I keep getting emails from bm challenging things I have said by asking me to prove it(though many of them refute the stats that I do present). The truth is that these men want to leave me with no argument whatsoever, they know certain things cannot be readily proved at least with hard evidence and they might as well be asking me to prove that 'water is wet'lol!.
Some one said I should prove what I wrote in one of my recent articles; ‘90 % of bw who say a wm cannot love a bw the way a bm can have never dated out’. Another one said I should prove that bm prefer lighter skinned women! I ask you sisters, do we need to wait for someone to do a study to confirm what we see everyday with our eyes, what our instincts tell us despite the protestations of bm and other bw. Or maybe some of us think our instinct are only there to be ignored!
Let me tell you something sisters, Never Ever doubt your own experiences and the deductions you make from them! Never put what you know deep down aside for what folks tell you is the reality!
I think we have done a lot of that in the past to our detriment. Remember many black folks will never admit how dire things are or admit anything that could suggest a change of strategy is in order, they are invested in 'keeping hope alive' in the old way, and so if you are waiting on them to give you the go ahead to ‘try something new/a new way’, you will be waiting forever.
Trust me you don’t reach 70% singleness without a few alarm bells going off along the way. I believe we are at this crisis point as bw because we decided to ignore our gut instincts, our judgements on how things are and everything our eyes were clearly telling us, for some explanation that suited our romantic ideals about the black community. And there were many many folks who capitalised on this need to 'keep the faith' to put us off what we knew we had to do. Some of you will never get back the years you have lost by believing in someone else’s version of events!
Most of us trust an alarm system in the event of a fire. But what happens if the alarm system doesn’t go off and you see smoke or flames? Do you sit there waiting for the next beam to collapse or does your instinct of survival kick in. Some of you have been sitting in that burning house and there is just one beam left holding up the place and you are still sitting there waiting to be given permission to survive!
I am asking every bw to reactivate her survival instinct over this issue of relationship. Essence will not tell you its time to think differently (in fact they have just done another one of those bachelor things they do and there are no non-black male in the line up, and so the message remains, ‘keep your focus and hopes on bm!’), Ebony wont (they might but in a way that would make the option seem unappealing because they would rather keep you hanging around for bm). If the alarm systems have failed for whatever reason, let your instinct take over.
If I am saying anything on this blog that does not rhyme with your experiences then throw it away! If you know that all the BM around you dont celebrate light skin, dont expect you to be an unrewarded mule, are eager to marry you and the black women around them (and this is not just about your need to give 'vote of confidence' to your beloved race), then ignore everything said here. If however you know that a lot of what is said here resonates with your experiences then its time to move forward. I hear people repeat the mantra 'There are good bm out there'. What does your experience tell you? Does it say, ‘Yes keep searching’ or ‘keep your options open for all good men!’.
Sistas its time to get serious with taking our future. Some of you are acting like you have the proverbial 9 lives of a cat, and can very easily sacrifice one of them to your loyalty to the race, because the next time around you can open your options, but ladies this is it, this is the only life you have to live!
Mourn the dream of a black prince if you have to, but get up soon because there is a world of opportunity waiting and there needs to be some movement towards survival and towards the future. What has your experience been so far? What does your gut instinct tell you at this point in time? Listen and act accordingly!
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1 – 200 of 308 Newer› Newest»Keep doing what you are doing. It's very useful.
So what about the fact that perceptions are often demonstrably false?
And let the church say "AMEN"!! Bravo Sister!! Bravo!!
At the end of the day, individuals are answerable to themselves only for their choices in their personal lives, and all one has is one's perceptions and gut instincts. Figure out your stance, and stand by it! Find the internal compass, as you said before, "and don't let it become confused!"
Halima,
Great postings. I have to share a little bit of ridiculousness that I saw on TV yesterday that I am sure you ladies will appreciate. It further outlines the color struck issues on our community and how it continues in young DBR bm to this day - openingly and unapologetically.
I had the misfortune of being trapped watching BET while waiting for my car to be fixed. Anyway this new BET 'reality show' entitled "Baldwin Hills" was on. I guess it is supposed to be a version of MTV's "The Hills", but with middle to upper middle class black kids.
Two black youths aged between 17-19 named - Daymeon and Earl did a stand up comedy show and were beyond horrible. Earl was bad, but Daymeon got up there and started talking about camels and horses doing it "in the butt and stuff" and said he couldn't help if he was stupid because he was dark skinned. He also said something about dark skinned women being "darkies." At that point, the audience got deadly silent and he walked off stage. After the show, friends very diplomatically told him that he should not have said that because it was very offensive and unneccessary. He didn't understand why, so he went home and asked his mother why that was wrong. She told him why, and his response was to say that he liked light skinned girls but really loved "snow bunnies" with blonde hair and blue eyes with no butt. When mom (who is dark skinned) told him that was awful, he said that if he gets with a black girl he'll go broke. And he said white girls who have butts aren't good because they act "black." His mother ended up walking away from him, after trying to point out that if dark skinned women were shunned he wouldn't be alive. His reply? It's a new era, and he needs to be with white girls only.
Basicaly, he makes me weep for the future of our youth. I wish that his view was an extreme, sick minority amongst black male teenagers (and adults) today, but I sincerely doubt that it is. Hell BET itself is Exhibit A and you need only look to the 'higher echelon' of successful black men to realize that this view is shared by many of them. If not by words then by actions.
That fool on BET was right about one thing though, it is a new era and that is why blogs like Halima's and Evia's are that much more important to bw. We have to throw away all those antiquated feelings that white men and non-black men are all racists and only use bw. We have to realize that black men who exhibit a preference for non-black women and denigrate, belittle and demean bw are “the new racists"
-Prettyislandgirl
Halima,
Again you have another post that is on point.
I have several things I wanted feedback from the board on and some are on and off topic.
1. In response to the 30 days to a date challenge: I did go to the museum. I flirted with 2 nonblack males. I now have a nonblack flirting partner that I met in a local store. He has been very friendly - which has kind of taken me off guard. It is exciting in some ways. I had no idea that I would be putting this much effort into communicating with someone because I am constantly think what should I say,do etc when I see him next.
2. I am seeking feedback on femininity and beauty. My head is now messed up when it comes to beauty, but not in a bad way because its changing. Since Evia and your blogs have both touched on colorism/features - I have been examining and un-re- learning certain things I suppose. I have been practicing looking at images of people and questioning my beliefs/feelings/thoughts about those images. I think I did ascribe to a hierarchy of beauty, but after doing these exercises for so long that is changing, but I am still unsure of myself. I have decided to make some cosmetic changes.
I ask you sisters, do we need to wait for someone to do a study to confirm what we see everyday with our eyes, what our instincts tell us despite the protestations of bm and other bw.
No, we do not.
Let me tell you something sisters, Never Ever doubt your own experiences and the deductions you make from them! Never put what you know deep down aside for what folks tell you is the reality!
Exactly.
It's like that old Eddie Murphy joke from "Raw" (you know, the one with the purple leather pants).
The joke involved a man that was caught red-handed in bed with another woman. When his woman caught them, he said
It wasn't me.
And his woman answered, but I saw you with my own eyes!
And he responded Wasn't me.
And this kept going on and on until finally the woman said, Well, maybe it wasn't you...
That's what these guys are hoping for. That we'll tire out and say, Well gee, maybe I can't trust my own eyes. Maybe I can't trust my own experiences.
Ain't gonna happen.
So what about the fact that perceptions are often demonstrably false?
As someone once said on this blog,
We are all NOT having a mass hallucination here!
Our observations and experiences can not be invalidated by you who are fine with the status quo.
Halima said: "(in fact they have just done another one of those bachelor things they do and there are no non-black male in the line up, and so the message remains, ‘keep your focus and hopes on bm!’), Ebony wont (they might but in a way that would make the option seem unappealing because they would rather keep you hanging around for bm). If the alarm systems have failed for whatever reason, let your instinct take over."
This is so damn stupid because the majority of black male magazines feature non-black women on the covers and on damn near every other page. Not to mention the fact that some cross eyed hispanic chick was named the hottest chick of the year. Sometimes I get more pissed off at the bw sitting around reading that garbage & twindling their thumbs waiting on some black massa kang with all the in blatant in your face evidence which shows that bm on their level ain't even thinking about them.
This really is about survival of the fittest.
Not suprised about that BET story. Most bm just don't admit it on film. Hell, many have no idea that they have a problem - just a preference. Well, I guess then it is okay for white people to have a preference for hiring other white people or have a preference for giving harsher sentences for crack then cocaine.
Most bm are also getting very smart about hiding their preference. I know of one Hollywood bm star who has a preference for light, bright but most especially white females but he is smart enough not to parade around with them because it may hurt his music and film career. In fact he disguises his racism by always pretending to have a crush on dark skinned females when in fact the opposite is true. He even pulled the wool over the eyes of the incomparable Oprah.
hi,
hope i'm not intruding. just found
this site and have read alot--still catching up. i am a wm. i feel bw are beautiful and should be treated with the respect, dignity and love they deserve!! i
have found this site very encouraging and informative.
keep up the good work.
Halima said: "Ebony wont (they might but in a way that would make the option seem unappealing because they would rather keep you hanging around for bm)."
Funny. Was it Ebony or Essence who did that article a few years back about sistas dating irr. The article was supposed to be about bw/wm, but as written it turned out to be about 1/8 about bw/wm the other 7/8 talked about why bm dated ww and what was wrong with bw. I remember being pissed off to no ends about that article.
Needless to say, those chitling magazines don't get my money anymore.
Anonymous said...
So what about the fact that perceptions are often demonstrably false?
Then the question becomes whose possibly false perceptions we should trust: yours, or our own?
Permission to survive
I think a person's survival instinct can be crippled, hobbled, or even disabled.
If enough people tell/show you the same thing repeatedly - you can eventually grow to doubt your feelings and perceptions - especially if they start this at a young enough age or at a stressful/critical point in your life when you are vulnerable.
Love is a powerful motivator. I think people will endure a lot if they think the payoff is great enough.
I know from a few personal experiences that whenever I had a number of people (especially people I trusted or people in positions of authority) tell me the same thing repeatedly - I would trust them versus my own perceptions. And that cost me dearly and put me in some dangerous situations, but I can understand and see how others can do the same. I had to go through and am still going through the process of rebuilding trust in my own judgement.
Also in my life when that was coupled with negativity it put me in a defensive position of having to prove I was not whatever they were throwing on me. It made me feel like I was flawed and something was wrong with me and the unspoken promise was that if I can correct a, b, and c about myself or if I can complete x, y, z actions just right, then I would be able to get the prize. Which never happened.
I think some bw are maybe stuck there when it comes to survival and potential mates.
You have other bw, bm, and the church saying there are good bm out there implying you need to wait on that good bm. You have bw who say they have no problem attracting decent bm - which may be true, but would cause the women who is not attracting these quality males to be like horse chasing the carrot on the string - that if only she could do or be x then she will get the prize. And the unspoken promise/lie it that there is something she can do (a change within herself or her actions) to make that happen.
I think most bw don't have anything to compare what is to what could be. I know I didn't until I came across a certain set of blogs. :)
It was like once I was a little sad and I took an impromptu trip out of state. I had no idea how badly I was feeling until I got in a different environment and started feeling good.
I also think maybe bw don't realize what is available to them personally. I have been active reading and sometimes posting at your and Evia's blog and I see the pics and I hear the stories and I think how wonderful, but it has been a process internalizing and personalizing it- to be able to say that can be me or that can happen to me.
Prettyislandgirl
Say it isn't so! Wow.
"She told him why, and his response was to say that he liked light skinned girls but really loved "snow bunnies" with blonde hair and blue eyes with no butt. When mom (who is dark skinned) told him that was awful, he said that if he gets with a black girl he'll go broke. And he said white girls who have butts aren't good because they act "black." His mother ended up walking away from him, after trying to point out that if dark skinned women were shunned he wouldn't be alive. His reply? It's a new era, and he needs to be with white girls only."
The fact that he felt perfectly comfortable saying that to his mother's face says a lot. I'm sure she didn't intend to raise him to be a DBR but I'm sure both of his parents played a role in his perceptions about color.
Most bm are also getting very smart about hiding their preference. I know of one Hollywood bm star who has a preference for light, bright but most especially white females but he is smart enough not to parade around with them because it may hurt his music and film career. In fact he disguises his racism by always pretending to have a crush on dark skinned females when in fact the opposite is true. He even pulled the wool over the eyes of the incomparable Oprah.
Yep, Jaime Foxx ain't fooling nobody with his "crushes" on Oprah and Serena.
But he talked himself into a corner because he used to go on and on about loving "thick sistas" in his early interviews.
HE is the one that made it an issue. I believe it was in Vibe where he said that the "real" sisters stood by him when he was a nobody and the "Hollywood" chicks were only looking when he became famous.
He was probably talking smack to pander to his black female fans, but now the poor thing is "in the closet" about his true preferences.
Black male stars are not new to this tactic. Marvin Gaye is said to have been VERY nervous about his female fans seeing his young (very light) wife Jan. He said, "Black women pay a lot of money for love songs."
"Most bm are also getting very smart about hiding their preference. I know of one Hollywood bm star who has a preference for light, bright but most especially white females but he is smart enough not to parade around with them because it may hurt his music and film career. In fact he disguises his racism by always pretending to have a crush on dark skinned females when in fact the opposite is true. He even pulled the wool over the eyes of the incomparable Oprah."
I know exactly who you're talking about.
A few months after 9/11 this comedian/actor/singer did an excellent standup show that was side splittingly funny. But one thing that turned me off was when he told the audience of going to South Africa for the first time, and being suprised at seeing so many beautiful women; he said something to the effect that there were so many women who looked like Halle Berry!! We all know what he means. (Sorry Halle, I love you!) That's when I realized that he has color issues. He is actually a very insightful man, so maybe he knows he has color issues and he struggles with it.
"ost bm are also getting very smart about hiding their preference. I know of one Hollywood bm star who has a preference for light, bright but most especially white females but he is smart enough not to parade around with them because it may hurt his music and film career. In fact he disguises his racism by always pretending to have a crush on dark skinned females when in fact the opposite is true. He even pulled the wool over the eyes of the incomparable Oprah."
Since he's such a hypocrite you should "out" him right here! He shouldn't be able to keep BW fantasizing in order to line his pockets.
A few months after 9/11 this comedian/actor/singer did an excellent standup show that was side splittingly funny. But one thing that turned me off was when he told the audience of going to South Africa for the first time, and being suprised at seeing so many beautiful women; he said something to the effect that there were so many women who looked like Halle Berry!! We all know what he means. (Sorry Halle, I love you!) That's when I realized that he has color issues. He is actually a very insightful man, so maybe he knows he has color issues and he struggles with it.
Interesting.
I remember Will Smith saying the same thing. He said that he was ashamed to be surprised to see beautiful women in S. African whle filming Ali. He said it reminded him of NY, Philadelphia or Chicago.
"Yep, Jaime Foxx ain't fooling nobody with his "crushes" on Oprah and Serena."
ah ok, just saw your post. thanks.
I am the anon, that posted the original story about that hollywood bm and his predilection for white. I should have posted his name but I didn't know what your views on this board are about celeb gossip since this isn't the purpose of the board.
But since we already went there. It is Jamie. To add fuel to the fire, last year sometime he was spotted in a rather passionate kiss with that beautiful black actress Meagan Good. In an interview with OK!Magazine and some other publications, Meagan said she had known Jamie for years and they lunch or something together. She said when they left the restaurant all these paparazzi rolled up on them and snapped those pics. She said Jamie has never kissed her on the mouth before and she was shocked and that the pics looked worse than they were. She said in OK magazine that she believed Jamie set her up.
There had always been rumors and also our eyes (his date/girlfriend during all those awards he got for Ray was just a stone throws away from passing)that stated that Jamie had a proclivity for vanilla. Right before this he been photographed leaving clubs with white girls. Rumors were flying that he was getting serious with some playmate (white girl obviously). Being caught kissing a beautiful obviously black actress were to squelch those rumors. Meagan always went on to say in a very pointed way that she wasn't Jamies "type."
It appears that Terrence Howard is also following this game plan. Because now he is all of a sudden being seen exclusively in the company of dark skin models and actresses. When prior to this he had a white wife and after that he was dating Mark Anthony's ex-wife, Dayannara Torres - hispanic. So now we have to look at the totality of the circumstances.
It is sad but says a lot that most black people think African means black, non-light and non-mixed which automatically equals ugly. What is even sadder is that they are shocked to see so many lighter skin people and then realize that everyone isn't dark and therefore ugly in Africa.
That is why that I am never suprised when bm rappers/singers etc., go on location to shoot their trashy videos they choose places like South America (especially Brazil), Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico or some other location with a higher concentration of multi-racial women. If they did choose an African nation, you just know it would be a place like Somali or Ethiopia. Good forbid it would be someplace like Nigeria, Haiti or Chad were there is very little dilution of the black gene.
So in short, don't support fools that don't support you. Include the singer Jaheim on that list. We should keep a running tab.
I saw the 50 men Essence has, and they are encouraging their readers to chase after these guys. I cannot imagine where in the world they would have a problem finding a bw. A couple are Hollywood actors, which is suspicious to me.
In the same issue, Tyler Perry talks about how bw chase after him. One scaled the fence of a home he is now selling. He said in effect: I chase the woman, don't chase me.
Just once I'd like to see them offer up a mixed group of men, to admire, not chase. At least to show it is not just bm that like bw.
Sometimes I don't know if I should cry or punch a wall when I read this blog.
The comments about Jamie and Terrence are...disappointing. However, at this point, I no longer shocked.
To be honest I think my apathy towards bm starting to take effect after the Imus debacle pointed out HOW bad bw have been denigrated at the hands of bm; Imus is ignorant but bm have long been silent about the disgusting treatment of bw in "hip hop."
I was finished with bm "stars" in general when I discovred that the new "in thing" was for "artists" to go to Brazil to film their videos so they can get the "long hair like you're Cuban" non-bw. Apparently, this has created an entire "tourism" market for bm who now go to Brazil to find such ladies.
BM now have to go to another continent to find non-bw...I GIVE UP. I'm done with them.
pinky
"But since we already went there. It is Jamie. To add fuel to the fire, last year sometime he was spotted in a rather passionate kiss with that beautiful black actress Meagan Good. In an interview with OK!Magazine and some other publications, Meagan said she had known Jamie for years and they lunch or something together. She said when they left the restaurant all these paparazzi rolled up on them and snapped those pics. She said Jamie has never kissed her on the mouth before and she was shocked and that the pics looked worse than they were. She said in OK magazine that she believed Jamie set her up."
Wow, I didn't know that.
As for South Africa, let's not forget that they have a sizeable population (3 or 4 millions) of mixed people, and I believe this is who Jamie was referring to when he said he was surprised that there were so many beautiful women in Africa. Yes that was a colorist remark he made in the show called I might need security
I think Jamie should just go ahead and stop fronting. I don't have an issue with that. As long as he doesn't put down BW (a la Wesley Snipes), even if he marries a WW, we will still support him, he is a fine actor.
anon said: "In the same issue, Tyler Perry talks about how bw chase after him. One scaled the fence of a home he is now selling. He said in effect: I chase the woman, don't chase me."
Not only does that magazine need to stop featuring only bm for bw, but they should also stopping including men on the DL too. Sorry, but nothing can convince me that Tyler Perry is straight. What a joke!! Just when you think it can't get any worse, they drop down another level or two.
Halima's whole post remembers me of that old saying, "Are you going to believe me or you're lying eyes?" We all can't be crazy, but what drives us, me anyway, crazy is the constant denial of what everyone and their mama can see with their own bloody eyes. There has been a consistent rejection of the image of the unadulterated non-diluted bw that has reached epic proportions. And not just in the media but in the everyday lives of bm and bw. I am still reeling over the attacks of Usher's current wife Tameka. What was even more sad is that much of the attacks was/are coming from bw.
Let's see. there's also Wesley Snipes and Taye Diggs. They've "at least" been honest about their negative feelings towards Black women.
"Just once I'd like to see them offer up a mixed group of men, to admire, not chase. At least to show it is not just bm that like bw."
Yes, it's time.
Wow..Taye Diggs has said negative things about bw ?
:Adds another to my never supporting again list:
pinky
hello,
If you are really strong, take your life in your own hands and date with whoever you want.
YOU are free, so YOU have the right to live and to create YOUR life the way YOU like it, not these other people all around. Not even your mom or dad, not your brother or sister. You dont need to ask anyone for permission.
What are you waiting for ?
No senseful thinking man would ever call you desperate or would ever judge, just because you like to expand your horizon and date someone from "another corner of the city."
We all live in a country, where people from all over the world live and work together.
Would it be wrong to share my life with people from some of these nations ? Why shouldn't I date a beautiful lovely women from another city, another state, another country or even another nation, no matter wether she is black or white ? There is no reason why I should not do this. And there is no reason why I should ask someone for permission. Its MY life and Its MY decision.
None of my mates, buddies, friends or family member ever would make rules about dating a black or non/white women. If so, I never would accept such stupid rules.
Life is what you gonna make it.
If you seperate all the things in your life into black or white, good or evil, ... your life seems to be very sad. But its YOUR live, you can do whatever YOU want.
I think, sometimes it would be better to turn the heads off just to make all the special things our hearts want us to do.
Please think about it. Sorry for my bad spelling, am a pale foreigner lol. Sweetest greetings
AnyOne white, male, from old Europe
I forget> When a white homme does not show any interests in dating a white femme, she never would think about her skin color could be the reason for this. So please ladies, just do it the same way when he might reject you. Dont make your skin color the reason of a rebuff.
Please dont take a reject too personally.
Love you !
Aphrodite>
1. In response to the 30 days to a date challenge: I did go to the museum. I flirted with 2 nonblack males. I now have a nonblack flirting partner that I met in a local store. He has been very friendly - which has kind of taken me off guard. It is exciting in some ways. I had no idea that I would be putting this much effort into communicating with someone because I am constantly think what should I say,do etc when I see him next.
Aphrodite, relax and forget the color, lady. Just do the same things you would do with your other friends. Just talk about the same things. As you have already noticed, we blancitos like also sports, motors, music, movies, theater, opera, a nice dinner, some drinks, a walk in the park, most important the company of a beautiful decent lady like you. So the next step would be a nice cup of coffee at a nice cafe if you feel comfortable ?
Hugs 2 you. Good luck to you next time.
pinkie-
don't want to give the wrong impression- I've mainly heard chatter online about Diggs. I'm not sure if he's actually said anything really negative. Just this quote ( as far as I know):
" then the interveiwer proceeded to ask him about his wife (who is white) and thats when Taye got a little irritated.
"I'm too far along in my life and in my career to really give a question like that any type of dignified answer, says Diggs, who was raised in black, middle-class Rochester, N.Y., intones. When I was in high school, maybe. College, maybe. But Im a grown-ass man and if people have a difficult time dealing with that, then I welcome them to see a movie with Omar Epps or Denzel Washington or some of those other brothers that have chosen to spend the rest of their lives with sisters, as you say. I just don't have time for it. You can't make everybody happy. And for the fans that are out there that are into me; they don't really give a f- what's going on with my personal life."
knockoutchick says:
I have a beautiful GF whose husband is also black. She is a petite adrk skinned beauty.
Her son of about 11 attends prep school in Manhattan and has mostly white friends...though my GF tries to counter common preceptions about dark skin and beauty...even she can not out weigh the constant barrage of signals that only fair is beautiful.
She recounted stories about how she will often point out pretty little black girls and comment to her son "Oh look at the beautiful little girl" If she is quite dark skinned, she says her son will always look around confused like "Where??" Where is she????"
"BM now have to go to another continent to find non-bw...I GIVE UP. I'm done with them."
There is nothing to give up. I have men in my family who don't automatically think lighter is better. Not all BM are mired in colorism, though unfortunately, too many do.
I am happily married to a WM, and when asked, I tell my sistas, don't save yourself for BM. There are good BM, and then again, there are good men of other races so be open to finding love with other races too and don't let people make you feel guilty for going IR.
Once upon a time, that was easier said than done.
There was a time when I felt unable to trust my instinct. I shudder to think about it because I know sometimes -if I don't pay attention- I can fall into that mode again.
What helped me a lot was that I had to think purely logical. not from the heart. It was weird, but it helped lol.
Like I had to say, x did a nice thing for me. Again. X must be trying to be friendly with me. Only then, i'd proceed and act friendly back. Whatever, everyone goes through stuff. If someone hasn't gone through hard stuff, then this is probably hard to understand.
I too must admit something didn't quite ring true about this Foxx Esq...even tho his sketch in front of Serena + BF was hilarious...top marks for that!
So tho slightly off topic (sorry Halima), here's Exhibit A with his comments on African 'mixed' women, wait till about 4:59
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-SfaloL728Q
In an interview with OK!Magazine and some other publications, Meagan said she had known Jamie for years and they lunch or something together. She said when they left the restaurant all these paparazzi rolled up on them and snapped those pics. She said Jamie has never kissed her on the mouth before and she was shocked and that the pics looked worse than they were. She said in OK magazine that she believed Jamie set her up.
Wow - I had forgotten about that. I remember that she was very adamant about it too. She didn't even try to play along.
It's a shame he feels he has to go to those lengths but he opened that door.
I don't have a problem with Jaime. I like him and I think he's very talented. I only have a problem the the BM that have contempt for BW. I don't think Jaime dislikes BW, but the pandering needs to stop.
I am still reeling over the attacks of Usher's current wife Tameka. What was even more sad is that much of the attacks was/are coming from bw.
It is my understanding that many of his BW fans felt betrayed because they feel that Usher is actually gay and she is somehow a coverup. Some also feel that this whole thing was a publicity stunt for his next album (due end of this year I think). He did the same thing with his last album and last girlfriend.
Who knows what is true? But it is truly sad that the only star today that decided to marry a dark BW has all of this drama. Then again, they certainly help it along.
to Anon @ 9.46 / WhiteMale from old Europe:
funny endearing comments, I lik what you said, much thanks.
there's a lot to be said about the terms 'de-programming' and 'mass hallucination' in the context of this blog. Back firmly on topic - my POV is that the increasing numbers of WM on Halima's, Evia's, C-1 (and maybe others as I write) shows me a few things
As BW / WM interested in IR we need to be clear on what changes we need to 'survive'.
To start with, BW (starting with me) need their thinking deprogrammed. 3 such key issues needing this deprogramming are that:
a] Only BM are interested in dating/romance/marriage with BW (NONT TRUE! Mass halluciation fed by poor perception & poorer information)
b]BW generalisations about non-BM are okay and that we can automatically assume things about WM or non-BM (as a defence mechanism against hurt or expected rejection): where a non-BM appears uninterested in BW (or who don't 'present' any such interest) one should not automatically assume that he's a segregated dater..maybe, because he didnt flirt (or respond) back. On that occasion.
One individual cannot represent all who share his melanin count. Same for what we BW expect and express#
As Anon 9.46 says in event of rejection,move on to better things, regardless.
Tough words but worth thinking over even when you get into IR
It appears that Terrence Howard is also following this game plan. Because now he is all of a sudden being seen exclusively in the company of dark skin models and actresses.
That's interesting. I've only seen him with Naomi Campbell - but I didn't get the impression they were dating.
I guess his ruse didn't take the desired effect!
Some one said I should prove what I wrote in one of my recent articles; ‘90 % of bw who say a wm cannot love a bw the way a bm can have never dated out’. Another one said I should prove that bm prefer lighter skinned women!
Proof! Proof! Are these folks serious! Halima, Eva and others speaking the truth – better yet all the women here living true to your truth in quiet dignity is the best revenge. The fact that these DBR Trolls have the temerity to demand - yes demand proof is evidence of just how skewed the minds of these people are and how much women need to think for themselves.
The utter nerve of these DBR folks is amazing! Is there no end to the insufferable arrogance?! What gives these fools the right to demand anything - they have no standing in this discussion! They are a moot point! An individual only has the right to make demands if they are a positive part of the solution and not the problem! The proof is in the doing - not the talking and these trolls are all talk and no positive action - henceforth they have forfeited the "right" to demand anything from anyone except themselves.
The women here are free, over 21, hard working, intelligent, responsible individuals - which is more than can be said for these self serving, selfish, self righteous, self destructive, non-productive - over reproductive, drain on society, manipulative, trolls.
Perception is reality – because people see what they want to see never mind the truth – as evidenced by these trolls. These trolls perceive themselves as having a right to demand “proof” which is patently false but that does not stop them! This only highlights the truth of the message being sent here.
To the trolls and DBRM – no one owes you anything – except the right to try! Get off the entitlement train! – That is the problem! The women here owe nothing to the trolls! The women here owe it to themselves and their future to be true to themselves.
V/r
Clarice
Halima:
I think that today's tagline should have had a question mark behind it. When I was in the army, whenever I wanted to do something my request had to start with "permission to....". Because I was in a military setting and not totaly free to do as I wished, it was necessary for me to get permission to proceed from a higher authority. How ironic it is that bw seem to be in exactly the same position! It is truly incredible to think that in the USA in 2007 any woman should need to ask permission to do that which is in her own best interests. The idea that a bw seeking a loving, satisfying and fulfulling relationship with someone other than a bm should require permission from ANYONE is beyond belief! As you and Evia, et al, have pointed out numerous times, this ain't no practice run, life is going on right now, and the choices that you make today will affect what your life is like tomorrow. In "Dr. Zhivago", Boris Pasternak made the observation that "man is born to live, not to prepare to live", you don't need anyone's permission to live. Make the choices that are in your best interests and do not believe that there are not men of other races out there who will love and cherish and care for you-because there are, ladies, there are.
"It is my understanding that many of his BW fans felt betrayed because they feel that Usher is actually gay and she is somehow a coverup. Some also feel that this whole thing was a publicity stunt for his next album (due end of this year I think). He did the same thing with his last album and last girlfriend."
I have never met a gay person who went through all this (public dissapproval and criticism) to be with and marry a "coverup". If he wanted a beard, he could have certainly found someone more suitable and less controversial.
Publicity stunt for next album??? What celebrity marries someones just because they have an album coming up? That doesn't make any sense.
Amen Clarice ..Amen.
Halima...I AM going after the blonde horn player ..too cute and talented to pass up.
I have a date with someone tomorrow...all day. No, he's not black either.
A nice, VERY handsome east Indian man has asked me out...so I'm going.
Freedom is n...i...c..e!
I don't watch actors based on who they love, so I'll still enjoy Jaime's movies, no problem. I equate it with actors who are gay who do not feel like they can come out of the closet. Are they good actors? That's my criteria. Their personal preferences do not matter to me. Now, that being said, if they actually say something offensive, then that's the reason to stop patronizing their products.
Ndel's World
I have never met a gay person who went through all this (public dissapproval and criticism) to be with and marry a "coverup". If he wanted a beard, he could have certainly found someone more suitable and less controversial.
Actually, I've seen gays go through all kinds of things for the sake of their careers...
but I don't think Usher is gay.
And, maybe my age is showing a bit, but I think most of his fans are in their early 20s/late teens so uh...
Publicity stunt for next album??? What celebrity marries someones just because they have an album coming up? That doesn't make any sense.
I think half of what most celebrities do these days is a publicity stunt.
Unlike previous generations, nearly every move they make is recorded - even videotaped! I think every inch of their life is plotted and planned and publicity stunts play a part.
I don't know all of the ins and outs about Usher, but I don't think he's immune.
" don't watch actors based on who they love, so I'll still enjoy Jaime's movies, no problem. I equate it with actors who are gay who do not feel like they can come out of the closet. Are they good actors? That's my criteria. Their personal preferences do not matter to me. Now, that being said, if they actually say something offensive, then that's the reason to stop patronizing their products."
Yes, but setting up your friend and staging a fake kiss for publicity seems offensive, so I don't know.
I don't think an actor should be able to ride to success and keep himself there using his supposed love of Black women. To me it's not the same as a gay actor somehow.
Re Jamie Foxx, this is the type of bm who Pearl Jr ('Black Women Need Love Too')says we should throw away and not spend a cent supporting anything he does. Her position is that bw should not help to make ANY bm rich just to watch him set a nonblack woman up in a life of comfort, ease, and luxury--while most sistas are struggling and stressed to the max.
Hmmmmm, I don't know whether Pearl has weighed in on Jamie, but I know that in the next few years, we're going to increasingly see a very large chunk of whichever bm who can do so, outdating, out-cohabiting, outmarrying. I think sistas should be determined to broaden their own options--even if you have to move to another state, region, etc. I heard there were lots of single men in Alaska. LOL! I moved to Darren's hometown--which wasn't that far from my own--when I married him. I would have moved thousands of miles if necessary. You must do whatever you need to do in order to have the life you want. So I moved here and I've made a new life.
The stats on bm's IR marriage do not reflect the large number of bm who exclusively date only nonblack women or are cohabiting with nonblack women.
This means that these men are NOT available to bw. This is why many young, attractive sistas have not gone out on a date in years. You know a bunch of these women. You may be one of them.
There are bm who you see every day who do not date bw, but you don't know this because, like Jamie, they know it's in their best interest to keep this from certain other black folks.
People who track money already know what's going to happen to the black community. It's all in the figures. If the wealthiest black men like Michael Jordan(heard he was dating a nonblack woman) invest their money in nonblack communities through their marriages and romantic interests, then this does nothing for the health of the bc, so it will very definitely continue to sink and those other communities will become more prosperous.
So I do trust my eyes. I keep my eyes on key indicators like marriage options or the lack of them, money, education, low birth rates for higher strata bw, stable families, etc. The whole story can be seen in those significant indicators. The bc is going to continue to be populated mostly by poorer black women, struggling alone with their kids, many of whom will be mostly at-risk of repeating the cycle. Dismal, yeah, but this is reality.
Sistas, y'all had better get out while you can because the ship is sinking fast. Black women cannot save the black community alone. And don't let anyone convince you that black women were put here to be mules.
Hey my name is Jay. So where is the alarm?? Is it soundin off anywhere?? Cuz it sho is silent in the south. I dont see IR relationships abounding where I live and I live in a white majority area. Like I have been emailing you before the numbers that any form of media say is true is more than likely not true. Like I said I have majored in Statistics and statistics itself can tell you that the numbers are wrong. Like you said. Proving those numbers is like tryin to prove water is wet. If you cant prove it then leave it out of your blog cuz you are stating lies with those numbers. I never see what you see on a daily basis. You need to change your words too. Get rid of ALL MANY MOST and any percentage when refering to black men. You are liberal and I understand that. The only thing that can keep a liberal going is something negative and since you cant prove any of your numbers or tell me whats goin on in my town what use is it that you would want to even publish this nonsense. I am glad I have a nubian queen I can love everyday as a bm. Hell if yall want to email me here: the_man_exist1@yahoo.com
anonymous @ 3:22 said
"Yes, but setting up your friend and staging a fake kiss for publicity seems offensive, so I don't know.
I don't think an actor should be able to ride to success and keep himself there using his supposed love of Black women."
On this count, I agree; it was awful for Foxx to do that. I do consider this type of thing a ruse to keep fans interested. I know that I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of dating/marrying these guys, so their mates don't matter to me; it doesn't kill the fantasy for me. That's what these shenanigans are all about.
On a "community" level, they aren't leaving me - I can't fault them if I too don't wish to date my race. I will not penalize them as I think I should not be penalized. I advocate loving across all racial lines, so if they are practicing what I preach, more power to them. If they cannot embrace their own preferences, then that is a character issue. Again, the situation changes when people are hateful and insult groups.
Ndel's World
You'd better add Jet magazine with Ebony and Essence as well. I thumbed through Jet for the first time in years and guess what I saw, a picture of Tiger Woods and his wife and new baby. I wonder how many pictures of well-known black women are ever photographed with their non-black spouses and children. Why are bm/ww relationships so easy to display in magazines like Ebony and Essence which are actually geared toward black women but bw/wm relationships are not?! Ebony and Essence-garbage/poison. Jet is garbage/poison too.
"Yes, but setting up your friend and staging a fake kiss for publicity seems offensive, so I don't know.
I don't think an actor should be able to ride to success and keep himself there using his supposed love of Black women. To me it's not the same as a gay actor somehow."
I feel you, I too find it distasteful that he was using Megan Goode in this way. But in all fairness, Jamie's success is not due to his supposed love of Black women. He is an excellent actor, a very funny comedian, and he can sing too.
"Re Jamie Foxx, this is the type of bm who Pearl Jr ('Black Women Need Love Too')says we should throw away and not spend a cent supporting anything he does. Her position is that bw should not help to make ANY bm rich just to watch him set a nonblack woman up in a life of comfort, ease, and luxury--while most sistas are struggling and stressed to the max."
Evia, I feel you too. However, I can't automatically boycott a celebrity just because he might marry a non-black woman. If he still gives jobs to Black women and supports other Black women in being successful, I really don't care too much about his personal bedding preferences.
For a long time, I had major issues with Prince, because I hardly ever saw a brown-skinned sista in any of his movies or videos. It didn't matter to me that he was super talented and a musical genius, he so alienated me, I didn't buy any of his music. I understand that in later years, he has become more inclusive, so yeah, I am more inclined now to buy his music, lol.
" But in all fairness, Jamie's success is not due to his supposed love of Black women. He is an excellent actor, a very funny comedian, and he can sing too."
True, so he doesn't need these charades. Why engage in them?
I actually agree that sometimes our instincts and wits can get corrupted that they lead us astray. i think this often occurs when they have been warped by the manipulation of others and when we havent trusted them for quite a while so much so, we forget how to read what they are trying to communicate.
tuning them back/reprogramming ourselves is a good idea.
shavonne you are right on!
I have always wondered why jet has felt the need to have that bm-ww picture section almost as standard with every issue and never show the opposite as far as i know. Maybe this is all about making bm feel they are unniversaly attractive and thus giving them something to glory in!
TO:
Anonymous said...
Hey my name is Jay.
Dude don't be hostile with us because you don't see any ir in your hick southern town. "Mr. I'm a Statistitian" should know that his town doesn't reflect the rest of America.
I live in California and I'm surrounded by all kind of IR.
And there's nothing wrong with women having a safe place to voice their opinion from their life experience in their own way. They can say many, most etc. if that's been their experience.
For those who dont want to 'sponsor' bm with non-black SO, its your money so feel very free to spend it as you see fit.
This is one of the reasons why bw are ignored or shown less favourably in mainstream then ww, because there is the recognition and understanding that you do not piss on the folks that line your pockets.
White marketing realises this key fact, and panders to ww, ensuring that they feel that they are the most beautiful and sought after women, to maintain their custom.
I think Taye Diggs made a statment that one of his TV soaps was cancelled because bw turned away from him as a result of his choice of partner, i think many bm are beginning to fear the same 'fate' hence all the fronting going on from Jamie to Terrence.
While i am not totally enamoured by the idea of bm being 'forced' against their will to prefer bw, i am happy that they are beginning to excercise caution were bw are concerned. It used to be the case that they could 'Sh*t' on us and still cash our cheques at the end of the week!
Go get em jacques
Evia, I feel you too. However, I can't automatically boycott a celebrity just because he might marry a non-black woman. If he still gives jobs to Black women and supports other Black women in being successful, I really don't care too much about his personal bedding preferences.
I, personally don't know how many jobs or how much support any rich bm--who dates or marries out--provides to black folks. To be fair, there are some wealthy, influential bm who date/marry black women and are anti black interests.
The critical question to answer is this: Is there is any such thing as a "black community?" That's the KEY question. If not, then every single one of us needs to just go for SELF and forget about something that doesn't exist. This means that it's stupid for any bw to be trying to sacrifice for and save something that doesn't exist,as we know many sistas are doing or trying to do.
However, if there IS a "black community," that enough black folks want to preserve, then certain things that some black people do are very definitely dooming that community. You absolutely can't sit on the fence about this.
If a disproportionate number of wealthy or influential or elite or well-educated or well-employed or skill-rich, etc. bm choose to marry or exclusively date nonblack women and put those women on the pedestal as their queens, then this very definitely sends a signal to millions of other bm that this is the thing to do. It doesn't matter what jobs they create for a few black people because the damage to the general community will greatly exceed the good they do. Millions of black males in this country and around the world look up to Jamie Foxx and hi-profile bm like him. He is among their role models. They will definitely do or try to do what he and other wealthy black, hi-profile men do.
All of this has an impact on the 70% single figure for bw because EVERYTHING is connected and some things are much more closely connected than others, as in this case. This means that the 70% single figure for bw will continue to increase--unless sistas find a totally new source of men for marriage--which has been my position all along. My eyes have been open for years about this.
If you've read much black history
and black literature re black people in the Diaspora, you quickly see that bm, as a group, have always subscribed to colorism BIGTIME. A large segment of bm have always preferred bw who look more white because bm tend to want whatever they see that wm have. Black men have selected out light-bright-white women for hundreds of years whenever they could. And now that they can do it freely, then many of the ones who can do so, are going to do it whole hog.
So, it's very obvious what's happening. Some wealthy and regular bm who discriminate against bw do want the bc to exist so that they can run to it for support and safety (like OJ, Kobe, etc.)and in order to have a large number of bw to sex when things don't work out in their other relationships.
No other "community" would tolerate their wealthiest men abandoning it, and still support them in any way because the community helped them to get the wealth. This is one of the MAIN reasons why some prominent wm who love and prefer bw do not date or marry bw. They KNOW that the door of the white community, in general, would slam in their faces and be sealed shut.
Other communities don't tend to give away passes like that to folks who are dooming them.
Anonymous said...
I can't automatically boycott a celebrity just because he might marry a non-black woman. If he still gives jobs to Black women and supports other Black women in being successful, I really don't care too much about his personal bedding preferences.
I tend to agree. If I boycott him for marrying a non-black woman, would it be fair to then boycott me for marrying a non-black man? I think that response assumes that anyone who marries interracially is a "race-traitor" and that's neither true nor fair.
If I boycott someone, it's going to be because they act against the interests of BW, not based solely on the fact that they happen to love a non-BW. That may be proof that they hate BW, but it may not be.
Add singer John Legend and NFL star Reggie Bush to the list too LOL. Hell, to be honest, we would be hard pressed to find many black males in the public eye who prefer black women.
Also, I believe that Jamie's daughter is biracial. If her mom is not white, then she can defintely 'pass'.
I dig what everyone is saying here with regards to boycotting celebs with non-black spouse. I see it both ones. On the one hand, having a bm having a non-black spouse in and out itself does not make him a sell-out and a hater of all bw. But on the other, it is one of the top 3 signs.
I lean more towards Evia's way of thinking. BW (70%) and the so-called "black community" are in too a precarious position to silently support this mess no matter what the bm motivation. These high irr rates among bm "elites" says something to the so called "black community" and to the world.
As Evia so eloquently stated: "It doesn't matter what jobs they create for a few black people because the damage to the general community will greatly exceed the good they do. Millions of black males in this country and around the world look up to Jamie Foxx and hi-profile bm like him. He is among their role models. They will definitely do or try to do what he and other wealthy black, hi-profile men do."
This is not just about appearance but wealth building. The vast majority of bi-racial children raised by bm/ww couples turn around and marry white/non-black. For instance, a heard of a recent black multi-millionaire who had made a fortune in the frozen food industry. He was married to an asian lady (philipino), whom he had several children with. All the kids married white. Upon his death all that money passed to his asian widow and mixed kids. The wife has used that money to benefit the lives of poor folks living in the philippines. I believe she is helping to build a hospital and medical school there. Those millions are gone from the community for good and will most likely never better any black people's lives.
Look at the situation I illustrated above as opposed to Bill and Camille Cosby who give millions to historically black colleges and universities and give tons of $$ to other black causes.
Anon said: "If I boycott him for marrying a non-black woman, would it be fair to then boycott me for marrying a non-black man? I think that response assumes that anyone who marries interracially is a "race-traitor" and that's neither true nor fair."
I see your point Anon. It is logical and makes sense. But we as bw are living in life and death times - logic be damned. When we are at a 70% never gonna marry rate, THIS IS WAR. BM do not fall "in love" outside of social, political, economic realities. Why is it that as a BM's economic earnings, social status and political clout rises that he is even more likely to have a non-black partner? Why is it that the vast majority of professional bm - doctors, lawyers, CEO's, etc., have non-black partners? Why is it that every single bw I talk to who lives in California, Minnesota or Washington state (Seattle) says that bm don't even look in their direction. Love for these DBR bm is a conscious decision. DBR BM do not ‘fall’ into it. That is a load of crap. DBR BM consciously chose a non-white person. There are no coincidences.
The enemy has been using guerilla tactics for decades, we have to be prepared to do the same. We just have to accept the fact that there will be some innocent civilans caught in the crossfire. In short, there will always be collateral damage but we cannot continue to go up against an army with a handgun with only 2 bullets in the chamber. I am even starting to hear light skin women (DBR preference) complain that they are getting stepped over for latina and white women.
Also add Jaheim to the list of boycotts. It appears that sistas ain't taking it no more and he is feeling the effects of his statement in his wallet - where it counts. To quote an article:
"Many African Americans women are not happy with Jaheim and plan to make him suffer ever since he expressed in the April 2006 Vibe Magazine Issue that he prefers Latino women to sistas because “They (Latina’s) don’t know who he is”. the implication is that “Latinas want him for him and not his money.There is now a talk of a silent Boycott of Jaheim by African American women who are responsible for his fame, fortune and close to half of his record sales on his first album. JAHEIM may soon regret the remarks he made in his feature called Rising Son."
Good for sistas. I still reel everyone time bw are called gold-diggers though. If we are such avid gold-diggers we sure ain't got s*^$ to show for it because we are more then likely the poorest race of women in the world and most times brothas ain't got no damn gold. And when they do have some gold, they are all too happy to let some women of a different race mine it.
-Prettyislandgirl
Every adult individual on this planet must come to terms with the fact that to a great extent, we control our own destiny. Black women must come to terms with the fact that for whatever reason, pickings are slim amongst Black men. I agree with the writer when she says "Mourn the Black Prince" but then you need to get up, look up and face the reality of the dating and marriage scene as it applies to Black women right now. It cannot be stressed enough. If Black women are going to consistently date and have a larger opportunity to marry and have children within the context of a marriage, we must expand our options and consider dating men of other races.
Carmin Wharton, The Relationship Teacher
Author, "Lessons Learned: While Looking for Love in All the Wrong Faces"
http://www.carminwharton.com
here's an interesting post from a bm friend of mine. Parts of it could be relavent to us...
http://hochmaumusar.blogspot.com/
my favorite quote:"I personally could never understand why it seemed like the guys I knew who played around always had dates. It seemed like no matter what directions their reputation went there were always women who wanted them. It seemed that these types of men were encouraged by women who were attracted too them. How else..."
It's funny...I used to have discussions like how "when bm get money, they move up and marry ww." It seems even more that way now than when I attended/left high school, 10 years ago. I was noticing this then, as a teenager!
And now, we have a 70% singleness rate! I was surprised, to say the least. If other women are their preference(s), who am I to stop them? I wouldn't be reading this blog if I didn't think any differently.
Halima, I really like your blog. Keep up the good work!
I definitely acknowledge that many, if not most, BM who marry non-black do so at least in part for discriminatory reasons that are not shared by most BW who marry non-black, so giving them both the same benefit of the doubt all the time may not be reasonable.
I just can't help feeling that even if those men are acting in a discriminatory manner, the only way that they are taking something from us is if they are our only option--and they aren't. We are at 70% singleness not only because of the rising tide of DBRBM and their tendency to marry out, but because we have CHOSEN to restrict our options to such men, even in our choices of entertainment.
I can't automatically boycott a celebrity just because he might marry a non-black woman. If he still gives jobs to Black women and supports other Black women in being successful, I really don't care too much about his personal bedding preferences.
I tend to agree with this. For those of us who date IR because of preference not the shortage of quality black men, it seems hypocritical to chastise bms who date IR.
However, when I see and hear stories like Jamie, Taye, Tiger, and others it just underscores how silly it is for so many of us to be waiting around for the "black prince"...many of them could give a rat's arse about us and I find the blind devotion so many black women have towards black men not just self-destructive but delusional.
@ Jay...you can't be serious...rather than trying to police this blog start your own. Or better yet, go pamper your nubian queen and cross your fingers that she doesn't start reading blogs like this and wake up.
Halima, I think you are referring to Taye Diggs and his failed TV show Day Break. Prior to Day Break he had a show called Kevin Hill where he played a ladies man attorney who suddenly had to care for his cousin’s child. The baby started out as a dark-skinned infant and then she was switched for a light-skinned one. That got some viewers angry but I don't know if that was the reason for the show's demise. The Kevin Hill character almost exclusively dated biracial black women and white women.
Fast forward to Day Break, this show unlike KH, was not featured on a network that catered to the AA demographic. This was featured on a major television station that caters to the white majority. His character had a non-bw love interest. It failed in the ratings and was cancelled. Diggs was very bitter about the show's demise. In one interview he was very close to blaming bw for the show's failure, he said it's not okay for bm to be featured with non-bw because people=blacks, have a problem with it.
What I find ironic is how Diggs felt he could criticize the bc for Day Break's failure when in reality blacks couldn't have saved the show even if they tried. If he wants to gets mad, get upset at the white folks who didn't want to see him on their TV sets as a black male lead in a prime time television show. It could also just be they thought the show sucked-wouldn’t matter if the main guy was white. Of course he won't officially criticize whites because he would have to find another profession.
Another thing that bothers me about the subject of Diggs was when he and his wife Idina were receiving death threats while she was on NYC's Broadway's musical Wicked. The media revealed the contents of the letter; the person was angry that Diggs married a white woman and felt he should be castrated as punishment. From what I read, I knew most likely a wm wrote the letter, but everyone initially assumed a jealous, bitter BW was the culprit. I had to laugh because I knew it wasn't true. Later on the FBI's and NYPD's findings showed that a wm wrote it. By that time I felt BW's name (once again) was tarnished w/o just cause.
We all agree that it is practical to have a broad outlook when seeking a mate. BW have to take small but definite steps NOW towards that goal.
I think it starts with countering any negative internal dialogue that may hold you back, alone and discontented.
Counter this daily and as often during the day as needed! Sometimes it may require verbal repudiation of yet another outrageous representation of some untested concept, touted as fact by some charlatan in the media.
I am very sympathetic that with all the brainwashing, many of us BW, beautiful as we are, do not embrace our uniqueness and beauty.
My parents always told me I was wonderful even in my gawky teenage years so I grew up relatively confident in my looks and self. They also taught me that only God's and my opinion really mattered. This has helped me tremendously over the years.
Yes, I was fortunate, I agree, BUT for those of us who were not so fortunate, I think that as adults we are still largely able to forge our destinies through determination, fortitude and spiritual awareness.
It is key to start NOW, today!
It is incumbent upon you to ignore the rumblings of naysayers, SHUT OUT the media and its complete paucity of positive coverage of us, BW, and single mindedly pursue the goal of finding a WORTHWHILE companion. It seems that he will probably be NON-BLACK- at least judging from the stats, available evidence, my own humble experience and general anecdotal conclusions.
We need to embrace this possibility and work towards self actualization and personal fulfillment.
Best wishes to all.
I am surprised BW boycotted Jaheim. It's about time. I swear BW are the only group who financially support people who have utter contempt for them.
I think it was Evia who made the point that some economically powerful white men will suppress their natural inclination toward black women to protect themselves from becoming social pariahs in their communities. There is a rumor about Ashton Kutcher that he really loves BW but didn't act on it for fear of reprisal. I don't know if this is true or not.
Some white men use BW to elevate their careers. Justin Timberlake is a perfect example. He can get on shows like 106th & Park and lie about how he's into the sistas when in reality he's not sexually attracted to BW at all. His dating preferences reveal this and that's fine, but don't lie about it to get record sales. Robin Thicke said that he didn't mind being compared to Timberlake, but he said there was one thing that clearly made him different than Justin.
"I married a black woman." His own words. LOL!
Leila Arcieri was Jaime Foxx's last girlfriend I think. She is a product of a wm/bw relationship.
People tend to make assumptions about the mother of his 12 year old daughter because she has light skin.
That is, he daughter has light skin. The mother seems to be a secret.
This is not just about appearance but wealth building. The vast majority of bi-racial children raised by bm/ww couples turn around and marry white/non-black. For instance, a heard of a recent black multi-millionaire who had made a fortune in the frozen food industry. He was married to an asian lady (philipino), whom he had several children with. All the kids married white. Upon his death all that money passed to his asian widow and mixed kids. The wife has used that money to benefit the lives of poor folks living in the philippines. I believe she is helping to build a hospital and medical school there. Those millions are gone from the community for good and will most likely never better any black people's lives.
Thank you!! Numerous black people have no idea of the importance of money in this whole equation. This AA man's name was Reginald Lewis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Lewis
He was a billionaire and left his fortune to his Asian wife. In terms of his financial power, he was the equivalent of Bill Gates. He was to AA people as Bill Gates is to white people. Can you imagine Bill Gates leaving his fortune to a black wife?
So many black people have next to no knowledge when it come to money and the power of it or the power that it could be used to acquire IF that money is concentrated and used in a certain way. (smh) Also, many AA men who marry out are men who have financial and/or intellectual resources that the AA community knocked down doors for them to have the opportunity to get. These men wouldn't get far in other communities if they try to go in empty-handed.
This is why the KEY question is whether there is a "black community" that most enough AA people feel is worth presevering.
Then the question becomes whose possibly false perceptions we should trust: yours, or our own?
That's why we have studies, research, polls, etc.
Phoenix Sun said: "Fast forward to Day Break, this show unlike KH, was not featured on a network that catered to the AA demographic. This was featured on a major television station that caters to the white majority. His character had a non-bw love interest. It failed in the ratings and was cancelled. Diggs was very bitter about the show's demise."
What bothered me more then the race of Diggs' mate on DayBreak was the race (or lack thereof) of the woman they cast to play his biological sistas. They cast a bi-racial women just a stone throws away from passing. She looked more Spanish then anything else. That is when I highly suspected that Taye must have had something to do with the casting on all his shows because it was too much of a damn pattern. And he was a producer on both the UPN show and the DayBreak debacle.
Check out her pic: http://www.imdb.com/gallery/hh/0325707/HH/0325707/iid_1314893.jpg.html?hint=nm0325707
I mean really look at Taye Diggs and look at her, they don't even look like they are from the same race let alone have been born from the same parents. Fast forward a couple a year or so later and Taye is once again on a TV show (Grey Anatomy spin off) were he is playing opposite what else - a nonblack woman. They all know who they can throw stones out with no fear of reprisal. That is why they always point the finger at BW.
I remember the time when it was mentioned that Taye Diggs & his wife were getting death threats. But it wasn't only him, it was a lot of black men in the sports and entertainment industry with white wives/girlfriends too like Tiger Woods, Jason Taylor and such. Everyone was pointing the finger at 'bitter jealous bw', but lo and behold it was a racist wm.
I knew it had to be a wm man because a sister would go broke buying stamps to send threatening letters to the thousands upon thousand of bm married to non-black women in entertainment.
On a sidenote, since we are in a way talking about entertainment, why is it that on a show like Grey's Anatomy, which is producer, written by a bw, where there are irr flying left and right, yet there are no bw on there in irr. The only sista on there, who I do love and think is a great actress, but she still fits the stereotype of the anger, overweight, not a sexual bombshell type with seemingly no life outside work. That is why I stopped watching that mess. As far as I can see all the bm are with non-black women (less one because Isaish was fired) on there, but I haven't watched it after the first season.
-Prettyislandgirl
I tend to agree. If I boycott him for marrying a non-black woman, would it be fair to then boycott me for marrying a non-black man? I think that response assumes that anyone who marries interracially is a "race-traitor" and that's neither true nor fair.
Actually, the disproportionate number of resource-rich bm who marry out is very different than that of some bw who marry out. Aside from the numbers, many AA men marry out at a time when there is a SURPLUS of high quality AA women all around them. These men are very clearly discriminating against those women. Typically, high quality bw do NOT discriminate against high quality bm.
You folks have mentioned so many salient points here that i dont even know where to start to respond!
Pretty Island that post hit all the right spots for me!
I have always said that when sisters decided that ‘enough is enough’, folks better watch out because the ground will shake!
Its just the same on the African continent, the men know they can push the women just so far before the viper strikes!
I get the feeling that bw have had enough and the ground will soon start to rumble.. All those who have scorned us and laughed in our face will soon know what for...
Anonymous said...
Then the question becomes whose possibly false perceptions we should trust: yours, or our own?
That's why we have studies, research, polls, etc.
Which are all subject to interpretation, i.e., perception.
Evia
Actually, the disproportionate number of resource-rich bm who marry out is very different than that of some bw who marry out. Aside from the numbers, many AA men marry out at a time when there is a SURPLUS of high quality AA women all around them. These men are very clearly discriminating against those women. Typically, high quality bw do NOT discriminate against high quality bm.
Indeed evia, I think some bw suffer from a need to be fair and apply consistency and justice when the sitaution actually demands a case by case approach!
This is a thing of 'conscience' for many bw and its hard one to touch with them!
Evia said: "Can you imagine Bill Gates leaving his fortune to a black wife?"
Nope, but he is giving his money to benefit a lot of black people, both here and abroad. He supports giving computers and $$$ to inner city schools.
Did you know the CEO and current Chairman of Fannie Mae, Franklin D. Raines, the 1st AA bm to be CEO of a fortune 500, company is also married to a ww?
-Prettyislandgirl
Hi all,
I am sooo disappointed reading all the negative things on here that bm say and think about us bw! Don't get me wrong, I know it's really not news because it all leads back to self-loathing. But, it's just so alarming that in this day and age they still think so harshly about us. Like they don't have black mothers. :-(
I thought Wesley Snipes, who is probably all of 5'2", (Napoleonic complex) was married to an Asian woman?
I like the established "old stars" like Morgan Freeman, Samuel L. Jackson and Denzel who have black wives and more class than Snipes on any given day.
You have to wonder what types of homes these men come from and what their fathers (if they were around) were modeling about women. Dennis Rodman, who is one of the most unattractive people black or white that I've ever seen, had the audacity to say that he doesn't date back women because when he was growing up they wouldn't date him. Hence, his preference for only ww now. Yeah, like they'd even spit on him if he didn't have money. Big jerk! These bm make me wanna puke.
Give up the good work ladies. Your "white knight" is out there as is mine.
many AA men marry out at a time when there is a SURPLUS of high quality AA women all around them.
And your bases for the notion that there is a surplus of high quality AA women is...?
I think there are some DBR BM that should not be supported and/or boycotted. Maybe not for their preferences or choices in partners but because they are plagues on the "community" (quotes for a reason) and their influence is negative, Ice T, Flavor Flave, and P Diddy come to mind. I also think that men who purposely use or disparage BW need to be held accountable too (Foxx, Timberlake). Jamie Foxx even admitted to Howard Stern on his show that dating non-black women could be bad for his career. This was after Stern point blank asked him if he would start dating WW now that he achieving some success. Okay, that should tell you something.
As for Rodman, I’ve always wondered what his mother and 2 sisters say about his comments about BW. Rodman also has little respect for his father who abandoned the family when he was young. Rodman also has a history of abusing his wives and girlfriends and is slowly going broke- so I guess no woman wants him now. He may be a big jerk, but he’s no loss.
Halima said: "Indeed evia, I think some bw suffer from a need to be fair and apply consistency and justice when the sitaution actually demands a case by case approach!"
Fair is as fair does. I say to these sistas - where is the fairness in a 70% never marry rate? Where is the fairness in being attractive having a PHD but being passed over for a semi-literate white waitress (I am looking at you OJ) or a latina who is a high school dropout (I am looking at you Kobe)?
I say we don't even have the time or the luxury to analyze DBR BM on a case by case basis. We don't even have time to be fair! I think the situation is so very dire that we should adopt a shoot first and ask questions later approach. I mean can we really afford to sit around and analyze whether such and such a bm is with becky because of love or self-hate??
Call me unfair, call me a hypocrite but from my experiences, I don’t trust Black men who lay with non-Black women because I know somewhere in his heart he hates me and his Blackness, but is too ashamed to admit it. There are exceptions I am sure, but I haven't met any of them. Frankly, I think we need to stop focusing so much on these unions and handle our business. I honestly believe black men/white women relish the idea of black women hurting and pining over this issue and adore the "attention" because same race couples don't get nearly as much attention as irr ones.
Halima has also said: "I get the feeling that bw have had enough and the ground will soon start to rumble.. All those who have scorned us and laughed in our face will soon know what for..."
Yeah I am getting that vibe too. The constant barrage of high profile bm with non-black women, all the non-black women featured prominently in bm magazines, the constant comparison to non-black women with bw always charactized as coming up very short, the constant denigration, etc. People can only be pushed but so far. We are just under a state of constant attack from all sides and from men we thought should be our protectors. Every aspect of our being (facial features, hair, skin) is seen as less than except our asses. What I find most offensive is when DBR bm talk s&^$ about bm around non-black people. Enough is enough.
Anon said: "Jamie Foxx even admitted to Howard Stern on his show that dating non-black women could be bad for his career. This was after Stern point blank asked him if he would start dating WW now that he achieving some success. Okay, that should tell you something."
I hate Howard Stern, but he does call 'em like he seems them. I remember half watching a show of his on TV when it was on E! Anyway, his guest was Martin Lawrence. Howard was asking Martin if his wife was black or white - Martin answered black, of course. Howard came back with I bet she is one of those light skin almost white women because "I Know how you black guys are". All Martin could do was sit there and giggle because what Howard said was true. At the time he was married to the woman who is currently married to Emmitt Smith. she is fair skinned, hazel eyed with long hair.
"Black women didn't accept me when I was younger. I wasn't attractive. I didn't have money or fancy clothes. I wasn't whatever it was they wanted.
"Now, though, I'm okay. Now that I have some money, some fame, the story has changed. Some of those same Black women who wouldn't talk to me years ago were rushing through the doors of my mother's house asking, `Where's your son? How's your son doing?'" - Dennis Rodman
jay wrote: "If you cant prove it then leave it out of your blog cuz you are stating lies with those numbers. I never see what you see on a daily basis."
i hope i dont have to explain why jay proved his idiocy with this statement. just because you dont see it in your community doesnt mean that it isnt true or doesnt exist else where (and in words that jay SHOULD understand-- look at the demographics of the population within your sample space). geez, im having a really hard time believing that he majored in statistics. thats equivalent to a wealthy person who surrounds him/herself around like individuals denouncing the fact that the majority of americans are living in poverty!! they walk around their communities and assume that there is no such thing as poverty because they dont see it. wake up brother!!
"a BW and math major"
"Black women didn't accept me when I was younger. I wasn't attractive. I didn't have money or fancy clothes. I wasn't whatever it was they wanted.
"Now, though, I'm okay. Now that I have some money, some fame, the story has changed. Some of those same Black women who wouldn't talk to me years ago were rushing through the doors of my mother's house asking, `Where's your son? How's your son doing?'" - Dennis Rodman "
..................................
Ok, but honestly does he think that white or other non-black women would have reacted differently? He just wasn't around them then.
anon wrote: "And your bases for the notion that there is a surplus of high quality AA women is...?"
sorry to butt in bbuutt its the basic fact that there is a higher number of BW graduating from college than BM and more seek terminal degrees than BM... a simple google search can show you that
""Black women didn't accept me when I was younger. I wasn't attractive. I didn't have money or fancy clothes. I wasn't whatever it was they wanted.
"Now, though, I'm okay. Now that I have some money, some fame, the story has changed. Some of those same Black women who wouldn't talk to me years ago were rushing through the doors of my mother's house asking, `Where's your son? How's your son doing?'" - Dennis Rodman"
This lie has to stop. Who were they going for? The foxes and they got shut down? Was Dennis Rodman trying to date an average looking black woman? Or even an heavy one? Was Dennis trying to date someone who was honestly on his level appearance wise? The single sister with a child who is trying to do better?
These men act like bw shouldn't look for any sort of proof that they are trying to do better because he has "potential." Nothing to show, but he has "potential." Just wait it out. Even if that means x amount of years.
Honestly, nothing can be done because you are supposed to be so understanding, not question any suspicious behavior and and are expected to go along with low standards.
Like our communities are really surrounded by a bunch of promising Steve Urkels. That's why everyone is wasting their time defending violemt fools who were supposed to be "the future."
How do bm go from "we are bombarded with these images every day and we are brainwashed. we are taking revenge on the white man or sleeping with massa's daughter" to "you are a b$$$tch" and that is why I am with them.
It's the same old crap. A: White man made me do it. B: Black woman made me do it.
They are NOT telling the truth and this is misleading. This is the type of stuff that helps black women make poor decisions. Heaven forbid that the relationship sour because we are supposed to be the ones who shouldn't have been with the bum in the first place.
It's like when they are with someone who isn't black, they are actually sorry for their poor standards but with us its like "shut up, you know how hard I have it."
Look at Mr. Rodman's behavior. Should I honestly believe he was some kind shunned nerd who is now lashing out at bw and the world?
Living around the LA area and being a huge Lakers fan, please do not even get me started on that bogus Kobe Bryant! Not only was Vanessa, his wife, a high school drop out at 17, but she was also a "video ho", an extra on a video set when he met her. She had the reputation of hanging out on these sets and "catching" the rappers. She had been around the block a few times, believe me.
It makes me madder than hell the times I used to defend his ignorant behind BEFORE he married that. His father tried to tell him to get a pre-nup because everyone in LA knew he was going to get a fat contract from the Lakers. But, oh no! Why? Well, maybe the fact that he paid off 500 hundred thousand dollars worth of debt for his mother-in-law and set Vanessa up in a jewelry business for starters! Another OJ, for sure. Taking care of all his non-black in-laws, something they'd NEVER do for black ones.
Then, Kobe goes and adds insult to injury by having sex with a little white tramp hotel clerk in Colorado in one of the whitest towns there. This, after his wife had just had their first child. So he had to go ahead and pay her because that's all she wanted in the first place Yeah, he's a real prize alright.
Now, he can't leave Vanessa even if his dumb ass wanted to because she'll get Raoul Felder or some other big gun and break him! Too bad, so sad. His family tried to warn him. He reportedly was dating Brandy before he got too full of himself. I supopse she wasn't subservient enough for him because she had her own money and career. I hope one day she does leave him and end up with a settlement like Juanita Jordan. She was awarded 150 million dollars! That's 150 million less Jordan can spend on gambling and white hookers.
sorry to butt in bbuutt its the basic fact that there is a higher number of BW graduating from college than BM and more seek terminal degrees than BM... a simple google search can show you that
So the basis for being quality is a college degree? All people who don't have college degrees are non quality people right? That strikes Bill Gates.
It's kind of silly to try to quantify quality don't you think?
^^^this is used to undermine what bw have worked for and are proud of.
This poster may go into some speel about women needing to being loving and nuturing and stuff.
Like bw really aren't going to love their children, husbands, cook, keep the house clean and sacrifice.
How can bm question bw's ability to do these things? It makes no sense.
"So the basis for being quality is a college degree? All people who don't have college degrees are non quality people right? That strikes Bill Gates.
It's kind of silly to try to quantify quality don't you think?"
oh no, here comes the advice that a BW with a PH.D should marry the garbage man. right? LOL
^^^this is used to undermine what bw have worked for and are proud of.
This poster may go into some speel about women needing to being loving and nuturing and stuff.
Like bw really aren't going to love their children, husbands, cook, keep the house clean and sacrifice.
How can bm question bw's ability to do these things? It makes no sense.
Normal black men - and men in general - DON'T question black women's ability to do these things.
Only damaged beyond repair black men do.
Never compare a DBRBM with a normal high functioning man who has the ability to think, non stereotype and reason.
The two are as different as apples and oranges.
"An abundance of women here seem to be from either California or the New York area. I live in the South and I rarely see IR. So the point is that your individual experiences don't reflect the nation as a whole."
I am a bw from the south and I CAN assure you, from my personal observations, that irr with bm/ww is an epidemic--not only in the city I live, but throughout the region.
I don't know why SOME people are trying to "pretend" like bw are living in some alternate reality where we have nothing to complain about.
pinky
NOTE TO THE TROLLS
I AM ON DUTY!!!!
Pinky
this is part of what i blogged about in the past 'folk trying to confuse bw, instinct, compass etc' so that we become totally disoriented and think red is green and blue is yellow!
They have managed to get us to suspend action till 70% singleness! and they will continue to push their luck as far as we will let them.
sisters dont let them play you all for fools.
Even Howard stern has seen what we refused to see. We have only our selves to blame if we let them hoodwink us further!
I feel like a natural FOOL. Several months ago, I became "friends" (ugh..she stabbed me in the back later..so not really) anyhooooo.. with a ww and we decided to join EHarmony together to search for mates.
Little did I know, her "preference" was for bm. At the time, I was "cool" with that, because I became comfortably numb to bm/ww relationships years ago (seeing them everyday helps in that respect.)
Things quickly fell apart when this ww began "explaining" to me, how this bm was "trading up" / "coming up" in the world now that he was with her, because she's white.
I also had to hear the details of his "attraction" to her. As in, since he was part-fill in the blank-Indian, French, black, smurf...blah, blah, blah--he had a preference for the same "soft" hair and "fair" skin in his women that he has.
pinky
Pinky
oh no, here comes the advice that a BW with a PH.D should marry the garbage man. right? LOL
Actually I'm saying that a BLACK MAN with a PH.D will marry an uneducated black woman of high character before he marries an educated one of poor character. Thus black men and men in general don't equate education with quality as a wife.
So the basis for being quality is a college degree?
No, the baseline, minimal standard for being "quality" is the ability to survive: feed, clothe and shelter yourself without resorting to victimizing or preying others, and by functioning independently in society. By this very, very minimal standard, there are substantially more BW of "quality" than BM.
Normal black men - and men in general - DON'T question black women's ability to do these things.
Very few black men question black women's ability to do these things. What is questioned is the willingness.
A black woman interested in (or already involved in) an interracial relationship DOES NOT CARE (or shouldn't) whether black men question black women's ability or willingness to love their children, husbands, cook, keep the house clean and sacrifice.
Why would she? Whatever black men think one way or another has nothing to do with her in reality.
Mekare (and ladies in general) for the simple fact that you're here at Black Women's IR Circle, tells me that you desire a relationship leading to marriage with a non colorist, intelligent, and loving White or other non black man.
Focus on THEM instead of what BM (damaged beyond repair and not) think and don't think.
Let these trolls debate amongst themselves.
We tend to attract what we focus most of our attention on.
So focus WISELY ladies.
.....(and ladies in general) for the simple fact that you're here at Black Women's IR Circle, tells me that you desire a relationship leading to marriage with a non colorist, intelligent, and loving White or other non black man.
Focus on THEM instead of what BM (damaged beyond repair and not) think and don't think."
You make an excellent point and one that we all should think seriously on. I was over at Classical One's blog and he stated that even on IR blogs black women mainly discuss black men and he seemed to feel that if not for the "marriage-dating" squeeze many of us would not date WM.
i think as you say, one of the big problems is trolls who throw the discussion off, but also that some need to spend some time critically examining the situation in the Black community.
But your right we need to focus on what we want and on how we can make that a reality.
This is Jay. I never said it didnt exist. You hardly see IR anywhere in ahem my "hick town" which is far from hick. I aint swingin from a tree by a rope. I like that I dont see a sell out every minute of the day...and by the way L.A. is all messed up all together, and thats a sad thing.
Pinky
I feel you and some of your posts. You ww ex-friend sounds like a real jerk.
I do wonder if there is a bc since it seems that all the men have gone.
I am still in wonderment/puzzlement at the hostility.
@ Anon 9:46PM
Thanks for the advice. :) I am taking it slow though. I am not too big on asking a guy out. I would like to draw the guy to me. I have posted before about some of my negative experiences where I have been the aggressor and I think I want to change that around so I am going for a sure things right now and casual flirting to build my esteem back up. But thanks for being kind and looking out. :)
@Miriam
I am sorry we have shared that experience.
I think that I have decided to take the next step (after I get my hair done) LOL and try an online date.
I have wiped the message out of my head that this one will be the one and just look forward to having a good experience. I will target white and possibly asian men to test the waters.
This is so weird and freaky. I have never dated before and I am nervous just thinking about it.
Any tips for weeding out weirdos and losers and anything else are welcome.
No, the baseline, minimal standard for being "quality" is the ability to survive: feed, clothe and shelter yourself without resorting to victimizing or preying others, and by functioning independently in society. By this very, very minimal standard, there are substantially more BW of "quality" than BM.
The sheer number of black women on welfare totally crushes the point you were trying to make.
" We are at 70% singleness not only because of the rising tide of DBRBM and their tendency to marry out, but because we have CHOSEN to restrict our options to such men, even in our choices of entertainment."
Totally agree, especiallly with the bolded. I have not restricted myself to BM only, therefore, I've always had my pick of men and haven't been feeling any shortage of men in my life. I've had marriage proposals from non-BM, and I have been happily married to a WM for almost a decade.
"On a sidenote, since we are in a way talking about entertainment, why is it that on a show like Grey's Anatomy, which is producer, written by a bw, where there are irr flying left and right, yet there are no bw on there in irr. The only sista on there, who I do love and think is a great actress, but she still fits the stereotype of the anger, overweight, not a sexual bombshell type with seemingly no life outside work. That is why I stopped watching that mess. "
I have stopped watching for the exact same reason.
"I hate Howard Stern, but he does call 'em like he seems them. I remember half watching a show of his on TV when it was on E! Anyway, his guest was Martin Lawrence. Howard was asking Martin if his wife was black or white - Martin answered black, of course. Howard came back with I bet she is one of those light skin almost white women because "I Know how you black guys are". All Martin could do was sit there and giggle because what Howard said was true. At the time he was married to the woman who is currently married to Emmitt Smith. she is fair skinned, hazel eyed with long hair."
Yes, Howard Stern can be disgusting, but he usually tells the painful truth.
"Mekare (and ladies in general) for the simple fact that you're here at Black Women's IR Circle, tells me that you desire a relationship leading to marriage with a non colorist, intelligent, and loving White or other non black man.
Focus on THEM instead of what BM (damaged beyond repair and not) think and don't think.
Let these trolls debate amongst themselves.
We tend to attract what we focus most of our attention on.
So focus WISELY ladies."
That's excellent advice right there. Let these trolls debate amongst themselves and let's not dignify them with answers.
Halima:
Permission to ask a question that is not really germane to the topic at hand, but I would like to get the groups input.
I don't want to be one of those who tries to get things off topic, but I think you know by now that I'm not going to pursue some stupid off the wall tangent.
Thanks
"On a sidenote, since we are in a way talking about entertainment, why is it that on a show like Grey's Anatomy, which is producer, written by a bw, where there are irr flying left and right, yet there are no bw on there in irr. The only sista on there, who I do love and think is a great actress, but she still fits the stereotype of the anger, overweight, not a sexual bombshell type with seemingly no life outside work. That is why I stopped watching that mess. "
If you've seen pictures of Chandra Wilson (Dr. Bailey) and Shonda Rhimes (Grey's creator), they have the same short, round body type,and so maybe Rhimes sought out an actress similar to herself as a way to insert herself into the script. I struggle with the Bailey character as well. On the one hand, Bailey seems ideal, in the sense that she has what the other women covet. She's married, has a baby, is higher up on the career ladder than the interns, while the others are mired in drama and dysfunction, but at the same time, I feel that Bailey is not "in the mix" so to speak. She embodies a lot of black female sterotypes: loud, bossy, overweight etc.. She doesn't have any love scenes like the white and Asian actresses, and there's no black female on the show that fills that void. However, I saw the pilot episode of the Grey's spin-off, and the black doctor on that show (Taye's character's ex-wife)was played by an attractive black woman who was being hit on by a white teenage surfer boy. So maybe the dynamic will change, or maybe they'll cast a "sex-object" type black female on Grey's now that Isaiah will no-longer be on the program.
However, I was a little dissappointed with the choice of Alfre Woodard as the new neighbor on Wisteria Lane. She too seemed asexual and alone. Meanwhile, her young son, ran around town with a white girl. Now, at first, I figured that his choice had to do with the fact that there were no young, black females in his environment, but when they did a flashback scene in the location where the black family lived prior to Wisteria, the black son's girlfriend was an Asian, so I'm thinking that his character just had an aversion to women that resembled his mother, or that the writers had an aversion to casting black women in the same lite as the four leads.
- Dinah
Dinah-
Agree with what you're saying about Bailey in GA- I do like her, but she does seem to embody so many stereotypes. We got to see her husband once but that's about it.
Also Understand and agree with what you're saying about AW on desperate housewifes.
Then they quickly wrote her character off the show.
The Grey's spinoff is called Private Practice and here is a clip of that includes some of the IR oriented scenes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKXDVuL3oVE
( how cute is Chris Lowell-the surfer guy!)
They've since recast the BW roll and instead of the actress you see in the above clip, Broadway star Audra Mcdonald will be playing Naomi
this is Audra:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6CAnNy_ILM
Apparently the surfer guy attraction will still be in the plot but "toned down" according to an interview I recently read. So we'll see.
Now that Shonda Rhimes has a very successful show under her belt she should take advantage her clout and unique position as a Black woman actually writing a BF character and not create another Bailey type BW on PrP.
Actually, from what I've read of the characters there'll be a white southern female character to be the "tough, no nonsense" staff member.
I'm hoping that The Naomi character will be seen as desirable as well as strong and competent. Naturally, I would really like the ir plot to remain either with CL/Dell or another guy, but she definitely needs to have a romantic interest at some point. Shonda Rhimes also HAS to be aware of the often negative/odd/shortlived or "forbidden fruit" manner in which many bw/wm romances have been portrayed and should avoid continuing with this type of thing.
I really think any of us who are interested should write letters "supporting" Shonda and let her know our ideas about BW and Bw/WM or XM characterizations on television and what we'd like to see! ;)
"Actually I'm saying that a BLACK MAN with a PH.D will marry an uneducated black woman of high character before he marries an educated one of poor character. Thus black men and men in general don't equate education with quality as a wife."
Obviously not if Tiger Woods married the NANNY and Montel married a STRIPPER, and Kobe married a H.S DROPOUT, oh, and O.J. married a WAITRESS!
Amazing. You are hitting bulls-eye after bulls-eye. NEVER doubt your usefulness to so many of us out here. Even if we are IR (yet), we are happier, healthier, more hopeful, and more available to living a full life WITH a man than we've been in a very long time. Why are WE the only women who are being prepped to be alone? Why is that so okay for us? How DARE all of our detractors; HOW DARE THEY. We support and admire and need you.
^^^ Thanks anon, that was a lovely sentiment!
Aphrodite
just to say we are backing you all the way honey and also all those other bw out there struggling with some inclucated negative perception of themselves. You can be free!
Anonymous said...
No, the baseline, minimal standard for being "quality" is the ability to survive: feed, clothe and shelter yourself without resorting to victimizing or preying others, and by functioning independently in society. By this very, very minimal standard, there are substantially more BW of "quality" than BM.
The sheer number of black women on welfare totally crushes the point you were trying to make.
How, when:
(1) most women on welfare are white?
(2) most black people on welfare are the abandoned children of DBRBM black men, not BW? and
(3) despite all of that, there are still more non-predatory, functional BW of "quality" than BM, which was the question you asked?
Amateur-hour distractions aside, for me the issue is simply I don't much CARE who BM are dating and marrying. I understand the serious issue of resources being drained from the community, but the way I see it, BW like me who marry successful, family-oriented non-BM actually bring resources INTO the community. I'd say the BW who date/marry men like William Cohen and George Lucas more than counterbalance the "loss" of Dennis Rodman and O.J., if only we INCREASE our numbers.
Additionally, even many high-income BM are DBR, and thus do not possess much WEALTH and will not leave much behind for their children and communities. The white-woman-as-luxury good mentality goes hand in hand with their thinking about expensive cars, gaudy jewelry, and showy leased houses: you don't invest in goods, you "floss" them to impress other people and to try in vain to feel better about yourself. Where will Jaheim be in 10 years? Probably the same place as Aaron Hall: broke, being hounded by his sleazy Puerto Rican video ho babymama, who has to put on sex shows for Luke since he can't/won't pay child support. Non-BW are doing us a favor taking these males off our hands, so that we can focus on finding real men and providers for ourselves and our children.
@above
well said! well said
Hi all, I made a short list of stuff that might or might not be useful to bw that I extracted from teachers and experience in the Orth.Jew. world that I'm in...enjoy.
* Dignity. I don't know a better word to translate Sniut. Some people translate this word into Modesty. Basically, we all know what dignity and modesty is. What I picked up was that it spills into the way one dresses, the way one talks, comportment, and of course the behavior. Evia, you basically said it in your blog about speaking a certain way to tell someone off vs speaking a certain other way in other situations.
* The importance of knowledge. I didn't think it was possible but at a very young age i'm teaching the kids blessings to say before eating and their night time prayers. Honestly, I only did it because I was expected to, I didn't think they could get it. But they did! The oldest just turned three last week.
Education, reasoning, memory is stressed alot here. Both for the young and for the old. Nobody's let off the hook, lol.
I remember once I was speaking to a bm, and somehow he had it in his head that not having a lot of money and being uneducated goes hand in hand. But I don't think that is true...especilally w/ so many libraries, internet and info available to the general public to a certain extent.
* here, date number 1 is just to see each partner is physically decently attractive. then the next dates are fun but interspersed with very serious questions (ex. who's going to work? should both work? school? children...etc)
* Diligence. After living in Israel, I came up w/a phrase for myself. its: "at the speed of a jew!" Everything is quickly done, gotten to, finished.
* An old saying, "If i'm not for myself, who will be for me? And if not now, when?"
* Another old saying, "Say little, do much, and receive everyone with a cheerful face"
* Putting color aside. In fact, understanding that I have my own things that make me want to withdraw, feel too "black" or feel too unimportant but I have to just put them all aside. All the baggage.
To anon @ 11:10pm:
Thank you. It just bothers me that people can be so rotten and twist an issue as serious as racism for their own purposes. A lot of black women have been severly mislead....
I know I don't want to deal with any man who uses his race as an excuse to not do something time after time, who never has my bests interests in mind, who will put me through extreme stress, misleads me, doesn't inspire me...it's just not worth it.
I still don't understand why angry bm are at this site. They should be happy to be rid of us.
"Black women simply need to stop caring about who BM date and marry. Period."
I completely agree with the above statement.
The one thing I have noticed on a lot of bw's IR blogs, is that we spend way too much time discussing bm and who they are dating, marrying, what they're doing, etc.
Personally, I would like to see us move away from that and concentrate more on how we can support one another in our decision to be more open to IR relationships.
I only have one caveat though...I do think it is important to keep bw informed of bm who are in politics or other positions of power who do harm to the image of bw. I do not want to "reward" or support bm who denigrate bw (with words, actions or images) with my vote or my money.
I hear you there. BW MUST stop rewarding and supporting degenerate bm who denigrate us, their mothers, sisters, and daughters.
To do anything else is not only the height of stupidity, it's suicidal.
The sheer number of black women on welfare totally crushes the point you were trying to make.
The sheer number of black women that have ALWAYS outnumbered black men in college totally crushes the desperate "point" you were trying to make.
Hell, at least mothers on welfare are in the home unlike DBRBM that left to go and make more babies with no plans to get a job. Funny, they never hear from "men" like you. I guess the white man is stopping you from addressing DBRBM.
Why don't you skip over to Essence or Black Voices and try "dropping knowledge" over there? I bet they'll give a damn.
Obviously not if Tiger Woods married the NANNY and Montel married a STRIPPER, and Kobe married a H.S DROPOUT, oh, and O.J. married a WAITRESS!
Exactly!
And when have you ever heard of a BM corporate executive marrying a Black nanny, stripper, h.s. dropout or waitress?
How many of those guys are hitting on Latisha, the receptionist at his firm that is going to school at night while taking care of her kid(s)?
They pass over the Black women that outnumber them in college (especially the black colleges apprently - see Aimee's blog) and "play the field" until they are ready to get married. And then of course, they can't find a BW "on their level" because "all" black women are "loud" and on "welfare" so he has to go and find a woman that is anything but black.
And then they come to IR sites aimed at Black women to "troll" and lecture with their B.S.
Please..
However, I was a little dissappointed with the choice of Alfre Woodard as the new neighbor on Wisteria Lane. She too seemed asexual and alone. Meanwhile, her young son, ran around town with a white girl.
I was disappointed with that too and I believe that it was done on purpose. The creator of the show is a white gay man and I believe that he did not want a Vanessa Williams, Aisha Tyler, Sanaa Lathan, Gabrielle Union, Garcelle Beauvais, Merrin Dunghey or Michael Michelle - upsetting the apple cart and competing for headlines (and paparrazzi) with Eva Longoria, Teri Hatcher and the rest.
You see, unlike a black man running the show or movie (hello Will Smith (Hitch), Taye Diggs and all of you music video directors out there) this white man purposely moved to protect these white women's status and positions. Thus, he gained their loyalty (and that of the mostly white female audience)
I only have one caveat though...I do think it is important to keep bw informed of bm who are in politics or other positions of power who do harm to the image of bw. I do not want to "reward" or support bm who denigrate bw (with words, actions or images) with my vote or my money.
Unfortunately, sometimes those discussions lead to mentions of who they are dating and marrying, so it's a catch-22.
I think some mention of that will be inevitable, BUT, I agree that we need to concentrate more on ourselves and how to build healthy, solid relationships with non-black men.
Black women simply need to stop caring about who BM date and marry. START concentrating on who they personally are going to date and marry.
I totally agree with this, but many bw will not stop thinking about bm as long as they think there is or can be a "black community." You cannot have a viable or healthy black community without enough viable black men. And let's face it, does anyone here think of the black community as a place where the bulk of the husbands are non black? LOL! NO!
So on a subconcious if not unconscious level, bm and the "black community" go hand-in-hand in the minds of many bw. Not necessarily all of the women here, but I'll bet that some of the sistas here still believe in the mythic "black community" of yesteryear. Even most of the sistas here are heavily influenced by other blacks who believe in that mythic "black community."
A key reason why some bw don't date or marry out is because many of them just don't know how their white date or husband will be viewed by or fit into the "black community." LOL! That's a major challenge that some sistas just don't feel they can handle. All of these things are connected with some sistas fearing that people in the "black community" will call them "sell-outs" and such.
I realize that there is no such thing as a "black community" because a "community" of the type I'm talking about here is made up of healthy, viable, stable families, a network of people who meet each others' needs--not just certain individuals. In a typical "black community," you have many AA's bunched together, many of whom feel trapped, and who, for various reasons (financially, socially, racially, emotionally, etc.) are not there by choice, but because they feel there is no way out.
We need to focus on some of these non-obvious aspects that are holding these sistas prisoner.
One of our sista bloggers, Aimee, wrote a brilliant piece recently where she talked about the significance of the bw's narrative
http://blackgirlshaven.blogspot.com/2007/08/role-of-narrative.html
A big part of that shared narrative for bw consists of SHACKLING thoughts and it's those thoughts that are binding so many AA women as they plunge downward. It's like they're jumping out of planes without parachutes because the narrative is telling them that whatever happens, they'll be okay. (smh) This is why many sistas have no sense of urgency. Many of them feel they'll be okay.
Some keys myths and parts of that narrative are going to have to be shattered and seen as obsolete rubbish before bw can pick themselves up from the dust and just move on.
You see, unlike a black man running the show or movie (hello Will Smith (Hitch), Taye Diggs and all of you music video directors out there) this white man purposely moved to protect these white women's status and positions. Thus, he gained their loyalty (and that of the mostly white female audience)
What about Spike Lee and John Singleton?
Sometimes I'm thankful Hollywood doesn't incorporate bw in their "projects." I mean, do we really want them to depict us in anything --even if it's an IR relationship ?
Case in point--the movie "Slow Burn." The IR relationship depicted involved a ww "passing" as black. Let's ignore that point for the moment though..lol.
Anyhooo..the "bw" was an educated Assistant District Attorney involved in relationship with her white boss..the District Attorney. Long story short, she was only using the wm on orders from her thuggish bm criminal boyfriend. Uhhmmm..yea. Whatever.
I'm supposed to believe that this educated, powerful woman could only be with this wm because she wanted to use him to benefit some thug. Please.
"What about Spike Lee and John Singleton?"
Isn't John Singleton married to Akosua Busia? Here is a wealthy black man in hollywood married to a black woman who is darker than him.
I only have one caveat though...I do think it is important to keep bw informed of bm who are in politics or other positions of power who do harm to the image of bw. I do not want to "reward" or support bm who denigrate bw (with words, actions or images) with my vote or my money.
I agree totally because I think we should be as vicious as possible with ANYONE who harms our image because image is perception and perception becomes reality. We shouldn't EVER support or defend anyone who blanketly denigrates us. Period.
The reason I talk about bm carrying their money off into other communities is because many bw are still on both sides of the fence with this myth of the "black community." If you believe in that myth even just a little bit, it is way beyond foolish to give the green light to anyone who takes the assets that you've helped to kick down doors and helped them to get and say it's okay for them to give those assets to someone else in another community. You will ALWAYS end up emptyhanded or in a less-than position.
My position is that the door MUST swing both ways in any relationship that I invest in, so I'm not giving ANY kind of man a pass who I've helped to build up and then he turns around and pisses on me.
Also, this again is why I think bw must deal with the myth of yesteryear's "black community." I'm just wondering whether sistas have reached the point of feeling unequivocally that it doesn't matter who ANY rich bm marries because we have no obligation to help or support him in getting the money in the first place or of defending him at any point, that he is a free agent and so is each one of us. I think that it usually helps a lot for people to figure out which side of the fence they're on because then they no longer have divided loyalties or split focus and can move ahead in a more singleminded fashion and be more successful in reaching their goal.
avid reader said
Black women simply need to stop caring about who BM date and marry. Period
evia said
A key reason why some bw don't date or marry out is because many of them just don't know how their white date or husband will be viewed by or fit into the "black community."
I totally agree with both of you ladies. And I think if we're totally honest, as a black woman it is usually much harder to bring your white partner into the black "community" (however you define that) than it is for a black man to bring in his non-black partner. So if your social life revolves around primarily black settings you may have to adjust and spend more time in more neutral settings if you date men of other races.
However, even though I have my share of beefs about the quality of black men, I just don't see how talking at length about them, their behavior, who they marry, or anything they're doing will move either us or any black woman sitting on the fence forward.
Also, if I were a non-black man reading some of this I would think that the only reason many sisters are "dating out" is because they can't find a "good" black man. They might be thinking, heck, if a decent black man showed up would this woman dump me like a hot potato?
And really, talking about them keeps them at the center of our lives. I believe as more and more of us show less and less interest in tired bms and their tired ways, they'll either walk away or decide that it might be worth their while to change their tune in order to get our attention.
Don't get me wrong. I am in no way trying to "lure" black men back to us. In many ways I think I'd probably prefer someone non-black regardless. But heck, why shouldn't ALL men, include bms vie for our attention?
Thank you Miriam! My family tradition embraces all of the above and it is a breathe of fresh air to see it here in the midst of the chaos of the troll interjections. It reconfirmed the tactic used by me daily to put it aside. Except for here thoughts of what DBRM/W do or fail to do is not a concern - save for safely navigating past it and limiting the impact- and remembering the teachings of my parents, the lessons learned in life and my reasons for doing what works for me.
It is good for the women here to get past the bitterness and rancor caused by exposure to the DBRM/W but it is more important to move forward and replace and respond to every negative with 3-5 positive life affirming things and/or thoughts. Given the level of negativity that is a full time job - one is liable to wear themselves out striving for 3-5 to balance and cancel out the negative. It however would be a positive worn out and worth the work! Let's make this a place to celebrate and drown out the trolls. Starting now:
Consider this:
1) Despite the negativity still the women here rise above it - striving not just to survive but to thrive and flourish
2) The numbers of women seeing the light is increasing.
3) The pushback is proof that our message is real and is hitting the mark.
4) Women are encouraging each other
5) There are others out there who see and understand and care - people are more the same in good ways that matter than not
6) Women are empowered and embracing their power to change and make changes happen
7) Even the smallest change has a big impact
8) The word is spreading
9) Women are starting to think and critically analyze previously held negative images, thoughts and patterns and making changes
10) Despite the Troll relentless attacks the women here stay on point.
These are 10 things to keep focused on that are positive. The numbers big or small matter less than the people behind the numbers and the changes that are taking place in the lives of men, women and children impacted directly and indirectly by this blog and the people who pass through here. Keep up the good work.
V/r
Clarice
my thing is this: get involved with WHOMEVER u feel will make u happy! REGARDLESS! if its a black man, so be it. if its a white man, so be it! there is NO LAW sayin that u have to stay within ur own race! HOWEVER....it all comes down to preference! AND MY PREFERENCE is black men!
People need to stop focusing on who black men are dating!!! as long as people are happy that what matters. But i will be honest there was one point in my life where i would see a GOOD LOOKING black man, with a NOT SO ATTRACTIVE WM and i would be like WTH?!?!? are there not enough pretty black women? but i've grown past that. get urself involved with someone u connect with and someone u can see urself with in the long run..someone who makes u happy! who cares about the color!!
********correcting myself: would see a GOOD LOOKING black man, with a NOT SO ATTRACTIVE WW (white woman) and i would be like WTH?!?!?
Yawn at trolls. They are so boring. We are not listening to them, thank God.
Anonymous said...
What about Spike Lee and John Singleton?
What about them? What black woman's career have either of them protected? Have you not heard of the sexism allegations that both of them have gotten?
Spike Lee has had several male and female actor begin their careers with his films. Yet, he has also had women in very questionable roles (He has recently stated that he regrets the rape scene in "She's Gotta Have It". He said he would do it differently today).
Even his own (light skinned, green eyed, incidently) wife has questioned him on how women are portrayed in his films. She said this after the release of Girl 6.
As for John Singleton - his "Baby Boy" says it all - especially about all of the trolls in here. Most of his movies are about the 'hood' and I don't relate. He did direct "Rosewood" however, and more people should have seen that.
And yes, he was indeed married to Akousia Busia (Nettie from The Color Purple) and they had a very bitter divorce.
Anon@11:11 PM said: A black woman interested in (or already involved in) an interracial relationship DOES NOT CARE (or shouldn't) whether black men question black women's ability or willingness to love their children, husbands, cook, keep the house clean and sacrifice.
Why would she? Whatever black men think one way or another has nothing to do with her in reality.
Mekare (and ladies in general) for the simple fact that you're here at Black Women's IR Circle, tells me that you desire a relationship leading to marriage with a non colorist, intelligent, and loving White or other non black man.
Focus on THEM instead of what BM (damaged beyond repair and not) think and don't think.
Let these trolls debate amongst themselves.
Wise words worth repeating over and over. I love reading comments in my blog circles from Evia, to here to Classical One, but Classical One is right about how most of the discussions deters toward what black men do, say and feel.
WHO CARES!
Focus on the bright future ahead and wonderful possibilites that lie within OTHER possible mates. :-)
The Grey's spinoff is called Private Practice and here is a clip of that includes some of the IR oriented scenes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKXDVuL3oVE
( how cute is Chris Lowell-the surfer guy!)
They've since recast the BW roll and instead of the actress you see in the above clip, Broadway star Audra Mcdonald will be playing Naomi
Whoa! That's Merrin Dungey from Alias! They got rid of her? Sucks cause I'm a big fan. And daaaang is surfer dude HOTTT! Love the blondes mmm mmm mmm good.
Peridot said: I really think any of us who are interested should write letters "supporting" Shonda and let her know our ideas about BW and Bw/WM or XM characterizations on television and what we'd like to see! ;)
What a wonderful idea!! I don't know if the show is taking spec scripts, but that may be another avenue to try out as well.
Most of his movies are about the 'hood' and I don't relate.
Half of his movies have been 'hood' oriented, but movies like Higher Learning, 2 Fast 2 Furious, Four Brothers, and Shaft would not be viewed as 'hood' movies. His next movie is about the wrongful drug convictions in Tulia, Texas and his movie CAGE is about a black superhero.
"Whoa! That's Merrin Dungey from Alias! They got rid of her? "
- Yes, they said she didn't "pop" with audiences and also that the chemistry between her and Kate Walsh had not been good- and they're supposed to be best friends. I didn't notice that thought, but guess I'm not a good judge..
That episode of Grey's is going to re air on August 30 and Sept. 6 if anyone is interested in seeing the whole thing.
"And daaaang is surfer dude HOTTT! Love the blondes mmm mmm mmm good"
- I know, that surfer guy is absolutely delish!- I get all giddy and fangirlish seeing him and MD in those scenes and believe me I'm waay too old for that-LOL.
What about them? What black woman's career have either of them protected?
They are included among the black directors who have worked to get A.J. Johnson (a dark sista) on the big screen. Spike Lee put her in School Daze, Reginald Hudlin gave her a prominent role in House Party and Singleton gave her a prominent role in Baby Boy. She has only gotten small roles from other directors.
Singleton also gave Taraji Henson her first prominent role in Baby Boy then later gave her a role in Four Brothers.
Halle's first exposure came from Spike Lee in Jungle fever and next from Hudlin in Boomerang. Hudlin also gave Tisha Campbell her big screen start and later included her in Boomerang.
In Everybody Hates Chris, Tichina Arnold's career was restarted and Hudlin is a producer on it.
That is so funny about Martin Lawrence on Howard Stern because if I recall he had an episode on his show where a police officer was married to a black woman and he told the black woman - that she needed to come back home.
Hey! I just thought of a cool bm married to a cool bw. Trial attorney Billy Martin (he was the lead on the Chandra Levy case some years back that the media inundated us with) and his wife, Michel Martin. She's a correspondent for "Nightline" on ABC, I think? At least she was. Don't know what she's doing now. And, no, she is NOT very lightskinned. She has a short Afro and medium complexion. Sort of like him.
I can't stand Spike Lee! Most of his movies have the same theme running thru them about blacks selling drugs, all living in the projects, calling each other other the "N"-word. No thanks.
Trish
Thanks Miriam for posting those wise words from your religion. :)
So the first date is to find out if you are attracted to the guy only? Hmm.. well that does change things in a positive way. It does allow me to relax a bit more, but I do need to shore myself up with regards to rejection.
@ Halima
Aphrodite
just to say we are backing you all the way honey and also all those other bw out there struggling with some inclucated negative perception of themselves. You can be free!
Thank you so much. I am taking my time and pacing myself. It has been a lot to get my head around in a month or so, but it makes sense.
Internal compass is confused.
Seeking clarification.
I have heard the term gold digger bandied about a lot. I have an understanding of what that means - to me that would be a woman who is using a guy solely for his money.
Now bear with me because I don't know if everything I type that follows will make any kind of sense because I am processing random thoughts that are swirling around in my head...
In the past:
1. I tried to separate myself from women I felt were like that which reinforced the severe superwoman, do it yourself, upbringing that I had.
2. Also I have a series of events where I was pushed into things. I won't elaborate, but they made me resistant to even dealing with men and money.
3. I always have dealt with men who expected me to pay for everything and who have taken advantage of me financially- lets just say I have been a fool and paid dearly literally out of pocket and in other ways i.e. washing clothes, cooking meals etc for people who have never taken me on a date, given me a coupon for laundry detergent, or thrown a loaf of white bread on my front porch.
I don't know if the above was a reinforcing cycle or what.
In the present:
1. I came across a blog :) that said that a woman must choose the best possible mate - which I had never had before and included some info on what that entails.
I guess I am trying to figure out what is normal with regards to money as far as dating goes?
What is normal with regards to money as far as a marriage goes?
I don't want to be a gold digger, but I don't want to end up being dug either.
Some of the posts were in regards to men who make millions. I have never thought "Ok, I am going to marry a millionaire." I have however thought that one day with enough hard work I may become one. :)
But at the same time I don't want to hook up with some guy and end up with bad credit and on sleeping on skid row either.
I disagree with the poster on well to do bm marrying the receptionist/waitress. I was taken advantage of the most in certain ways when I was making the least amount of money.
How do you evaluate a guy financially? I am guessing that men are sensitive about these things? How do you know where to aim? I am finishing my education and I know that due to negative experiences and some esteem issues I maybe don't have an accurate picture of myself, but I don't want to aim too high with regards to a man such that I set myself up to be taken advantage of by someone way out of my league.
How do you determine the appropriate middle ground?
I hope I made sense.
Aphrodite said:
How do you evaluate a guy financially? I am guessing that men are sensitive about these things? How do you know where to aim? ...How do you determine the appropriate middle ground?
It's not hard. A wm expects that a woman will want to know what kind of provider he'll be.
During the course of your first conversation, it's completely appropriate to ask something like "So, what kind of work do you do?" or "So, where do you work?". That answer should be something like "I'm a diesel engine mechanic" or "I work for C&L construction" or "I'm an engineer". If you get an answer like that, you've got a ballpark idea of his income. Don't ask any more at this point; that would make him wonder. If he doesn't give you a real answer, if he's like, "Oh, whatever it takes", or acts offended, that is not good. The kind of man you're looking for will not mind telling you who he is, and he considers his job/employment to be part of that.
If you have arranged a mutual first date, for coffee and a chat, it's ok to go Dutch. If he wants to pick up the check, let him. That's normal wm behavior. But, it's not a bad sign if he just pays his half. If he wants you to pay, that's a very red flag for a wm. The kind of man you're looking for would never do that.
Just a few thoughts...hope it's helpful.
Another off topic question but where do you meet wm? More to the point attractive professional wm looking to date interracially? I am having difficult in that area.
where do you meet wm? More to the point attractive professional wm looking to date interracially?
Aphrodite said:
What is normal with regards to money as far as a marriage goes?
I don't want to be a gold digger, but I don't want to end up being dug either.
But at the same time I don't want to hook up with some guy and end up with bad credit and on sleeping on skid row either.
My response:
I can give you some examples from my marriage. My husband and I have been together about 3 years, and from the time we began dating, whenever we go out, he pays.
Whether it is coffee, dinner, the movies, the cute souvenir I just saw, the book at the bookstore, the new cd I saw in the window of the music store, the nice necklace I thought would look good on me, he takes care of it. It's what he likes doing. I never had to ask, it has never been an issue, in his mind, that is just what a man does for his lady.
He has never been wealthy, but he has always been able to put a roof over his head and meet his financial obligations. That is something I found important and appealing.
In terms of developing a long-term relationship, it takes time, of course, to learn about each other in various ways. During the course of our dating relationship, I had plenty of time to talk with and observe him.
I noticed he paid his bills on time, there were never collections people looking for him, he never had his credit cards rejected anywhere, all of which indicated that he was fiscally responsible.
As we started planning to marry, we spoke about finances more and more, about how we would handle them; neither of us had any serious debt. One weekend we had fun getting our free credit reports to compare who had the best rating. I won, by the way... :) Both of us are pretty good with finances, responsible about money, how we spend and save.
I am the one who is better at budgeting and so forth, so I came up with the budget, and I determined how much we should each put into the account for our joint expenses.
We each keep separate accounts, but we have a joint one for our joint expenses. Every month, I put in my share, and he gives me his. Our separate accounts are for our own use, but we agreed that if we want to spend more than $500, we have to chat with the other first. We also save money for major expenses that we can foresee, like vacations.
I'm so dorky! I had heard of this book, the Hard Questions: 100 Essential Questions to Ask Before You Say I Do, by Susan Piver. I got a copy, and I had us sit down to think about the answers, and she had a great chapter on finances.
*** Please excuse above mistake post ***
Creolenola said:
where do you meet wm? More to the point attractive professional wm looking to date interracially?
Good question. There really is no single place that comes to mind, but in your place, I'd go wherever they go. For instance, shop at an upscale market that has a good deli, including dinner items to take out; maybe use the dry cleaners and gas station in that same center. You'll pay more for your food, laundry and gas, but that's the kind of place they'll be found. They don't mind paying a little more for the convenience and service these places offer.
Maybe take up golf or tennis, skiing maybe.
It's not so much going to a special place at a certain time as it is being in the areas they frequent as much as possible. And another plus, you'll be doing things you need to do anyway :)
I like the advice Arthur gave you. I just wanted to add a few things that have to do with general attitude.
Don't be needy or desperate in attempting to meet men, not just outwardly, but also inwardly. Don't latch onto the first wm man you see or who expresses an interest.
If you're going to take up activities like tennis or skiing, golf, yatching, etc, make sure you enjoy these activities, don't just do them for the sake of meeting men. If you're a novice at them, don't be ashamed. It's okay to say that you are new to it, that it looks like something you might enjoy; and then throw yourself into the activity with as much passion as you can muster. To men who love these activities, women who try their darnest to be good at them are attractive, because shared passion can be a turn on.
If you're not the athletic type, then perhaps internet matchmaking sites might be a good place, though I am not familiar with them.
I have met men when I went solo in upscales coffee shops, libraries and bookstores, galerie openings, etc...
"During the course of your first conversation, it's completely appropriate to ask something like "So, what kind of work do you do?" or "So, where do you work?". That answer should be something like "I'm a diesel engine mechanic" or "I work for C&L construction" or "I'm an engineer". If you get an answer like that, you've got a ballpark idea of his income. Don't ask any more at this point; that would make him wonder. If he doesn't give you a real answer, if he's like, "Oh, whatever it takes", or acts offended, that is not good. The kind of man you're looking for will not mind telling you who he is, and he considers his job/employment to be part of that."
Amen to that, especially the bolded one. Most non-black men I have met and interracted with understand that it is normal for a woman to ask what a man does for a living.
If you've had a steady history of being taken advantage of financially, i'd say it's supremely important for you to raise your sense of self worth and as a result, your expectations of relationships. You really need to get it at a deep level that it is okay and normal to have a mate who not only can pull his own weight but can also be there for you financially if you need it. That doesn't make you a gold digger and that's one of the things that a man takes pride in doing.
If you've allowed yourself to be a mule and beast of burden in the past, time to bury that old misguided self. Mourn it, write its eulogy, and nurture your new sense of self-worth and femininity.
A friend of mine went through the same thing. She took incremental steps. After a string of relationships where she was financially taken advantage of, she dated one man who insisted on going dutch. Yes, that was progress over her previous relationships. Then after she grew comfortable with this, she moved on to a man who was a bit more generous, raising her comfort level by letting him buy her dinner once in a while. She eventually ended up with a great guy who treats her very well. She is not using him and she is not a gold digger. They both have very good jobs, and they got married last year.
Creolenola:
One more thing ... when you're "on patrol", be sure you're not wearing any rings. Even if it's obviously costume jewelry to go with your outfit, you're taking a chance. The kind of man you're looking for will not approach a woman if he thinks she's married, engaged or otherwise committed, and that's what rings mean to a man.
thanks for the tips, Arthur!
Useful and great article as always! Keep it up! I've just read a recent article about you on More Black Women are dating out. A very interesting read, too.
Bravo!
Aphrodite
i wouldnt worry too much about the term goldigger
it is the creation of bm who want bw to have very little expectation
if you are a goldigger for having expectation of men even preffering men to take the lion share of providing, then know that 95% of women of all races and creeds are the same boat, so u are in good company!
please do not over analyse this one, most sane men welcome women seeing them as 'bread winners' except the DBR!
Hello there cecelia
Hi, it's me again Old Europe :)
I like this blog, it's quite interesting.
>aphrodite: 1. I came across a blog :) that said that a woman must choose the best possible mate - which I had never had before and included some info on what that entails.
I think that has to be the main goal of every man and every women. You have to chose the best for your heart and for your soul. There are a lot of women and men, who are rich as hell, but also unhappy as hell. Money is important no doubt, but it is just one factor one part in our life. If you like to start a family in a few years, your partner should be able to sustain his family. Without a job or without a good education it's gonna be very difficult. Everywhere in the world.
Money is not everything. I don't know you at all, but women in general(and also men, kids, living creatures, all kind of cellular organism lol) likes to share love, affection, tenderness, romance, attention, all those things to be due to you, too.
>What is normal with regards to >money as far as a marriage goes?
Hey, that would be the next, next, next big step. First of all try to find out if he is emotionally the right guy for you. Figure out what his interests are. After that you can check out his future goals (career, job, family, friends, girlfriend, wife ---> YOU ;)
Marriage is too far away.
The main problem in marriage is, most of them are all too soon. When both parts are so much in love, it's easy to marry and say yes.
Personally I would prefere a marriage at a time, where we had already a conflict situation and we both know, how the reaction of the partner ist. Has he(she) contributet something to solve the problem or did he(she) run off and let you do all the work alone ? He has also to conduce to success of your relationship. It's very important that both of you keep together also in bad times. Sometimes this is really very hard work !
>I don't want to be a gold digger, >but I don't want to end up being >dug either.
That's a healthy, positive attitute. Stay the way you are.
> Some of the posts were in regards to men who make millions. I have never thought "Ok, I am going to marry a millionaire." I have however thought that one day with enough hard work I may become one. :)
That's a good idea. Perhaps we should ask Warren Buffett how to invest our little money.
Everything else concerning your partnership/relationship, your love, time will tell. You and your companion are spending time together and you will feel if you are in good hands and you like to share your time with him, that's it.
Ensure that you are also in the center of his interests like he is for you. A relationship should never be a one-street thing.
If you realize all the things you like and these ideas you have won't work with your current guy, you should think about ending the story. Just start again with another lovely guy and always remember your experiences and your knowledge of your past relationships.
That's it.
i wouldnt worry too much about the term goldigger
it is the creation of bm who want bw to have very little expectation
if you are a goldigger for having expectation of men even preffering men to take the lion share of providing, then know that 95% of women of all races and creeds are the same boat, so u are in good company!
please do not over analyse this one, most sane men welcome women seeing them as 'bread winners' except the DBR!
Thank you, Halima for this. This is why we MUST continue to talk about this phenomenon of the DBR mindset.
And the trolls and DBR supporters need not waste their time with me. LOL! They will NEVER succeed in moving me a hair away from my position on this because I KNOW that the overwhelming majority of the men who shortchange, mistreat, use, abuse, and abandon bw and their children ARE indeed black men and these men who do this are DBRs. Only a DAMAGED man would use, abuse, and abandon his OWN women and children. And these men don't see anything WRONG with doing this!! They do it and brag about it.
Unfortunately WAY too many bw see themselves and the world through the eyes of the DBRbm around them. This is a very ugly and deadly situation. The DBR mindset has now spread widely. It has become the "normal" mindset and behavior pattern in many black enclaves. Women are seen as a commodity to be exploited, abused, blamed, and then thrown away.
Unsuspecting sistas "think" that a DBRbm is a normal man whereas, he's VERY different from a normal man. VERY different. Unaware sistas "allow" these DBR men to dictate the terms of the relationship and prey on them, and sometimes on the children. (smh) Under those circumstances, I can PREDICT that the woman is ALWAYS going to end up used, abused, angry, feeling worthless,feeling something is wrong with her. This is not rocket science, sistas. This is guaranteed.
@ Aphrodite--it is NORMAL for a non-DBR man to pay for a date. I'm not talking about spending a lot of money. I think that the expense should be seriously kept down for the first 1 or 2 dates. There are MANY inexpensive and enjoyable outings. But most non-DBR men WANT to pay for the date. It's a normal part of the courtship ritual. This is a part of what a man does to impress the woman and make her feel special. A man who likes you will try to make YOU feel "special." He will try to convey to you in various little ways that he can and will take care of you, and this has very little to do with money or race.
For ex. on my first date with my husband, we went to a museum ($10) and spent a lot of time just walking around, talking--GETTING TO KNOW EACH OTHER. We learned things about each other. I was studying him and he was studying me as we looked at the beautiful art. LOL!
Wow! I think I'm going to blog on this topic. I don't think that some sistas realize what NORMAL man-woman relations are all about.
Keep in mind that much of what I say about NORMAL men also applies to my ex-husband, a black African man, and other nonwhite men I dated. So this has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.
Normal men exhibit behaviors that are in a customary range of behaviors, considered normal male behaviors throughout the world. DBR men are ABNORMAL. Their behaviors are the behaviors of a DESTRUCTIVE and deadly subculture. This is NOT black culture!!
Sistas need to realize that the DBR mindset is poisonous and they need to avoid ANYONE who exhibits that mindset and those behaviors--man, woman, or child.
"Wow! I think I'm going to blog on this topic. I don't think that some sistas realize what NORMAL man-woman relations are all about."
PLEASE blog on this topic Evia. It's painfully obvious a large percentage of BW don't know what normal man-woman relations are about.
A man should always pay for the date. In this way, a man is proving his ability to be a provider down the road. He's trying to impress the woman as he should.
At least that's been my personal experience and that of all of my non black friends.
None of us - and we're all happily and successfully married with children - have ever been asked to pay half and full? That's just unheard of.
A man who's really interested in you and likes you, wouldn't dream of not paying. He knows it's part of the universal mating ritual.
It makes a normal man feel proud that he can impress a woman and treat her in this way.
In the black "community" gender roles have been reversed to disastrous results.
Damaged beyond repair black men are not normal in any way shape or form.
"Normal men exhibit behaviors that are in a customary range of behaviors, considered normal male behaviors throughout the world. DBR men are ABNORMAL. Their behaviors are the behaviors of a DESTRUCTIVE and deadly subculture. This is NOT black culture!! "
Exactly.
I second that, Felicia!
That is why I described earlier in response to Aphrodite that in the 3 years my husband and I have been together, ever since we began dating, he has always paid.
He wouldn't dream of having his date/girlfriend/wife reach for her wallet to pay when he goes out with her. That is his job.
This was the example he saw while growing up. His mom never worked. His father "took care of his business" in making sure his wife and children were provided for.
Hi Aphrodite
Something I should have mentioned before, that Halima, Evia and PVW all just mentioned; if a normal man asks you out, he expects to pay for everything.
Everything they said about normal men wanting to pay for things is dead on. Read what they said, and believe it.
...however, if I ask a man out, I expect to organize and pay for the date. Over the years, I've heard stories from all kinds of women, and it is not one race of men that has the lock on cheapness. Several women report stories of men who either wanted to split the tab or get the woman to pay for it entirely. So.... it is a certain type of man women should be avoiding, irrespective of race. I always say stay away from cheap men for they are not only stingy with their money, but they are stingy with their emotions.
Ndel's World
I usually operate on the who asked who principal. If I ask someone out then it is understood I am taking the responsibility of paying and I would feel insulted if not allowed to do so. If I am asked out then it is understood that the person asking pays. For me that cuts down on confusion.
I definitely concur with all the ladies on financial expectations within heterosexual relationships.
I am a feminist, but to be honest, I let my politics unknowingly undermine me in my relationships with men. You can't always be fair. My only serious relationship for six and a half years was a result of me paying for the bulk of our dinner dates and outings. His excuse was I was loaded. I would be lucky if we went Dutch. When we went on trips abroad he would usually pay for the airfare and bitch about it in a passive aggressive way. When he showed generosity of paying for meals it was short lived, so I could never sit back and enjoy without being filled with anxiety in the back of my mind.
I knew I had to get out of the relationship (although it took me another couple of years to actually do it) when he was invited to a wedding. He teaches high school and one of his student's older siblings was getting married. The family said he is welcome to bring someone. He asked if I wanted to go and I said fine. He then had the nerve to ask me to give him fifty dollars for a wedding gift. I told him no and he flipped his lid. He couldn't understand how unreasonable I was being. He said if I won't give him the money then he wants me to pay for half of our upcoming trip to Europe later on that year. He already paid for the air tickets and the agreement was I would pay for all the other expenses, which btw, was more expensive than the plane tickets. The fact he used our trip as blackmail because I told him no to a wedding gift made me realize I was with one serious damaged person. I had such low self-esteem that I stayed out of fear thinking I couldn't do any better.
I now shake my head for my way of thinking back then. Dumping him was one of the best things I ever did. When I started dating again this year I let the men court me. Like Evia suggested, we picked inexpensive but nice places during our initial visits. I'm now starting to see just one terrific man and he wouldn't think of me paying for our outings. I can't even begin to describe how I feel. This time last year on my way to becoming a full fledged, unhappy Mammy in an emotionally abusive relationship, to going on dates and meeting quality men that led to the wonderful man who treats me with respect.
What's really funny is word got out that I'm seeing a white man. My ex sent me an email hoping that I wasn't given up on black men. I wrote back emphasizing to lose my email, telephone number, and never contact me again, but I had to laugh at that comment! Too many BM think the world revolves around them. I was always attracted to white men, the only difference is now I'm acting on it!
Even when I have asked guys out, the good ones always offered to at least pay half. Men will do that if they like you and they're grateful that you made the first step in asking them out. If they don't like you that much, they'll just sit back and let you pay for everything because they feel you had a better time than they did.
Don't get me wrong, I occasionally paid for my guys, but it was on special occasions, like a treat for them, not like a habit or some kind of expected feminist thing to do.
"What's really funny is word got out that I'm seeing a white man. My ex sent me an email hoping that I wasn't given up on black men. "
Ha, now that is too hilarious, I'm glad you told him just what he could do about that. Thanks for your story and congrats on meeting men who treat you in a much more appropriate manner.
re:Aiming too high.
Maybe because we have a similar past, but I caught this phrase "aiming too high" the most.
I wish I had what to say, but I only have my own experience: not to put my own invisible ceiling for myself.
The man, YOUR man, could be a millionaire who has a very caring and soft demeanor that you can deal with -even if he has lots of money.
Oops -my previous post, was to Aphrodite
Here's another interesting source of info that I found useful.
http://www.9types.com/homepage.actual.html
Its about personality types, it helped me to realize my pitfalls, and what I could and couldn't really change about myself.
Peridot said...
"Whoa! That's Merrin Dungey from Alias! They got rid of her? "
- Yes, they said she didn't "pop" with audiences and also that the chemistry between her and Kate Walsh had not been good- and they're supposed to be best friends. I didn't notice that thought, but guess I'm not a good judge.."
Yeah, I am sure that is just their way of saying she wasn't the typical "friend of ww." Translation: she didn't play the role with enough deference and cowtowing to the almighty ww. It just seems that in most shows with bw acting as the "friend" to ww, they are simply there as a sounding board and are basically human wallpaper. This re-casting together with the story that the whole surfer dude story is going to be downplayed, which probably means, NOT GONNA HAPPEN, doesn't give me too much hope for any BW IRR love on this new show.
Why is it that non-black audiences seem to find bw so off-putting and are unable to accept a non-stereotypical bw? All white people seem to want to see is the loud, ghetto, eye-rolling, finger snapping, neck popping bw. Case in point VH-1. They continue to make shows like Flavor of Love, which is coming back for a 3rd season. That show just won't die. It is like the Michael Myers of Reality TV. Also, they are making a second season of I love NY.
What is really sad is that VH-1 was going to have an IRR reality show which featured a wm looking for his black princess. As I understand it they were all gun hoe about the show, but when they found out they it would feature educated bw, they pulled the plug. WTF!! I am so tired of bw being typecasted as sapphires, ghettohood rats and hoes. Enough is Enough. Here is a link to the story.
http://www.vh1realityworld.com/2007/08/10/interracial-love-reality-show-editorial/
The story was allegely leaked by a black female staff member who works at VH1. Here is the statement from her myspace page:
"I just want it to be known I leaked the story about vh1 turning down this reality show “Interracial Love”. A close friend of mine works in the New Development Department of VH1 she told me that vh1 had interest in this show until they found out that it would be showing educated Black Women. Once they received the Treatment for the show and show that this would not be a ghetto minded show they turned it down. I was also told that vh1 said this “White America can only see black women as guetto having educated Black women on this show will not sell. How is it that a white man sitting behind a desk tell us black people what we can and can’t watch. I am so tired of networks like this making a joke out of black women. Is it not true that all their shows about black women are type casted as ghetto? I think vh1 finally got their hand caught in the cookie jar. I am glad my friend told me what happened with this show. It is very funny to me what white people say and thing behind closed doors."
I think we should all show our displeasure to VH1, especially in light of the fact that they are superquick to feature stereotypes of BW.
-Prettyislandgirl
Aphrodite said...
Internal compass is confused... I always have dealt with men who expected me to pay for everything and who have taken advantage of me financially ...I don't want to be a gold digger, but I don't want to end up being dug either.
Ndelible said...
...it is a certain type of man women should be avoiding, irrespective of race....stay away from cheap men for they are not only stingy with their money, but they are stingy with their emotions.
Felicia said...
It's painfully obvious a large percentage of BW don't know what normal man-woman relations are about...A man should always pay for the date. In this way, a man is proving his ability to be a provider down the road. He's trying to impress the woman as he should....A man who's really interested in you and likes you, wouldn't dream of not paying....
It makes a normal man feel proud that he can impress a woman and treat her in this way.
...In the black "community" gender roles have been reversed to disastrous results....Damaged beyond repair black men are not normal in any way shape or form.
----------------------------------
Are you listening Aphrodite?
Real GOOD Men enjoy being providers. It makes them feel good. The ability to provide for himself and his woman or family is an intergral part of a GOOD MAN's identity.
I dare say the main reason many men go out and struggle in this world to make money is for women, to appeal to women.
And I have seen over and over again that regardless of the "race" of the man, if he is truly in love with a woman, he simply wants to give her everything. A Good Man if he loves you will do what ever he can to make sure you're happy. Your happiness is his pleasure.
I think the point here is that many women simply have not seen healthy, loving relationships in action. The only models they've had are DBR men.
These DBR men are the golddiggers.
Another thing, I think alot of the resentment of bm who marry wm comes from the knowledge that many of the well off bm are really taking care of these women in the way I've described. But there is likely a suspicion that if these same bm were with a bw , they would not treat the bw nearly as well.
The point here is let bm date who they want. Who are YOU going to date? And do you have enough self respect not to be involved with DBR men and find men who want so much to make you happy.
Another point. There are alot of men LOOKING FOR GOLDDIGGERS. In other words these men often believe that the only thing they have to offer women is money, or they have been raised to believe that women only care about money. This type of men really turn me off. They're often very shallow, and deep down think of women as whores that can be bought.
I agree that a blog should be done on this because obvious there are too many women who can't identify a GOOD MAN.
Let Love Rule said:
"I agree that a blog should be done on this because obvious there are too many women who can't identify a GOOD MAN."
Well, we're focusing on just one aspect of a good man. There are men who will pay for everything, give you presents, etc., but emotionally, they are abusive. Soooo, a man is not gold just because he pays for things. Indeed, some men who pay for everything think they are purchasing you - and hence, become very controlling. A good man is good in heart and fair in all other matters.
Ndel's World
"A good man is good in the heart..."
Ndelible, I think i'm going to keep this quote!
Ndelible said...
There are men who will pay for everything, give you presents, etc., but emotionally, they are abusive. ... Indeed, some men who pay for everything think they are purchasing you -
I totally agree. Which was my point about men seeking golddiggers. They tend to be one dimensional and think money gives them the liberty to do anything.
And I'm not advocating that women only look for men who will pay for everything or are rich.
You can be with a man who has a heart of gold who is not trying to buy and use you. I will never go back to be the one who pays for the bulk of dates.
I also use to be the kind of woman who would ask men out and I only ended up being embarrassed by flat out rejection or being the one who did the bulk of the work to make something happen. Ladies, I urge you to let the man court you. It has done wonders for me. I'm never going back to the way I use to operate with men.
BW in particular do not have healthy models of male-female partnerships to reference from. Some of us have had the good fortune to be raised in healthy family environments where our confidence was not undermined and to believe we are the best and anyone would be lucky to have us. Unfortunately there are too many of us who have been raised just the opposite (raising hand). This is one of the key reasons why black women are asking for permission to live their life to the fullest because they don't want to piss off members of the black community, which may even include their family. My mother lived her life this way and it cost her her life at only 52 years old. Her life was warning sign for me of what NOT to repeat. Had I stayed with my abusive ex I would have inevitably winded up like her.
I'm sorry, but I have only life to live and I'm going to live it to the fullest. I'm not here to win a popularity contest and to get a pat on the head at my funeral for being a dutiful BW-like my mom. I dream too big to let that tragedy happen.
The best is yet to come for me. Make sure that it will also happen for you.
Thank you for all the responses:
Arthur: Thanks for sharing that info. I had no idea that would be considered and innocent question. I always thought it was the question to avoid. :)
Pioneervalleywoman: Thanks for providing examples from your relationship. It sounds like you have a wonderful guy and it has given me something to mull over. :) I googled the book you mentioned and I am thinking of purchasing it.
Anon @ 4:12AM: I am working on raising my esteem in this area. :) I have just never heard of such until reading these blogs. There was never a balance. All I saw were extremes: either men and women trading sex for money or a man completely loafing off of a woman and I don't want either of those options. So I want to know what's normal in a loving relationship/marriage.
Hello Halima: I wish I could see this dynamic in action. I can intellectualize it, but I am trying to picture that for myself. I did figure that maybe some of the "gold digger" stuff being thrown about was instigated by DBRBM, but I have a record in my head from growing up that says I don't want to be that kind of woman- the other extreme I mentioned above to anon and that I didn't want to scare a guy away by asking/wondering about his finances. Thanks for the support and for letting me know that most women expect for the guy to be a breadwinner.
Old Europe: It's interesting reading your post because I have felt at different times that things were or would be a one way street with some men. Unfortunately, I can tell some horror stories. I honestly can say that I have never been in a "relationship". I think I have had almost exclusively hook ups-except I didn't know they were hook ups. I thought that was the way things went. Except it didn't feel good and lets say- there are horror stories. The closest thing I could call an exclusive relationship lasted for a week.
Its interesting that you mentioned emotions. That is important to me, but I have never had that from a guy. All the men I have dealt with were very emotionally unavailable to put it mildly.
If I was upset about something that had nothing to do with them and was seeking comfort, support or even advice they would leave, hurry off the phone or tell me to "man up". Anything to shut me up. The last time this happened I was in the middle of a medical crisis (that I am still in denial about) my doctor was very upset - which upset me all the more and I was telling a "male friend" about it and he told me there was no use in crying about it. Considering the gravity of the situation, all I could do was cry.
So I don't know what that would be like either.
OK, MORE INTERNAL COMPASS CONFUSION (LOL) SEEKING CLARIFICATION
I guess my next question is how do you evaluate a guy from an emotional standpoint without getting burned in the process? Or is that just a crap shoot? LOL
I was starting to wonder if you should expect anything from a guy emotionally.
Thanks for the tips on observing through a conflict. That makes sense.
I also agree that marriage can happen too quickly in some instances, but how do you gauge the time frame? What is reasonable? I don't want to be one of those 10-15 year couples that have never married.
Evia, I would greatly appreciate you blogging on this issue and you are right in that they brag about it. I can remember being upset over some instances of being taken advantage of and telling other men in hopes of gaining insight into where I went wrong and how I can prevent it from happening again and the only feedback I got was either praise or criticism of the jerks' technique used in swindling me. The part that really hurt was that this kind of response came from a family member once. I would think he would be protective of me as his relative, but he joined sides with the guy- saying he didn't have game and he should have done it this way instead. I was so shocked and I am still hurt over that.
"It's a normal part of the courtship ritual. This is a part of what a man does to impress the woman and make her feel special. A man who likes you will try to make YOU feel "special." He will try to convey to you in various little ways that he can and will take care of you, and this has very little to do with money or race."
Thank you for your insight. I have never felt that in dealing with a guy. It seems like it will be a long road for me trying to get from here to there.
Felicia: I am trying to get my head around it. :) It is mind boggling to me how much craziness I now realize I have dealt with before coming to this blog. I did think this was all normal and that - it just had to be dealt with.
Arthur: I'm reading and processing. :)
NDelible: Is there a way to spot the cheap man before getting into an embarrassing situation?
Creolenola: Thanks for sharing your ground rules.
Phoenix: Wow, you have been through a lot. Good for you for heading for greener pastures. He sounds awful. I am sorry you went through that.
Miriam, you are so sweet. Thanks for believing in me that much. :=)
Yes, let love rule, I am listening. I am hearing loud and clear. :)
"I also use to be the kind of woman who would ask men out and I only ended up being embarrassed by flat out rejection or being the one who did the bulk of the work to make something happen."
Phoenix how did you shift? What was that process like?
Aphrodite, there is no escaping getting hurt in life. You can possibly meet a great guy and for some reason it doesn't work out. It's not the end of the world. The difference is how do you handle being hurt, especially if the person misled and mistreated you. You can sniff out an abuser early on in the relationship. You don't have to pathologically look for the worse in a guy when you're getting to know him, but just pay attention to the way he treats you. Take stock in his personality and attitude. If a red flag goes off in your head pay attention to it. I have very good instincts but I purposely ignored them in the past because my desperation to be loved took priority. There's nothing shameful in wanting love but you have to love yourself first in order not to tolerate mistreatment from others. I took the journey of loving myself by surrounding myself with friends who had my best interest at heart and took up meditation and affirmations. Meditation may not be for you but it really helped me to deal with the anger and pain of being abused.
The biggest asset one can have is patience. Even the most skilled abuser/manipulator will show their true colors as time wears on. Do not rush into things with a person and holding off sex gives you more clarity in assessing a person. Sex too early can just complicate things.
You have been through a lot and you're still here, which tells me you're strong and was meant for bigger and better things in life.
i wouldnt worry too much about the term goldigger
it is the creation of bm who want bw to have very little expectation
Not correct. The term, as used in this context, is a creation of white men back in the 1920s.
Has anyone read the article below? What are the opinions of this hip hop artist?
http://top40-charts.com/news.php?nid=25439
Another quote from the same blog listed before (this time, for laughs)
" Sometimes the best advice for women is in the words of Grace Jones from Conan the Destroyer. Grace Jones played an Amazon warrior, and a spoiled princess asked her how to get a man. Grace Jones's bold response was, "Grab him and take him." "
Lol at the women on this blog, a blog you have to search and come on the internet for, being such a bad example and getting bw to date men who aren't black but men on tv, movies, who constantly make it a point to whine about not having nonblack particularly white female love interests and taking every opportunity to proclaim how they love all women are less of a influence on bm.
It's also funny to note how bw pretty much go along with themselves being shown as last option and even only then a viable option to jailbirds, drug addicts, and men of that ilk. Then wondering why bm movies stars, directors, producers, and the like show their bm characters with women that aren't black. WW don't have to go through that. WW would never be urged to support men who show antagonistic images of ww or exclusively portray themselves with nonwhite love interests. JLo was popular she always except for Selena was cast as an Italian or some other exotic white.
Why is it understood that ww don't have to support men who wouldn't date them in real life or on screen and films marketed to them should reflect that but when it comes to bw we should stop being so picky and obsessed with minutia. Why do bm still get to carry grudges against alice walker and terry mcmillan for perceived slights years later and their ire is understood and supported by bw and bw even say the most horrible things about these women and other free thinkers like them.
This is exactly why we are always the mules because we always accept the burden.
Notice how even when bw marry out they are expected to use their husband's resources and connections for the "community" but bm have carte blanche to use their money to their own pleasure.
So dating out ist still no great thing if you allow other black people to use you as a puppet.
This is exactly why we are always the mules because we always accept the burden.
I don't accept ANY burden that's not mine and other BW don't have to either. They can lay their burdens down any time they want. But first they must stop caring about (and believing in) this mythical "black community" out there.
IMO ones community ideally should consist of people you can count on being there for you, and supporting you in achieving your highest potential and well being on a consistent basis. Relationships based on reciprocity and fairness and mutual love and respect.
Notice how even when bw marry out they are expected to use their husband's resources and connections for the "community" but bm have carte blanche to use their money to their own pleasure.
What BW and WM do with their money and resources is no one else's' business.
So dating out ist still no great thing if you allow other black people to use you as a puppet.
Agreed. What's great is BW refusing to be anyone else's puppet. Living joyful lives free of guilt and other peoples burdens.
Phoenix Sun said...
Aphrodite, there is no escaping getting hurt in life. You can possibly meet a great guy and for some reason it doesn't work out. It's not the end of the world. The difference is how do you handle being hurt, especially if the person misled and mistreated you. You can sniff out an abuser early on in the relationship. You don't have to pathologically look for the worse in a guy when you're getting to know him, but just pay attention to the way he treats you. Take stock in his personality and attitude. If a red flag goes off in your head pay attention to it. I have very good instincts but I purposely ignored them in the past because my desperation to be loved took priority. There's nothing shameful in wanting love but you have to love yourself first in order not to tolerate mistreatment from others. I took the journey of loving myself by surrounding myself with friends who had my best interest at heart and took up meditation and affirmations. Meditation may not be for you but it really helped me to deal with the anger and pain of being abused.
The biggest asset one can have is patience. Even the most skilled abuser/manipulator will show their true colors as time wears on. Do not rush into things with a person and holding off sex gives you more clarity in assessing a person. Sex too early can just complicate things."
Phoenix Sun, I agree with practically everything you said here.
To anon 4:13pm
She did not mean the literal sense of the word (as I suspect you know) She was talking about the modern connotation of the word as it is used now, to demean, confuse and belittle bw into aquiesing with almost nothing!
Afrodite i am so proud of you for stepping up and realizing that you deserve better kudos to you, and god bless....
ladies thank you so much for helping a sister and trying to reach her with love and compassion. i was on another site the other day and a oblivious depressed young woman was talking about how badly dbr bm had treated her and reaching out for help The bm came out like sharks smelling blood and ripped her to shreds for daring to air any dirty laundry in front of the white folks ( see they don't want mainstream people to know how horrible they really are) The few white men on the board, and a few sisters) almost had to fight to give comfort to this girl, with the so called brothers saying things like "we don't feel sorry for yo' black ass you should'na been so stupid...
It was so sad.. We might as well retire that rediculous word "brother" most of them are no brothers of mine.
aphrodite, I have found that the first clue is that first date if you don't know him well. Observe him. If you have the chance to observe him before you go out, listen for clues on how he treated other women in his life. Did he get upset over a trip and the cost? Does he continually want to count down to the penny in group eating situations? Is he constantly talking about money? These are important clues.
However, if you don't have the chance to observe him before going out, be prepared to pay for yourself. It it's just coffee, it might be difficult to tell what his money attitudes are. A meal is a better gauge. A guy friend once said, on the first few dates, that's the time women should order anything you want!!!! Burger King comes later!!!
For instance, on my last date, I didn't get the chance to observe him beforehand, so I went in blind. He picked the restaurant, after I said I wanted to "dress up". Thank goodness for the Net, so I was able to look the place up, its menu and the prices. It was a more expensive place than I would have picked. I mentally prepared myself to pay for half if not all of the bill, just to be sure. When we got there and started ordering, I waited until he indicated which dish he was picking - one of the most expensive, with a pasta to start. Once he ordered the most expensive entree for himself, I felt more comfortable to order what I wanted. We went on to split a salad and dessert. He went for the bill first; I offered to pick up half of the bill and he declined. I offered to buy him a drink or cup of coffee, his choice and that sealed the deal. We're going out again tonight.
Pioneervalleywoman: Thanks for providing examples from your relationship. It sounds like you have a wonderful guy and it has given me something to mull over. :) I googled the book you mentioned and I am thinking of purchasing it.
My response: You're quite welcome. I also have the names of other books on my blog, some of which are particularly geared towards women who have not had positive relationships with men, ie., have not seen healthy relationships in the home, or who have not had good relationships with their fathers and other male relatives, the men who were supposed to validate them and provide a standard by which to judge male behavior.
Hey ndelible !
You seem to have this meeting guys thing down to a T,
i think i got a role for you. Look out for some eligible bachelors out there for us!
Halima,
I have one - a great 23 yo, a med student at USC. Great guy who loves BW. Anyone in the 23-30 age range in the greater LA area? I think he's a gem; busy yes, but a gem nonetheless. I'll collect them all, I love men and think they have a hard time of it - imagine how difficult it is to approach a woman out the blue! It's hard. Try it once. It's heartstopping!
And ladies, I'll pass on one piece of advice my momma gave me - have at least one in the bush - you can take that anyway you wish. She doesn't remember this one: sleep with every man but the one you want to marry. I think she was on to something with that. I don't know what, but something....
I advocate dating at least two men at a time, that way you don't focus too much on one man. That can kill a relationship. The one that is meant to be will win out in the end.
Ok ladies ndelible has be so kind as to give us one. Now you are going to have to swing by ndels blog (follow her link), if you need further info and contact details!
Afrodite,
I am really happy you are starting to spread your wings and i am saying a prayer for your recovery from dbr bm. Please take evia's advise and put off sex as long as you can when it comes to a relationship. It will help you keep a clear head and better evaluate the man. I know some people may advocate sleeping with many men, Please don't do it! Don't ever pass yourself around you are far to precious and valuable to just give samples...
Keep your faith, frequent places where you are likely to encounter a better class of men and smile. Be open and approachable and he will find you.
Good luck my sister and please let us know how it goes..-god bless sara
Also just to mention. you all need to have a 'dating' email address. i suggest one for each person of interest, so that you can keep control of proceedings and close the account if necessary.
I've been thinking about a post on IR and the men who are open to them. Of course, it would be completely from my point of view - here in liberal Los Angeles; not from other parts of the country. To find out other's experiences is why I read blogs such as yours, in addition to finally seeing women like me who prefer WM. For years, I didn't see me. Thank goodness for the Net!
Ndel's World
Another quote from the same blog listed before (this time, for laughs)
" Sometimes the best advice for women is in the words of Grace Jones from Conan the Destroyer. Grace Jones played an Amazon warrior, and a spoiled princess asked her how to get a man. Grace Jones's bold response was, "Grab him and take him." "
Now that's funny. I remember that scene, come to think.
Aphrodite said:
OK, MORE INTERNAL COMPASS CONFUSION (LOL) SEEKING CLARIFICATION
I guess my next question is how do you evaluate a guy from an emotional standpoint without getting burned in the process? Or is that just a crap shoot? LOL I was starting to wonder if you should expect anything from a guy emotionally.
I also agree that marriage can happen too quickly in some instances, but how do you gauge the time frame? What is reasonable? I don't want to be one of those 10-15 year couples that have never married.
My response:
It takes time to get to know someone, and where he is emotionally. The first few dates should just be about getting to know him in a general sense, and avoid having sex too soon!
Some important questions to get a sense of where he is emotionally, outside of the basic: Where is he from? Where was he raised? What is his family background? Where does he work? Who are the important people in his life--family and friends.
Questions that go to the emotional stuff, as you get to know him much better, ie., several dates, several months--What does he like about his life? What would he most like to change? Does he get along with his family? How does he treat you, and others?
How does he handle conflict/difficulties? Has he had any major crises? What were they, how did he handle them? What are his goals for the future?
You also want to know of course, what kind of man is he--ethically, morally, which can include his political views. These can be very informative of where he is emotionally, and how he deals with people, and how he might deal with you! So observe, listen and ponder!
You don't want to do an inquisition, but also don't worry that some of these questions might seem nosy. A man who is serious about dating and finding a long term relationship will want you to know about him, because if you become his long term partner, ie., his wife, you will know (and will need to know) a lot more about him.
And if you have no questions about him, his life and his future, he'll wonder why--is it that you are not interested, or don't care to know, you'd rather be superficial?
It's better to know as much as you can about him now, and think about how you feel about it, than to become serious and then realize several years later that it was a mistake.
Stay away from men who don't seem to want to work towards intimacy (and it's not just the physical I'm talking about here, but the issues raised by the questions I suggested)--they all go to developing intimacy with someone who could become a long-term partner.
Oh, and another thing, about timing, ie., how long to date before you get engaged, that of course depends on the relationship, but to start thinking about marriage after a year of dating, is a good rule of thumb, provided it is a good relationship which you think can lead to marriage.
Don't stay in a bad or going-nowhere relationship, hoping it will get better! This is your life here, and you have to be brutal.
It is important that you pick up hints while you are getting to know him, whether marriage is something he even wants...Ask him about where he sees himself in the next few years, that relates to his goals, and marriage might be one of them, along with a promotion, buying a house, etc., all of those things which can give you a sense of his stability, if he is long-term material.
If a guy says from the beginning, he doesn't want marriage, or don't stick around forever hoping to change his mind....
Anon at 4:55:
Next time reread your writing and edit for clarity before you push that publish button.
I wonder if matchmaking also takes a year of dating before engagement?
I really don't know.
Admittedly, I also went through a matchmaker but it was different circumstances. We only dated six times then got engaged. LOL
However, i must admit I had some really sleuthy friends who dug up info on him while we were dating, in addition to my own info that I got. so the time it took for me to get a well rounded picture of my husband was shorter.
**I am NOT recommending this time span**
But, I wonder if a religious based matchmaking, or any matchmaking would help things to go a bit faster because you already put qualifiers out to the matcher beforehand.
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Also, for such a sensitive, caring and supportive environment, I wish Anons would understand that callous, cynical, or insensitive remarks are not appreciated.
Many of the posters on this site seem to be marriage minded. Are there any other bw like me who are not looking at marriage as an option but looking for sound long term relationships? I am not against marriage but I would also like to hear from women who are not looking to get married but who are still looking for relationships. lol. And before I get responses let me tell you I am in my mid 30's, well educated, childless, and I grew up in a household with both my mommy and daddy (who are still a happy couple.) I just think marriage is not for everyone and that some bw are not interested in that aspect of life but still want to meet men who want good solid relationships. So if there are other posters who are not into the married life then jump on and post. creolenola@yahoo.com
I think that 6 months is long enough for typical people to know whether they can possibly have a future together. Naturally, age factors into this. Also, this depends on how much time you spend with each other, the settings you're in with each other, and whether you're "studying" the man, and whether he's studying you. I think a woman should make sure that she's able to observe a prospective marital partner in a variety of settings, with friends, family, and in general in a host of social situations, so that you can see how he handles stress, anger, money, other relationships, etc.
Both of my husbands started talking "commitment talk" to me within 4 months. However, I spent a lot of constant time with these guy in the course of those months. With my current husband, there was absolutely no intercourse. I told him UPFRONT that I strongly felt that sex would need to wait until we had had a chance to develop the relationship on other fronts because once sex enters the picture, it monopolizes the focus. This is why some people find out later that they don't know the person--because they've allowed sex to take over a lion's share of the relationship's time, energy, and focus. And sex alone is not enough to sustain a relationship through all the trials and tribulations of life, children, illness, ups and downs, of life, etc. You need to be very supportive friends to each other who are heavily invested in each other and in your children.
@Aphrodite, if a man is really liking you or loving you, he will "show" it in various ways and a typical woman feels it. Remember that 'love is supposed to make you feel good.' If a man claims he loves you and you're not feeling good with him or about him, MOST (at least 80% of the time), either you're just not into him or he's not being genuine.
Aphrodite,
if he treats you like you're a big treasure, if he loves to be with you because every single moment with you is the greatest gift on earth, if he respects that you don't like to have sex until you're ready for this and if he likes to hear your voice even if you call him at three o'clock in the morning, he's the one.
evia wrote " 'love is supposed to make you feel good.'" ok, that's the same in short :)
Now you know, what the point is.
There are so many books written about love, but no one really can explain it. It's so wonderful on the one side, but it can be also very terrible. You said you have had some really bad experiences. I'm so sorry and I'm really sad to read about it.
Heads up, aphrodite. It's time for a turn-around.
Your heart has guided you over here to some wonderful people who all like to help you and who gave you some very important advices. Your heart will follow the lead through the rest of the process. Don't put yourself under pressure. If you hesitate or doubt, just let it be. You can't enforce these things. You have enough time to find the right guy.
And don't worry about making mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. That's our nature, right ?
In the greek mythology Aphrodite is the goddess of love and beauty and that is exactly what you are ;-)
You're a wonderful woman with a beautiful mind. let it flow.
Aphrodite said...
If I was upset about something ... seeking comfort... support or even advice they would leave, hurry off the phone or tell me to "man up". Anything to shut me up....I was in the middle of a medical crisis (that I am still in denial about)... a "male friend" ...he told me there was no use in crying about it...
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It breaks my heart to hear this. The people you've dealt with are just not that evolved. They are toxic. And as the saying goes misery loves company. They will bring you down at every turn. STAY AWAY FROM THESE PEOPLE.
You deserve better. That's what you're hopefully learning.
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Phoenix Sun said...
I took the journey of loving myself by surrounding myself with friends who had my best interest at heart and took up meditation and affirmations.
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Yes. Take time to work on and heal yourself from these awful relationships. You can rebirth yoourself.
There is a wonderful book called, How to be your own best friend. Be a friend to yourself first, love yourself and you won't allow others to treat you in this manner.
Learn to be happy and peaceful within yourself, then you can more easily identify these things in others.
I think pioneervalleywoman 7:44 and old europe 10:59 have it right.
Love should feel good. Look for men who are secure within themselves and have happy, stable lives.
I think Ndelible's date lightly approach is intriguing. That's what most men do. Dating "lightly" that is not looking for a LTR, gives you a chance to meet many different men . Thus you can learn how to evaluate them.
I don't advocate sleeping with any man unless you're really atracted and psychologically prepared to deal with any reprecussions. You should never feel used in the end, only satisfied, or at least humored if the guy is a bad lover.
The point is that you have every right to be happy and to TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF.
Many of the posters on this site seem to be marriage minded. Are there any other bw like me who are not looking at marriage as an option but looking for sound long term relationships? I am not against marriage but I would also like to hear from women who are not looking to get married but who are still looking for relationships. lol. And before I get responses let me tell you I am in my mid 30's, well educated, childless, and I grew up in a household with both my mommy and daddy (who are still a happy couple.) I just think marriage is not for everyone and that some bw are not interested in that aspect of life but still want to meet men who want good solid relationships. So if there are other posters who are not into the married life then jump on and post.
That would be me. I'm in my late twenties, well educated, have a three year old and have very little desire to be married...so I understand ur pain..lol.
Not looking for marriage but a long term committed relationship is difficult to maneuveur to say the least.
I think all the same advice as far as evaluating men still applies but I think u're still left with ohter issues (do u "shack up" how do u know he's really into u and not just waiting around for a woman he wants to marry, how do you navigate money issues, etc) that are unique to the "we're together but we're not getting married" club.
SO I hear ya and am in the same boat.
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