW, or an Asian woman if that is not possible. It really hurts their ego to think that a quality WM would want a BW over a white one. I don't think that BW should seek help from WW or even discuss their dating life/plans with them.

Look what happened to Jade when she turned to Dr Laura for help. Most American white women are like BM. They don't like us and they think that we should be content to be mules, mammies or baby mamas. They don't want to see BW living well. They want to be free to exercise all options in dating and marriage while restricting black women's options.

I think WM would be better matchmakers for BW. The problem, though, is that most BW don't have white male friends or even close acquaintances who can introduce them to other WM. Many WW actually meet partners through male friends and relatives or men that they had previously dated and liked but with whom they were not a good match.

Nana said...

My friends and I have discussed the issue of WW not approving of IR relationships.

Sometimes WW will try to get in the way because they're jealous and just want to c**kblock. Many of them are not used to thinking of BW as competition and don't want to begin. I think it's more of female jealousy/pettiness and a tinge of racism than being outright against BW/WM pairings.

I went to a social gathering yesterday that was very racially diverse and chatted with some WW. Toward the end, one WW recommended another social meetup that I might like and mentioned she met a Swiss man there. In my mind, I was very excited because I love European men, so I said, "European men go there?" with a smile on my face.

It took a while for me to realize that she had paused and given me a slightly uncomfortable/surprised look on her face. That woman is in a relationship anyway; if her man is satisfying her, she shouldn't care about what kind of men I'm pulling ; )

As for meeting people, I suggest going to social gatherings alone. I go out alone most of the time, and people are much more open to talking to me this way, particularly men. Many people don't consider this option because I find that it's much harder for people to socialize in new environments when they're alone and don't know anyone. I'm very much used to this, and it's serving me very well. If I want to go out with a girl friend, it's usually to spend quality time with her and not to meet anyone new, unless she is introducing.

As for the comment about WM introducing other men to BW, I also don't believe men and women can be platonic friends. Several people will disagree, I know. Acquaintances, yes. Friends, no. If I see a man wants to spend a significant amount of time with me or always makes it a point to chat me up (even in a "friendly" way), I will automatically gauge that he's attracted and therefore it's my turn to decide whether I'm interested as well. In either case, he most likely would not want to see me with one of his buddies.

Anonymous said...

To Island Girl:

I agree with you. It is the rare ww that does not have an issue with a wm/bw relationship.

You co-worker is such a hypocrit. I bet she just loves their children. Your co-worker may have some undercover attention to bm but, doesn't want anyone to know about it.

It is a pity that this woman is so hateful. At least she is open with her negative feelings about wm/bw relationships. People like your co-worker make it more difficult for wm/bw to meet/date/marry.

This just means that you and your bw co-workers will have to be more inventive when it comes to meeting other race men. Have your own party and invite some of the other race men from work, give the party at a club house or nice hotel meeting room.
Keep that witch(co-worker) out of your personal life, you two have only a working relationship and nothing else.

To Nana:
We do not cares if other race women approve of us dating other race men. Other race women look out for themselves and we should do the same.

I so agree with your statement...
" I think it's more of female jealousy/pettiness and a tinge of racism than being outright against BW/WM pairings."

Ww have no other choice but, to accept the fact that wm like aw and there is very little ww can do about it.
I had a ww co-worker who was so envious of our Vietnamese co-worker. LOL, she even compared the size of their butts.
IMO, the aw who was married carried herself well, unlike her. The aw didn't over talk herself and she mainly talked in her own language to her fellow Vietnamese.
She kept an air of mystery surounding herself. As a matter of fact one of the wm was trying his best to get her to date or leave her husband for him. Also, I knew of 2 or 3 other wm(with good positions) who were dating aw at that time.

I think men like mysterious women but, not so much a woman who plays very hard to get. LOL, sometimes we can run so fast the guy can't catch up to us.

I would agree that most other race women are surprised to find out that some bw do like other race men, more competion for them.

Yes, I too have gone out by myself and had a good time. Yes, a man will approach a single woman faster than a group of women.

Being approachable(a warm smile, a nice dress/outfit, parfume- not loud smelling, a sense of humuor) is always a good thing.

a.

IslandGirl said...

As for the comment about WM introducing other men to BW, I also don't believe men and women can be platonic friends. Several people will disagree, I know. Acquaintances, yes. Friends, no.

Nana,
I agree with your comments. I really believe women should go out alone if the main purpose of a social event is to meet men.

I also think that it is okay to use white female friends to gain exposure to white men, but do not expect her to play match maker. If you meet a white guy in her social circle, he has to be brave enough to make the first move, provided that the BW is friendly. What the white female friend thinks about it is not relevant, if the guy is his own person.

There are different types of friendships and I believe that men and women can be friends. Not all friendships have to be close and intimate. I guess it is just a matter of choice of words; men will refer to even an acquaintance as a friend or buddy, while women seem to be more careful about whom they call friend.

I am a very attractive woman and I have male friends. These are the types of "friends" who invite me to parties, barbeques, and social gatherings with other people present. Or help me to move furniture and fix my computer. But I don't confide my secrets to them and we don't spend time alone together in an intimate way.

Every man is not attracted to every woman. Or even if he is attracted to her, that does not mean that he wants to have a relationship or even sex with her. I am physically attracted to a lot of men that I would never consider for a romantic relationship for various good reasons.

I guess the thing is, unless BW learn to become more comfortable with white men in general, then interracial romance will always be a problem. Socializing with white women will not help BW to feel more comfortable with white men. So whether we call them friends or acquaintances, BW need to interact with white men in more friendly, social ways. Then maybe romance can evolve from one of those interactions.

Anonymous said...

It is easier to mingle if one goes to more festivals. Start a conversation about a band or some food you have never tasted.

Good luck.

a.

Billie said...

I kind of prefer the traditional role of being pursued but as men can be unsure especially when it comes to IR dating I just make sure to give them certain positive signals like making eye contact or making sure I'm ready for a nice conversation when I'm approached.

ps. love your blog!

Nicole Little said...

IslandGirl, I like your comment because it makes a lot of sense. Yes, men and women CAN be friends. Hell, I have more male friends than female friends. And speaking of white women, I understand that white women do not want to see black women dating their own men but not all white women are like that. You can have white women as friends. I have white women who I'm buddies with and they don't hate seeing white men with black women. The ones that do have some jealousy issues. To tell you the truth, I don't like seeing black women and white women warring with each other and fighting each other. I want us to get along. We have to realize that it's MEN that causes women of all races to not get along with each other. On the other hand, I also believe that the reason why white women have resentment towards black women, and the reason why some white women hate seeing white men with black women goes all the way back to slavery. I call it "generational resentment". Generations and generations of white women used to see their white husbands sneak into the slave quarters and sleep with a WHOOLE lot of black women. That's where light-skinned blacks came from. The white slave masters used to have black slave women's bed next to his bed even though he and his wife are in the same bedroom!!!!! Anytime a white woman constantly seeing white men going to black women instead of giving her some loving, it will cause generations and generations of white women to have some hatred towards black women. In my opinion, that's the MAIN reason why they would rather see a white man with a white or Asian woman instead of black women. It goes way deeper than the surface.

IslandGirl said...

Nicole: "On the other hand, I also believe that the reason why white women have resentment towards black women, and the reason why some white women hate seeing white men with black women goes all the way back to slavery."

Nicole,
I don't think that is the reason.
I really doubt that WW passed down that baggage through the generations to their daughters. Unlike BW who refuse to let go of their hatred/fear of WM, pass it on to their daughters and are limiting their options in the marriage/dating game. White women and BM seem to have gotten over their fear of each other.

Even while white men had illicit relationships with BW, the WW was always held up as the standard of beauty. WW were always secure in the fact that WM would choose them as the wife. I think many WW in the days of slavery liked the fact that WM were using BW for sex and not defiling WW. In the end, she was still above the BW and could even abuse her if she wanted to.

But slavery is over and many white men are now willing to have loving relationships with BW. Most white women's egos cannot accept that a WM would see a BW as beautiful and want her as a legitimate mate, not just for sex. It threatens their position as the most desired/beautiful women on the planet. WM choosing BW as mates will validate black beauty and that is not something that WW can handle.

WW grow up in a world that validates their beauty and as a result,even some of the plain ones think that they are more beautiful than a BW simply because they are white.

Just be careful of your white girlfriends in the same way that you should be careful of damaged black people who may want to keep you from dating white men. Don't discuss your dating life with white women. Enjoy their company and use them as a means to get access to white men, but don't trust them too much with the interracial stuff. In my opinion WW are more racist than WM.

Nicole Little said...

Nicole: "On the other hand, I also believe that the reason why white women have resentment towards black women, and the reason why some white women hate seeing white men with black women goes all the way back to slavery."

Nicole,
I don't think that is the reason.
I really doubt that WW passed down that baggage through the generations to their daughters. Unlike BW who refuse to let go of their hatred/fear of WM, pass it on to their daughters and are limiting their options in the marriage/dating game. White women and BM seem to have gotten over their fear of each other.

Even while white men had illicit relationships with BW, the WW was always held up as the standard of beauty. WW were always secure in the fact that WM would choose them as the wife. I think many WW in the days of slavery liked the fact that WM were using BW for sex and not defiling WW. In the end, she was still above the BW and could even abuse her if she wanted to.

But slavery is over and many white men are now willing to have loving relationships with BW. Most white women's egos cannot accept that a WM would see a BW as beautiful and want her as a legitimate mate, not just for sex. It threatens their position as the most desired/beautiful women on the planet. WM choosing BW as mates will validate black beauty and that is not something that WW can handle.

WW grow up in a world that validates their beauty and as a result,even some of the plain ones think that they are more beautiful than a BW simply because they are white.

Just be careful of your white girlfriends in the same way that you should be careful of damaged black people who may want to keep you from dating white men. Don't discuss your dating life with white women. Enjoy their company and use them as a means to get access to white men, but don't trust them too much with the interracial stuff. In my opinion WW are more racist than WM.


It's true that in general, WW are a little more bias towards black women than white men, but again, not all of them are like that, and I'm not going to have hatred towards them. Blame society for that. As far as slavery, I disagree with you on that. Even though the white man did put white women on the pedestal, they still sneak behind their wives back to sleep with black women. Whether if it's for sex or not, you're not going to sleep with somebody that you're not attracted to. It doesn't make sense. I still think that white women resentment towards black women started from slavery. If I were a woman, and I see my husband creeping on me with other women, I'm going to have some resentment towards other women myself. This is the truth. Black women need to stop viewing themselves as less than. We need to think positive about ourselves. If you don't love yourself, then how are you expect someone to love you?

IslandGirl said...

Nicole: "It's true that in general, WW are a little more bias towards black women than white men, but again, not all of them are like that, and I'm not going to have hatred towards them."

Nicole,
I have no hatred toward WW or any group of people. During my 20s, my best friend and most of my female acquaintances were white because I have been living, working and going to school in predominantly white areas since I left home as a teenager. There are a lot of WW that I genuinely like and a few that I have loved as sisters.

I never said that you should have hatred toward WW. And I never said that ALL WW were the same. When talking about racial issues, I don't think it is necessary to always mention that we are speaking in generalities, and that there are exceptions to the rule.

For example, we talk about how BM don't value and protect BW but we know that there are some BM who do value BW. But as a general statement, BM don't value and protect BW is true.

I don't blame society for WW's prejudice. I blame WW. I hold each adult responsible for his or her beliefs. It is your choice to trust WW, knowing how tricky the interracial dating game is for BW. But I personally do not share the fact of my preference for WM or information about my dating life with WW anymore (or black people, for that matter). Don't be surprised if a WW tries to undermine you the way many BM try to undermine BW dating WM. If no one knows my plans, then no one can thwart them.

Furthermore, no American WW who is under 150 years old has had the experience of seeing her husband with a slave woman. In addition, not all WW were raised in the southern states where slavery was practiced.

I disagree that men have to be attracted to a woman to have sex with her. Men experience sexual urges whether or not they are in the presence of an attractive woman and some of them will satisfy those urges with any available woman. That is why the military provides prostitutes for their men and these women are not chosen for their attractiveness, but for their willingness to sleep with lots of men. Look at some of the unattractive, filthy, drug-addicted street prostitutes that men patronize in large cities.

If you think that a white slave owner treated his black concubine as well as his white wife just because he had sex with her, then I don't know what to say. Sure the WW had some sexual jealousy, but in no way did she feel threatened by the BW because she knew that her husband would never divorce her to marry a slave. If anything, she had to worry about her husband leaving her for a younger WW.

Times were different then and women had to accept their husbands having sex outside of marriage with slaves, prostitutes or mistresses. Women were financially dependent on men so they had to accept infidelity. It is only recently, starting in the middle of the 20th century, that western women have been able to demand fidelity in marriage and be able to walk away from unfaithful men. In most parts of the world, women still have to look the other way when it comes to their husband's infidelity.

WW were raised to fear BM just as BW were raised to fear WM. But WW and BM have gotten past that. BM and WW seem to want BW and WM to continue to fear and distance themselves from each other because their egos can't handle the competition.

Nicole Little said...

IslandGirl, This makes a lot of sense. I just don't want us black women to think that we're less than white women in terms of beauty and everything.

Of course a white man during slavery times are not going to marry a slave before a white woman. It was against the law. I still think that white women are jealous of black women though. They alway have and they always will.

A white woman DOES feel threaten when she come across a dark skinned black woman who's slim, attractive, and feminine because in the back of their minds, a dark skinned black woman is not SUPPOSED to be attractive. That's why in the media, you constantly see an unattractive old-looking fat black woman next to a slim, youthful-looking, attractive white woman to give an illusion that black women are fat and ugly when we all know that's far from the truth.

With that being said, I also want black women and white women to get along. NO, you DO NOT have to tell white women (or people in general) your business about you dating white men. That's a NO NO! I will NEVER advise black women to do that! But yet and still, I still want to see black women and white women get along with each other and stop hating one another. I always see black men and white men get along with each other all the time, but when it comes to black women and white women, it's like a constant war with them.

The reason why I'm saying this is because I love all kinds of music, and and even though the majority of my favorite female singers are African-American, there are some that are white women as well like Sinead O'Connor, Teena Marie, Sheena Easton, Cyndi Lauper, Madonna, Christina Aguilera, Olivia Newton John, Lady Gaga, Karen Carpenter, Barbra Streisand, Kelly Clarkson. Am I suppose to get rid of their music simply because they're white women? No. I don't go by color when it comes to music. I wasn't raised like that. I'm versatile.

Jay Gaultieri said...

I was approached by a Black woman (at work!) and the exchange went like this:

"So you like Black girls?"

"Yeah, I've had Black girlfriends before."

"Can I have some?"

It's wonderful when a woman makes the first move, but that was a little extreme.